Am I the only passenger who prefers / preferred Pacers to Sprinters ?

[Mcr Warrior]

As for the Pacers...

Any remaining should be towed up to Salisbury Plain and used by the British Army as target practice...

 

[Iskra]

Yes, 150's are my most disliked units as you have a poor view - especially forwards - and cramped legroom too. I liked Class 144's, and 142's were preferable to a 150 but nothing else. I like classes 153/155/156/158/159 although to varying extents.

 

[islandmonkey]

Thankfully I never managed to find myself on a Pacer. As for the class 150, they do find themselves fitting a lot of the Cornish branch lines rather well for example. But to be used on Leeds-Sheffield Northern services is not what I expect from the railways. A 158 feels more suited to that sort of intercity operation.

 

[AHBD]

There was an article in a railway magazine arguing that overall, withveg twice as much wheel replacements (but of half the wheels cf the 150) and the required modifications etc, running costs, etc, pacers didn't work out any cheaper than the more conventional 150s, so BR should just have built 150s....

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was an article in a railway magazine arguing that overall, withveg twice as much wheel replacements (but of half the wheels cf the 150) and the required modifications etc, running costs, etc, pacers didn't work out any cheaper than the more conventional 150s, so BR should just have built 150s....

Wasn't it more like that they were going to build 150-like DEMUs (I forget the class), but went cheap on Pacers, then along came the "good compromise" 150 as a hybrid of the two, i.e. the body of the original with a cheaper driveline? Might have been the best bet to do that in the first place, but lessons sometimes need learning.

 

[AHBD]

Wasn't it more like that they were going to build 150-like DEMUs (I forget the class), but went cheap on Pacers, then along came the "good compromise" 150 as a hybrid of the two, i.e. the body of the original with a cheaper driveline? Might have been the best bet to do that in the first place, but lessons sometimes need learning.

The article was in Modern Railways June 2022 'Four wheels on my wagon' page 40 and to me seemed to refer mainly to the pacer and 150s (which according to wiki both entered service in 1984). He did have a few lines just referring to sprinters which is ambiguous ?

 

[danielnez1]

Pacers and Sprinters are very much a product of their time, trains produced on the cheap (in the case of the Pacers, far too cheaply), using existing tech and designs. BR at the time was too cash strapped to do anything else it seems. Of all of the trains produced in that era, I dislike the 156 the most, for a long distance unit, they really should have had better sound insulation and air conditioning.

You can't really fault the overall performance of the Sprinters, but they are now past their design life and we should expect better than what they provide.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Wasn't it more like that they were going to build 150-like DEMUs (I forget the class), but went cheap on Pacers, then along came the "good compromise" 150 as a hybrid of the two, i.e. the body of the original with a cheaper driveline? Might have been the best bet to do that in the first place, but lessons sometimes need learning.

I remember reading somewhere (but can't recall where, maybe past discussion on here) that in the 80s GMPTE wanted a variant of the 210 which could also run off the overheads where present. Don't recall any mention of a proposed class number, but presumably not 210 due to being (in modern parlance) a bi-mode.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Yes, 150's are my most disliked units as you have a poor view - especially forwards - and cramped legroom too. I liked Class 144's, and 142's were preferable to a 150 but nothing else. I like classes 153/155/156/158/159 although to varying extents.

Agreed with pretty much all of this.

 

[childwallblues]

Give me a Pacer any day. Before electrification we had many of them operating out of Liverpool Lime Street both up to Blackpool North and on the Chat Moss. When we had through services to Stalybridge and Huddersfield it was not unusual if a Pacer turned up for the 57 mile journey into West Yorkshire.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that a 3 carriage 144 was undoubtedly better than a 2 carriage 150.

 

[Seehof]

Any drivers on here who much preferred driving Pacers to 150s?! Pacers were a wonderful responsive little machine that would do exactly what you wanted when you wanted!
As a passenger I loved travelling in a Pacer especially those with bus type seats.

 

[Invincible]

They were all built to match a budget, a budget issued from "up above" to replace first-generation dmus, the budget did not facilitate a 1 : 1 replacement of old for new.
As for the Pacers, they acquired a fan club of bashers as their time drew near, sadly interrupted by the lock down conditions of Covid. I miss their exciting zig-zag motion as they sped along, and their reliability, the second life is with the heritage railways who will celebrate the low running costs of their free-gift Pacers.

Good to see a Pacer 143617 donated by GWR is being used to restore a very limited service on the almost 300m of track at the Tarka Valley line at the Great Torrington Station Devon.

Train leaves disused Devon station for first time in decades

The driver and guard from the train's last journey in 1982 were invited to the reopening.

www.bbc.com

Line too short to notice a bad ride, but the large windows will be a benefit. Hope they get to extend the line with perhaps some steam locos in future.

 

[hacman]

Wasn't it more like that they were going to build 150-like DEMUs (I forget the class), but went cheap on Pacers, then along came the "good compromise" 150 as a hybrid of the two, i.e. the body of the original with a cheaper driveline? Might have been the best bet to do that in the first place, but lessons sometimes need learning.

Yes - class 210 was investigated and prototyped for this role (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_210).

Even the 150 was proposed to be a 3-car unit, as can be seen in 001 and 002, but that was cut back.

 

[Justin Smith]

They were all built to match a budget, a budget issued from "up above" to replace first-generation dmus, the budget did not facilitate a 1 : 1 replacement of old for new.
As for the Pacers, they acquired a fan club of bashers as their time drew near, sadly interrupted by the lock down conditions of Covid. I miss their exciting zig-zag motion as they sped along, and their reliability, the second life is with the heritage railways who will celebrate the low running costs of their free-gift Pacers.

And their light airy interiors with excellent views out, particularly with the lower back original bench seats.
Did they not also have marginally more leg room with the thinner bench seats ?

 

[Welly]

Supposedly there was a proposal in the 1990s for 141s (which had recently been made redundant by the Airedale & Wharfedale electrification) on the Gospel Oak to Barking line.

Imagine them in LT red livery!

 

[ollyexe2808]

I very much dislike the pacers and 150/153/155/156s personally. Maybe I prefer the sprinters slightly but its like comparing falling into a puddle of mud head first vs feet first...

At least I find pacers ironically fun to ride on cos of how bouncy they are, don't think Id hold that for the non air-con sprinters.

If we're counting 158/159s, I prefer these by a mile over all the others

Completely agree with Rail Quest. Living on the Exeter - Paignton route, disliked the Pacers and the 150s are noisy, cramped and often overcrowded (low density seating and many two-carriage units, midsummer on a tourist route....).

158/9s absolutely agree are better by a country mile, much more comfortable for mid to longer distances (Such as Exeter to Barnstaple or Exmouth to Paignton).

Can't wait for the day the remaining 150s are scrapped (which feels like it will be decades off.....)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Imagine them in LT red livery!

They were already red at the time, so would have been an easy conversion, just fill in the cream stripe... though NSE or Silverlink would have been more likely.

 

[Fleetwoodflyer]

Give me a Pacer any day. Before electrification we had many of them operating out of Liverpool Lime Street both up to Blackpool North and on the Chat Moss. When we had through services to Stalybridge and Huddersfield it was not unusual if a Pacer turned up for the 57 mile journey into West Yorkshire.

I agree. Always preferred the Pacers to 150s especially the 200s with ridiculous seating.

 

[DM352]

Yes - class 210 was investigated and prototyped for this role (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_210).

Even the 150 was proposed to be a 3-car unit, as can be seen in 001 and 002, but that was cut back.

Used to enjoy the pacer from Leeds to Skipton for good views of the valley. The 3 car extra car of the 144 am sure was sponsored by WYPTE.

I asked about why no further 3 car 150's a while back and one reply was about the Serpell report possibly replacing 3 car 1st gen with 2 car 150s. I remember hearing upset commuters at the time on the Tamworth hl line when the 120s got replaced with a 2 car 150.

Preferred a 2 car pacer to a bogied 153 which was one of BR's creative ways of having more units without new orders.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

I love Pacers, but windows, bus feel, and friendly atmosphere.

 

[Mikey C]

As a tourist (the time I ever have had to use either Pacers or 150s) I do appreciate the much better view out of the Pacers.

 

[315801]

As a passenger who has rode on sprinters and pacers before now, I can tell you that for a passenger with inherent back trouble, sprinters are much better to ride on than a bouncing pacer.

If I was given a choice of riding either a 2 coach unit with 8 axles and air suspensioinor a 2 coach unit with coil springs both going to the same destination, the 2 coach with 8 axles and air suspension would win hands down.

 

[AHBD]

Isnt it unfair to criticise , for example, 150s for seat layout when that is fairly easy to change whereas a pacer is always going to be a four wheeled no bogies unit..?

I have only been on a 150 once but it didnt seem any louder than other underfloor engined dmus: but I liked its Mk3 style width and 1/3 2/3 wide doors. I have been on a pacer once, it seemed unimpressive.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Used to enjoy the pacer from Leeds to Skipton for good views of the valley. The 3 car extra car of the 144 am sure was sponsored by WYPTE.

More than sponsored- the ten Motor Standard vehicles (found in units 144014-144023) were purchased by WYPTE and remained owned by the PTE until some time in the 2000s (iirc) when DfT enforced their sale to Porterbrook. The seven class 155s were in the same situation.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Two directly answer the original question, yes every time, I love Pacers and with the possible exception of a mega long journey, the like of which are often performed by one five eight s, Cardiff Portsmouth or Penzance as an example here, I would still take one of these over pretty much anything else diesel powered these days

 

[Steve B]

I, too, liked the Pacers for the views, and wasn't really bothered that much by the ride, but I fully understand those who hated the roughness of the ride. My first encounter with them is when they were newish and introduced onto the North Wales Coast line (we lived in Bangor at the time). Although it was said that they were intended for short branch line type work, that didn't really work well because many such lines have tight curves on them which led to high levels of wheel wear (I believe). In North Wales they appeared on the most extraordinary services. For example, one day I was going to Chester, and the train was made up of a 142 and a 150 coupled together. Most passengers squeezed themselves into the 150 - fine by me in the 142 as I had the views and a seat to myself! The train was due to divide at Chester, where one half was terminating, and the other half was going to Hull (there being such a service at the time). Of course it was the 142 that was going on to Hull! Bangor to Hull in a Pacer...!

The 150s? I've revised my views a bit over the last few years. I only ever see the TFW ones with decent seating. Yes there are still seats with no views at all, but otherwise the seating is decent. Yesterday I had some work to do which took me from Shrewsbury to Hawarden on the Borderlands line, and then later up onto the Wirral, before going to Chester, before heading home (with a further break at Wrexham). That mean't that I travelled on 3 separate 150s, a 230, a couple of Merseyrail units (either 507 or 508 - I didn't look), and a 197. By far the most comfortable were the 150s, although the others were ok. The air con on the 230 and 197 was alleged to be working, but you wouldn't know it, but the open windows on the older stock was lovely. The 150s only real downside was the noise, made worse by having the windows open.

 

[nw1]

I didn't prefer Pacers to Sprinters as such, but I did appreciate them.

Even though they weren't necessarily the most comfortable stock, they provided interesting variety, and the fact that they could work in multiple with 15x mean that the Sprinter/Pacer era featured some of the same kinds of interesting lash-ups you'd get during the 41x/42x EMU era on the SR.

One disclaimer I will make is that I used Sprinters far more often than Pacers, due to my geographical location.

Two directly answer the original question, yes every time, I love Pacers and with the possible exception of a mega long journey, the like of which are often performed by one five eight s, Cardiff Portsmouth or Penzance as an example here, I would still take one of these over pretty much anything else diesel powered these days

As an aside I wonder if Pacers ever worked Cardiff-Portsmouth (not booked, obviously)? The line certainly saw them, there was a peak hour Bristol-Warminster booked 143 in the late 90s for example.

 

[bramling]

I, too, liked the Pacers for the views, and wasn't really bothered that much by the ride, but I fully understand those who hated the roughness of the ride. My first encounter with them is when they were newish and introduced onto the North Wales Coast line (we lived in Bangor at the time). Although it was said that they were intended for short branch line type work, that didn't really work well because many such lines have tight curves on them which led to high levels of wheel wear (I believe). In North Wales they appeared on the most extraordinary services. For example, one day I was going to Chester, and the train was made up of a 142 and a 150 coupled together. Most passengers squeezed themselves into the 150 - fine by me in the 142 as I had the views and a seat to myself! The train was due to divide at Chester, where one half was terminating, and the other half was going to Hull (there being such a service at the time). Of course it was the 142 that was going on to Hull! Bangor to Hull in a Pacer...!

The 150s? I've revised my views a bit over the last few years. I only ever see the TFW ones with decent seating. Yes there are still seats with no views at all, but otherwise the seating is decent. Yesterday I had some work to do which took me from Shrewsbury to Hawarden on the Borderlands line, and then later up onto the Wirral, before going to Chester, before heading home (with a further break at Wrexham). That mean't that I travelled on 3 separate 150s, a 230, a couple of Merseyrail units (either 507 or 508 - I didn't look), and a 197. By far the most comfortable were the 150s, although the others were ok. The air con on the 230 and 197 was alleged to be working, but you wouldn't know it, but the open windows on the older stock was lovely. The 150s only real downside was the noise, made worse by having the windows open.

Yes I used to absolutely hate 150s, but with the revised seating layouts I’ve come to quite like them. The noise doesn’t bother me.

 

[Justin Smith]

Isnt it unfair to criticise , for example, 150s for seat layout when that is fairly easy to change whereas a pacer is always going to be a four wheeled no bogies unit..?
I have only been on a 150 once but it didnt seem any louder than other underfloor engined dmus: but I liked its Mk3 style width and 1/3 2/3 wide doors. I have been on a pacer once, it seemed unimpressive.

I still don't see how a Class 150 can have a decent view out whatever the seat layout, if for no other reason than its 1/3 plus 2/3 door position(s) and huge area of windowless bodywork where the doors slide into when opening. Even if one got a seat right next to the window the view forwards and to the side has to be poor, certainly in comparison to a Pacer.
That said, compartment stock was even worse in that regard !