Amsterdam Eurostar

Discussion in 'International Transport' started by Gadget88, 14 Sep 2017.

  1. 33Hz

    33Hz Member

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    Does it count with other classes and a Carte Blanche?

    So in all seriousness they could do a set down on the way out from London in Antwerp and Schiphol, and it doesn't matter on the way back so they could pick up there too.
     
  2. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    They could, but that with a journey time penalty, which would be enough to tip it over 4hrs. And no prospect of pick ups there when border controls are in at centraal and Rotterdam.
     
  3. paddington

    paddington Member

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    Has it been mentioned which platforms the through services will be arriving at and departing from at Brussels?

    Doesn't Eurostar currently use bay platforms - will these be rebuilt or what? It would seem that passengers travelling Brussels to London on the through train need to be channeled to a different platform (that needs to be closed off while a London-bound train is using it)? Or will trains reverse after offloading the Amsterdam-Brussels passengers, hence the 28 minute wait?
     
  4. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    It was mentioned up-thread that the though platform closest to the bays is having fencing and gates installed so it can be separated from the rest of the station when required for a Eurostar. I guess this means that both the platform and the train will be searched during the 28min wait to establish that there are no undesirable objects or people able to use the service to London.
     
  5. StephenHunter

    StephenHunter Member

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    Yet they keep letting David Davis on. ;)
     
  6. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

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    Am I getting this right then, other than being able to get a through ticket there isn't going to get the same train all the way, pretty much as it is now? If you do get a cheap through ticket you aren't getting back on the same train you get off in Brussels?
     
  7. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    Through tickets have been available for years, it appears there will be no difference to the westward journey apart from extra capacity. The eastward journey will be hugely improved so it is better than nothing until 2020.
     
  8. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    This is yet another reason the admins MUST turn on the like function!
     
  9. AlexNL

    AlexNL Member

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    Well, the price of the cheapest Thalys+Eurostar tickets is being lowered to € 49 (it's € 59 now) so that's something. Once Eurostar runs a through service in both directions I expect the cheapest prices in both directions to become equal.
     
  10. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

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    Once we leave the EU you may see the Eastbound service become more like the Westbound one. All open to negotiation of course.
     
  11. Gadget88

    Gadget88 Member

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    I did the Amsterdam Thalys trip last month also went to Cologne so am surprised they don’t expand to Germany given how close it is from Brussels. Perhaps a rival train could come in and offer a direct London to Germany service?
     
  12. StephenHunter

    StephenHunter Member

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    DB proposed a Frankfurt to London service and even ran a test train into St Pancras, but the project is on indefinite hold now.
     
  13. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Some SouthEastern staff suggested DB was considering running trains from Stratford International but I think that was more wishful thinking than anything else.

    That said, they ARE doing some work on the international platforms (including the escalators) at the moment.
     
  14. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

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    Are the International Platforms and facilities at Stratford kept in working order should they be required for emergency evacuation of a Eurostar - say if St Pancras was inaccessible?
     
  15. StephenHunter

    StephenHunter Member

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    The trains don't run through those platforms though... they run down the middle tracks there.
     
  16. AlexNL

    AlexNL Member

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    Why would they? Ebbsfleet isn't that far so trains could be terminated there, should the need arise.
     
  17. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    I've sat on a Eurostar in the up platform loop while we were held outside St Pancras.
     
  18. Gerald Fiennes

    Gerald Fiennes Member

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    Sounds fun, but do I not recall that the AMS - STP train will actually be deemed to be two sections, with the back half of the train locked off from the front half in order to speed up the Brussels 'security theatre'? Ie. the one half runs the AMS - BMI and then is ECS, the other half BMI - STP but is ECS to BMI? Thus making the ability to get back into the exact same BP seat a severe security, not just a logistic, challenge?
     
  19. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Member

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    It will happen eventually. It has taken far too long for Amsterdam - They should've immediately taken advantage of HSL Zuid when it opened back in 2009. I was hopeful when the ICE 3 was displayed at St Pancras that by now London - Koln would be direct. Typically, everything just takes a stupid amount of time. "Paused, re-evaluating, cancelled, revived". Koln is the obvious next expansion, whether that is DB or Eurostar. I'd imagine, considering the similar journey times, DB may well be watching the success of E* to Amsterdam and the result of Brexit negotiations (Frankfort).
     
  20. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Ah, you caught me out ;)
     
  21. Gadget88

    Gadget88 Member

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    Yes it’s amazing how long the Euro tunnel has been going and it’s took this long to expand. Eurostar have started going more places in France so they seem to be expanding. In terms of the Amsterdam route Antwerp would be the next logical step and Airport if they can get the infustructure in the stations sorted in the future. Also a direct express too. I imagine the Amsterdam route will be a success. I went there on holiday recently and also went to Cologne and must admit I prefer Germany. I will probably stick to using Euro star for Paris and Brussels.

    A question I’ve never asked yet is would say Switzerland be possible with the Paris section of the line? I know it’s only 3 hours from Paris. Barcelona could be another one if people we’re willing to spend say 8 hours on a train?
     
  22. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    There was a thread on this about a year ago, possibly even this thread.

    Eurostar only works in high volume flows. Also it will only work where that flow can compete door to door with air, or at least be close enough to air that people will be willing to trade journey time for more comfort / convenience. It is very unlikely that Eurostar will win on price, particularly for longer flows. Realistically, around 6 hours from London is going to be the limit for a regular service (as opposed to say the ski trains which only run at weekends for a very specific, high flow, high value market).

    The issue is that a Eurostar will need to fill 600-700 seats to be viable. An A319 needs to fill about 130, and can therefore offer a much higher frequency (which is more attractive to passengers) for the same capacity.

    As always, a good indicator of international market size is available by looking at Civil Aviation Authority data for air passenger numbers. Potential markets From London, with estimated journey times if calling at only the most major stations en route:

    Amsterdam (under 4 hours non stop)
    Frankfurt (5hrs) via Cologne (4hrs)
    Geneva (5hrs)
    Zurich (6hrs) via Basle (5hrs)
    Marseille (6hrs) via Lyon (4 1/2h) (already done by Eurostar summer weekends only)
    Bordeaux (4 1/2hrs)

    Barcelona, Munich, Berlin, Nice, Hamburg, Stuttgart are all just too far to make a realistic rail market from London with current arrangements. Now, if UK joined Schengen and was border free, I think it quite likely that a London - Barcelona or London- Nice service that could pick up in Lille, Paris, Lyon would be viable. Ditto London-Münich calling at Brussels, Cologne, Frankfurt & Stuttgart or Nuremburg. But this isn't going to happen any time soon, unfortunately.

    As it stands, it's not beyond the realms of possibility that all London - Brussels services will eventually be extended to either Amsterdam, or Frankfurt via Cologne. A twice daily London - Geneva service might also hold water, although finding paths on the LGV-PSE will be an issue. Finally a London-Bordeaux summer weekend service would also probably be a goer now that the LGV-SEA is open, although onward travel would be an issue here.
     
  23. Mutant Lemming

    Mutant Lemming Established Member

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    Nächster Halt: Köln ?

    What is the next likely destination of through trains from St.Pancras to the continent ?
     
  24. AlexNL

    AlexNL Member

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  25. StephenHunter

    StephenHunter Member

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    You have to remember that trains can stop at multiple destinations and you don't necessarily have to get everyone going for the whole journey to make things viable. It would require a major spike in the oil price that did for the low-cost airline industries, but high speed sleeper services (which exist in China already) would be one possibility for the future.

    I've managed to work out (for a separate project) timings for a TGV speed London to Venice service, which I've attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  26. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Trains can of course stop at multiple destinations, and do all over Europe. But with current border control arrangements for the UK preventing (at least) in bound trains setting down passengers en route, then the trains are going to be pretty empty at their furthest reach. And that makes it uneconomic.

    And please, let's not go down the road of sleeper services into Europe. It's been done to death on previous threads, and it's not going to happen. As an aside, those timings wouldn't work anyway, as the French high speed lines all close around 2300-0600, which means Venice would be reached sometime after lunch. Yes I'm sure there are a few people who would do it, but very few of them would be willing to pay the price necessary to justify a whole set of special coaches that would get used once a day with at most 16 passengers on each coach.
     
  27. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    My guess is summer weekends to Bordeaux. Relatively easy to do with the rolling stock, big market (particularly from London / SE: 15,000 people a week make the flight to/from London airports in July / August, with a high concentration at weekends) and a 4h30 journey time would be competitive with air door to door for much of the south east. And the experience would be far better than flying, as anyone who has used the 'billi' terminal / warehouse at Bordeaux airport will testify.

    The only issues I can see would be onward travel for around 700 bucket and spaders rocking up at the city centre Bordeaux St Jean early on a Saturday afternoon, and providing the necessary security for the return journey to avoid the need to decamp at Lille.

    After that my guess is Frankfurt. Big market, solid all year round. Mostly business so can bear a higher price, and can be sold on the basis of getting work done on the train. The main business district is right next to the Hauptbahnhof, making the door to door time reasonably competitive.

    Geneva is an odd one. The infrastructure has been there for a 5h journey time since the Ligne du Haut Bugey was upgraded in 2010. However AIUI the trains need 15kV capability for the last leg into Geneva, so the old Eurostars can't do it. Nevertheless there is great potential, particularly in winter for the ski market (75,000 people a week fly London-Geneva Jan-March). Eurostar could easily fill 2 trains from St Pancras early on winter Saturday mornings, and they could pretty much charge what they like for the half term weekend. Finding paths on the LGV south of Paris is the issue. I think this is why Eurostar haven't run winter Saturday trains to Lyon St Exupery, which would be another banker, and perfect for the ski market.

    Sorry we are way OT for Amsterdam.
     
    Last edited: 13 Feb 2018
  28. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

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    Just looking to what may happen in the near future how many services run through multiple EU countries from none EU countries and how is it managed?
     
  29. Bald Rick

    Bald Rick Established Member

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    Generally, they are either in the Schengen area (eg Norway and Switzerland) and have no official border controls (but police checks are permitted), or if outside Schengen have sensible arrangments on trains. I gather it gets a bit more interesting the further east you go, ie crossing to/from ex soviet countries outside the EU, but I've not experienced that myself, and there's not many long distance trains that do it IIRC.
     
    Last edited: 14 Feb 2018
  30. fowler9

    fowler9 Established Member

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    Cheers mate. I have done a bus from Bosnia to Croatia and it was a nightmare. I would imagine or hope things would be a bit more organised by train.
     

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