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Annual Gold Card limitation
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Changes to the Gold Card validity were made in 2015. There are a number of differences:
- Gold Card Area is extended to include East Anglia and much of the Midlands as far north as Stafford on the WCML (not available on CrossCountry north of Banbury)
- Discounts are available in 1st class with a Gold Card
- No minimum discounted fare of £13 applies with Gold Card discounted ticket on weekdays
- Gold Card discounted tickets can be used from 09:30 on weekdays compared to 10:00 with the Network Railcard
- Gold Card discount can be applied to a PAYG Oyster card for discounted off-peak travel where Oyster is accepted
- You can buy another railcard for yourself of a friend for £10
As noted by @JonathanH Gold Card discounted tickets cannot be used at all on Avanti or with LNER. That means between Stevenage and Kings Cross and Milton Keynes and Euston Gold Card tickets cannot be used with LNER/Avanti but Network Railcard disocunted tickets are valid. Quite farcical really, there's no reason for them to be barred.
That's a new one on me! Everyday's a school day!
It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and I strongly suspect it's an oversight by Southeastern. I'm sure it'll be a case of getting someone in their procing team to set the correct flag. The issue is getting it to someone who understands the problem.
The not past Banbury on XC rule is pretty bonkers. Does this mean if I jump on a XC train with a discounted gold card ticket from Leamington to Reading holding an all trains via Banbury London terminals ticket I am fare evading??
You say that, but it's explicitly stated as being the case on the relevant page on Knowledgebase. L
That wouldn't stop someone from issuing a Change of Route Excess with a Gold Card discount of course, though it's a bit of a grey area as to whether such an Excess is permitted given they're not clearly geographic routes, but equally it's the same TOC for both.
Whether there's continued justification to retain those restrictions now is a different argument entirely, however.
Yes, the discount isn't valid on CrossCountry until Banbury.
When Chiltern decided to participate in an extension of the Gold Card discounts to cover their full route, CrossCountry chose not to extend the use of such discounts outside the area set as a legacy of Network South East.
There are other instances of tickets not being valid on all operators once discounted. Groupsave being the main one.
Thanks for the clarification. The map and tickets should state that though as otherwise you would be pretty much clueless.
The tickets show a discount, and to be eligible for that discount the terms and conditions need to be met.
The map on the National Rail website shows this. CrossCountry validity ends at Banbury.
[Screenshot show map showing validity of the Annual Gold Card in the Banbury area, with a clear end of Cross Country validity.]
From https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/railcards/annual-gold-card/
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Given that Southeastern are the operator for both routes it must clearly be regarded as a geographic restriction.
Otherwise it would be an operator restriction, which wouldn't be permitted because SE are the lead fare setter for most of the affected flows. Not to mention the fact that brand-specific restrictions are of ineffective under the NRCoT. Moreover, it's clearly still allowed to use SE 395s where they run on the "classic" network - so how could the same train, operating under the same "brand", become impermissible mid-journey on the basis of a brand restriction?
It's an unusual geographic restriction for sure, but it makes a bit more sense when you consider the full-length restriction text now shown on most tickets and journey planners, which mentions the specific stations and routes it's not valid between.
It is surely only the upgrade that doesn't have a gold card discount. Ordinary 'plus high speed' tickets can be discounted by Annual Gold Cards and are valid from St Pancras.
I suspect it is some ruse by the Southeastern pricing manager to discourage annual season ticket holders using a discounted upgrade to circumvent the pricing of 'plus high speed' season tickets.
For example, an anytime day return from London Terminals to Ashford International routed 'plus high speed' can be discounted by an Annual Gold Card
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=1072&dest=AFK&rlc=NGC&rte=131&tkt=SDR
The separate upgrade can't have an Annual Gold Card discount
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=1072&dest=AFK&rte=131&tkt=HUB
but can have a Network Railcard discount
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=1072&dest=AFK&rlc=NEW&rte=131&tkt=HUB
I suspect it is some ruse by the Southeastern pricing manager to discourage annual season ticket holders using a discounted upgrade to circumvent the pricing of 'plus high speed' season tickets.
For example, an anytime day return from London Terminals to Ashford International routed 'plus high speed' can be discounted by an Annual Gold Card
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=1072&dest=AFK&rlc=NGC&rte=131&tkt=SDR
The separate upgrade can't have an Annual Gold Card discount
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=1072&dest=AFK&rte=131&tkt=HUB
but can have a Network Railcard discount
https://www.brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=1072&dest=AFK&rlc=NEW&rte=131&tkt=HUB
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I stand corrected. Thank you.
Yes, absolutely it's just the upgrade that's unavailable with a Gold Card, but I'm not sure I follow your justification. If the discount was so "valuable" then it wouldn't make sense for it to be available on the NSE card, especially as AGC holder could buy themselves a NSE card for just £10.
Other questions this raises: is it valid to buy the upgrade with a NSE card if the original ticket was bought with the AGC? Why is the minimum fare not applied for the upgrade, when buying with the NSE card?
I don't see why not, as long as you possess both an Annual Gold Card and Network Railcard.
I asked Southeastern and got a nonsense reply back. If I get time I'll go back to them but the problem is getting this sort of query to the right person who both understands the issue and has the authority to do something about it.
It's similar to LNER and Avanti accepting Network Railcard discounted tickets between London and Stevenage/Milton Keynes but not Annual Gold Card discounted ones. It's so infuriating.
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Perhaps the answer is that the minimum fare applies to journeys (any of which requiring the supplement will be over £13) and not tickets.
The HS1 supplement can be discounted with a Network Railcard and no minimum fare is applied.
It is totally nonsensical that a Gold Card discount cannot be applied to the supplement (note there is no minimum fare with a Gold Card)
SandsofEss
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Forgive me for resurrecting an old thread, but I've stumbled across a curiosity with my Annual Gold Card and it looked like a similar topic.
I can't seem to get my Gold Card discount to apply on some journeys for which I believe it should be valid, and where other railcard discounts do apply.
To give a specific example; Tonbridge to Lymington Pier.
If I enter it in BR Fares with no railcard (or any other railcard), I am presented options for Advance fares.
However, if I enter Annual Gold Card in the discount field, I am only presented with walk-up fares.
Is there a validity restriction on the Gold Card that I've missed?
I can't seem to get my Gold Card discount to apply on some journeys for which I believe it should be valid, and where other railcard discounts do apply.
To give a specific example; Tonbridge to Lymington Pier.
If I enter it in BR Fares with no railcard (or any other railcard), I am presented options for Advance fares.
However, if I enter Annual Gold Card in the discount field, I am only presented with walk-up fares.
Is there a validity restriction on the Gold Card that I've missed?
Mcr Warrior
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That it doesn't offer any discounts on Advance tickets?
Annual Gold Card | National Rail
Get great discounts on your leisure travel in the south of England with an Annual Gold Card
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SandsofEss
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Wow, thank you. Hitherto I thought all railcard were largely the same.Appears NOT to offer any discounts on Advance tickets?
Annual Gold Card | National Rail
Get great discounts on your leisure travel in the south of England with an Annual Gold Cardwww.nationalrail.co.uk
Extract...
Annoyingly, I've definitely booked tickets using my gold card discount before, when I could have used one of my other railcards. Buyer beware.
I wonder why BR Fares opts to show no advances, instead of including the undiscounted advance fare for the selected journey?
EDIT: Corrected spelling
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Mcr Warrior
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Haywain
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BRFares is not an official source of information.
Mcr Warrior
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Presume the absence of discounts being available on advance tickets when using an Annual Gold Card is a historic throwback to when advance tickets were few and far between in the Gold Card area?
There's a small level of caution you have to apply to BRFares with a Gold Card anyway, it doesn't appear to check routing, only whether the start and end stations are in the Gold Card area.
Ely to Peterborough with Gold Card - shows no fares.
Ely to Birmingham New Street with Gold Card - shows Gold Card discounted 'not London' fares, though there is actually no way to make this journey without leaving the Gold Card area.
Cambridge to Birmingham New Street with Gold Card - shows Gold Card discounted 'London' and 'not London' fares, though only the 'London' fares are valid, for the same reason.
BRFares is a great resource, so this isn't really a criticism - short of iterating over all possible routes, I don't see how this could be fixed - but it is something to bear in mind.
paul1609
Established Member
Its pretty obvious if you think about it. The reason that HS1 has supplements and not route excesses is that you cant change the route on a season ticket on a daily basis. If you have anytime and off peak route excesses you then dont want the off peak route excess to be discounted again by season ticket holders. The supplement can only be discounted by the same discount thats held by the main ticket.
Bearing in mind that "Not London" really equates, in most cases, to "Not London Terminals", I think Ely or Cambridge to Birmingham "route: not London" is feasible while staying within the Gold Card area - it would just be a slow and unintuitive route, and might involve changing trains, for example, at each of Finsbury Park, Highbury & Islington, Willesden Junction and Watford Junction (also taking care not to use Avanti between Watford and Brum)
Annual Gold Cards don't provide a discount on Advance tickets, and never have. But it's a fair point as this isn't mentioned anywhere in the terms & conditions, only in the FAQ section on the NRE site. Arguably the train companies are in breach of contract by failing to mention a (rather key) restriction they apply in practice. Might be difficult to obtain recourse though.
Almost every Railcard has a different set of conditions. Some are valid all day, some from 09:30, some from 10:00, others from whenever an Off-Peak ticket for the journey being made becomes valid. Some have a blanket minimum fare, some have a minimum fare with various exceptions, others don't. It's a complete mess, and the resultant customer confusion is entirely foreseeable - except, it would seem, by those in the rail industry who came up with these rules!
BR Fares should be seen as what it is: a portal for viewing the fares data, as published by the industry. In the industry data, there are no Advance fares with a Gold Card discount. So if you filter fares by the Gold Card discount, you are not going to find any Advances.
Arguably BR Fares should still show fares not eligible for a discount using your selected Railcard, such as Advances in this case, but that would be somewhat inconsistent. And it could cause confusion if people thought the Advance fares they were seeing were discounted.
As the homepage to BR Fares says, some degree of prior knowledge of rail fares and restrictions is necessary to properly understand what the site tells you.
That's as may be, but that isn't the reason it doesn't show Advance fares.
Probably, yes. And the train companies would undoubtedly deem it "too generous" to introduce a discount on Advance tickets for journeys within the Gold Card area.
Haywain
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I didn't say it was but it is still important to be aware of its unofficial status and that it should not be relied on for accuracy - as this thread demonstrates.
That's a rather interesting point, as on further examination BRFares doesn't give fares for Ely to Huntingdon or St Neots, despite both ends of those journeys being in the Gold Card area. Perhaps it is doing some routing logic. That said, I don't see how you'd manage to do what you suggested without going off a permitted route...
Strictly speaking, travel via the London suburbs isn't a permitted route.
For neither journey is travelling via London (or the London suburbs) the shortest route, or within 3 miles of it.
For Ely to Birmingham, the only mapped route is via Peterborough and Leicester (i.e. avoiding London). Travel via London is, therefore, only permitted if you hold a ticket specifically routed "via London".
For Cambridge to Birmingham, there are maps via London - but you can't use them to construct a journey avoiding London Terminals, as there is no intersection between any of the Routeing Points immediately before/after the London Routeing Point Group. So whilst you can use the "LONDON" map combinations, they don't help.
Arguably, if someone did manage to buy an Gold Card-discounted Cambridge or Ely to Birmingham route "not via London" ticket, they'd be entitled to still travel via the shortest route that complies with the Gold Card restrictions (i.e. as per your suggestion). But you might encounter difficulties at barrier lines.
It's unofficial and so cannot be relied upon as an official source (even though the official sources are generally much less clear), but it is accurate in this case. It is correctly listing the Gold Card discounted fares that exist in the data.
BR Fares isn't a journey planner and therefore can't tell you whether or not it is actually feasible to use (let alone buy) a given fare that exists. It is just telling you what is in the data.
As above, it is just telling you what is in the industry data. In this case, there aren't any GC-discounted fares, because GTR (who price the fares) only offer "via Peterborough" fares, which by necessity involve travelling outside the GC area.
There are a number of GC and Network Railcard-discounted fares in the data which are either impossible to use, or which no sensible person would buy because the GC limitations mean they offer no benefit over alternative cheaper fares. For example, Avanti sets GC-discounted "Any Permitted" and "via Birmingham" fares between Shrewsbury and London. These cost significantly more than the alternative "via High Wycombe" or "WMR/LNR/TfW only" fares.
Since Avanti doesn't accept GC-discounted fares at all, and XC don't north of Banbury, and since Crewe is outside the GC area, you are almost certainly going to be travelling via Birmingham as a minimum - thus rendering the "Any Permitted" fares completely pointless. In the event you wanted to go via Wolverhampton and Stafford, you'd have to be on WMT anyway - meaning a "WMR/LNR/TfW only" fare would be valid and cheaper.
Even for the "via Birmingham" fares, these are still not particularly useful as you will either be using Chiltern (at least as far as Banbury), or WMT to London. If you did really want to use XC south of Banbury to get to Reading, you'd be far better off splitting.
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