Anytime Break of Journey

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mugam4

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The anytime ticket terms and conditions state:
You may start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station along the route of travel.
Just to confirm, does this mean, if I have an anytime ticket, I can travel B to C if I have an A to C ticket, where B is an intermediate station?
 
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John @ home

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If B is an intermediate station on a permitted route from A to C, yes.
 
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MikeWh

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Staff insisted otherwise, but I thought it must be as simple as it sounds. Thank you!

Do you want to confirm the identities of A, B and C then we can advise whether it really is a permitted route?
 

mugam4

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Er.. Well if Southampton Central - Eastleigh - Romsey isn't a permitted route then I'd be somewhat surprised.
 

higthomas

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http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf

"Is the route the shortest distance from the origin to the destination?" --> No.
"Is the customer travelling on an advertised through train?" --> Yes..
"The route is a permitted route for that journey"

But if they were breaking their journey, then that would invalidate that rule surely? For instance if I have an Earlsfield to Clapham Junction ticket, I can use it on the loop services via Kingston, but that doesn't mean I can get of at Kingston.

Although in this case, I'd imagine it is a mapped route, but I'm on my phone so can't check.
 

OwlMan

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A Southampton - Romsey ticket is not valid for starting short at Eastleigh.

Romsey is an associated Routeing Point of Southampton therefore only the shortest route (or one not 3 miles longer) or a direct train (You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold on a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without changing trains.)

Southampton - Romsey via Eastleigh is more than 3 miles further than the shortest route and by getting on at Eastleigh your are not travelling between the stations shown on the ticket on a through train for the entire journey.
 
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bb21

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I must say I am gobsmacked that Southampton - Romsey is not permitted via Eastleigh.
 

Starmill

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I must say I am gobsmacked that Southampton - Romsey is not permitted via Eastleigh.

It is when there's a through train! :p And by extension, I think that means always...
 

Paul Kelly

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Probably due to a Romsey - Eastleigh ticket costs more than Romsey - Southampton Central.
Price doesn't determine validity! There's a common routeing point and the distance is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, so it's only valid on through trains.
 

mugam4

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I emailed SWT to ask them when I started the thread, so I guess we'll see what they say.

Trains Romsey-Southampton Central run 'both ways' throughout the day, and via Eastleigh is about 10-15 minutes longer - there are times when the longer journey is 'quicker', because of the spread of services, so I don't see why one route should be any less 'valid' than the other in any circumstance, in a logical world.

Thanks for the help guys!
 

swt_passenger

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... and that also surprises me.

Haven't time to do a thorough check (at the time of my original post), but I'm sure this was discussed before and the basic problem was that the fares from Romsey were at that time all still set by FGW/GWR, and fares to the stations round what is now a loop were never altered for the opening of Chandlers Ford, and the shorter route to Eastleigh.

BR Fares shows at least Romsey to Eastleigh is now set by SWT, [see later edit] but it is still relatively high - compared to fares to the mid point of the loop, which is probably somewhere between Swaythling and St Denys...

Edited to add:

I have just checked on BR Fares and SWT do seem to have responsibility for all the relevant short distance flows from Romsey now, but look how the Anytime single fares are skewed:


M.Ch Destination Fare
0.0 Romsey
5.22 Chandlers Ford £4.40
7.32 Eastleigh £6.30
8.63 Southampton Air £6.30
9.53 Swaythling £5.90
11.7 St Denys £4.50
13.14 Southampton C. £4.30
13.68 Millbrook £4.30
15.47 Redbridge £4.30
21.0 Romsey

It's easy to see why anyone starting at Romsey and heading to Eastleigh via Chandlers Ford might want to stop short...
 
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Kite159

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I emailed SWT to ask them when I started the thread, so I guess we'll see what they say.

Trains Romsey-Southampton Central run 'both ways' throughout the day, and via Eastleigh is about 10-15 minutes longer - there are times when the longer journey is 'quicker', because of the spread of services, so I don't see why one route should be any less 'valid' than the other in any circumstance, in a logical world.

Thanks for the help guys!

That logic doesn't hold water, as on a regular weekday (and Saturdays)

From Romsey, the service via Eastleigh towards Southampton Central departs at XX:07, where the via Redbridge service departs at XX:20 [apart from the odd hour when it's XX:14 going by RTT]. The service via Redbridge arrives to Southampton Central pretty much at the same time.

Similarly the SWT services from Southampton Central towards Romsey depart within a couple minutes of each other, with the one going via Eastleigh departing before the one via Redbridge.
(http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...4/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SW)

So unless there is delays, the service via Redbridge will pretty much always be quicker
 

mugam4

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Everybody I know who's vaguely informed buys a Romsey-Southampton Central return for most journeys on the 'loop' - I was surprised after years of doing this to be queried by staff at Eastleigh recently, hence this post.

Annual Eastleigh - Romsey seasons are particularly cheeky at at £1,216 v £880.

Everybody I know who isn't very informed boards the 'long' side of the loop at Southampton due to it saying Romsey on the front, and the faster service showing Salisbury via Romsey. Not a problem as they're not breaking their journey obviously, but there are a lot of through passengers for this reason!
 

planetf1

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Interesting as if I want to meander around the loop (one direction) I just get a ticket to the most expensive point on the basis that is valid for the full loop... Perhaps I should look into validity rules closer!

So would a rom-sou return be just fine for cfr-sou? It would seem so? Could such a ticket be purchased in the automated machines? If not it would be legitimate to get on train (tbh probably not worth the hassle)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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yorkie

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Interesting as if I want to meander around the loop (one direction) I just get a ticket to the most expensive point on the basis that is valid for the full loop... Perhaps I should look into validity rules closer!
If you are taking a through train, you can buy a ticket to any station providing you are satisfied that the NRCoC has been met.
So would a rom-sou return be just fine for cfr-sou? It would seem so?
Debatable at best (unless it's a permitted route in the Routeing Guide). See debate above (and in many other threads!)
Could such a ticket be purchased in the automated machines?
Probably not from a machine.
If not it would be legitimate to get on train (tbh probably not worth the hassle)
Good luck with that :lol:
 

planetf1

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Thanks for the reply, certainly the UK rail system is fascinating, though in different ways. personally I'm more keen on the engineering & architecture! Fares are something else...

Though I've read for a while, in this case I can only see
ROM-SOU is shown by national rail enquiries as both directions through the loop
CFR is a stop on the eastern side of the loop, at which all trains on that side stop

Viewing the routing guide the regular customer is very clearly pointed to use the above to determine route validity

Note I did look in the routing guide which says that for cfr:
030098 Journeys from Chandlers Ford via Eastleigh and Basingstoke are permitted regardless
of fares. This easement applies in both directions.

though I won't pretend to have worked through that guide or understand (yet... a job to work through) how routes are defined.

Given this I can't see why the rom-sou wouldn't be valid to use for cfr-sou (on the eastern side - there's never any point going on the west side sou-cfr even if valid, unless wanting to visit one of those stations)

I've never done this, no idea if I will, but I was bemused as to the reference above.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In addition if I wanted a ticket ROM-SOU, but the ticket office at CFR is closed (it's only open mornings), and the machine (I've never checked) only sells tickets FROM CFR, then what are the legitimate options ?

Of course buying in advance is simpler
In practice I'd just buy a cfr ticket
but hypothetically can one assert there was no opportunity to purchase the ticket wanted?
When the machine has failed previously -- not allowing a network railcard ticket on a bank holiday due to programming error -- I opted to purchase another ticket at the correct price (and staff confirmed I was correct later, and that was an appropriate action)
Wondering if the new machines (there's one at cfr being installed) do this any better?
 

bb21

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In addition if I wanted a ticket ROM-SOU, but the ticket office at CFR is closed (it's only open mornings), and the machine (I've never checked) only sells tickets FROM CFR, then what are the legitimate options ?

Of course buying in advance is simpler
In practice I'd just buy a cfr ticket
but hypothetically can one assert there was no opportunity to purchase the ticket wanted?
When the machine has failed previously -- not allowing a network railcard ticket on a bank holiday due to programming error -- I opted to purchase another ticket at the correct price (and staff confirmed I was correct later, and that was an appropriate action)
Wondering if the new machines (there's one at cfr being installed) do this any better?

See Condition 3 of the NRCoC. Buy a part fare ticket, and excess it when you get an opportunity, or at least in theory.

Obviously this is all academic in the context of this journey, as we have established that Romsey to Soton Central is not permitted via Chandler's Ford unless on a direct train, but this should normally work given that longer distance journeys tend to cost more.
 

Paul Kelly

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Though I've read for a while, in this case I can only see
ROM-SOU is shown by national rail enquiries as both directions through the loop
CFR is a stop on the eastern side of the loop, at which all trains on that side stop

Viewing the routing guide the regular customer is very clearly pointed to use the above to determine route validity
You can only use National Rail Enquiries (and indeed any online journey planner or booking engine) to determine validity for a through journey between the origin and destination printed on the ticket. In general terms, if you want to determine whether it's valid to start/stop at an intermediate station you have to determine it manually; the data available to the online journey planners is simply not designed to handle validity calculations for intermediate journeys.

In other words, you can't use the routes NRE has shown for a Romsey to Southampton journey to determine whether a Romsey to Southampton ticket is valid for a Chandlers Ford to Southampton journey. If only it were that simple...
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed, it would make an awful lot of sense for routes to be recursive in some way.

Actually, to be fair, most things would make more sense than what is the case now.
 

planetf1

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See Condition 3 of the NRCoC. Buy a part fare ticket, and excess it when you get an opportunity, or at least in theory.
Thanks.. that's what I'd expected.

Obviously this is all academic in the context of this journey, as we have established that Romsey to Soton Central is not permitted via Chandler's Ford unless on a direct train, but this should normally work given that longer distance journeys tend to cost more.

I read through the thread again and can see the reference to romsey-sou only being permitted on a through train.

That's defined in the routing guide as
Through Train
A through train is one which runs between the origin and destination stations and on
which passengers can make their journey without having to change trains.

So that says ROM-(CFR-ESL)-SOU is valid. It s

I don't see where it says that this journey cannot be broken or start/end after/before?

Of course I've still not read the entire routing guide.. and this is more an academic thought process than necessarily of practical use... but this appears to reflect the information made available in a consumable form for the typical end user -- after all a much more realistic scenario is that I have a rom-sou ticket but a friend gives me a lift to cfr.. or I start at cfr and want to end up at romsey later in the day.
 

Paul Kelly

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So that says ROM-(CFR-ESL)-SOU is valid. It s

I don't see where it says that this journey cannot be broken or start/end after/before?
FWIW I agree with you here. As long as the train you took from Chandlers Ford to Southampton was actually a through train from Romsey to Southampton, I would say it is permitted to start short on a Romsey to Southampton ticket. But it's a bit controversial and not everybody takes that view.
 

yorkie

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Providing you have the ability to defend yourself against any potential legal action, then yes, go for it! ;)
 

planetf1

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Providing you have the ability to defend yourself against any potential legal action, then yes, go for it! ;)

Lol.. a little more prep first.

I've emailed SWT to ask them.. will try national rail enq too. worth a shot, plus also verifying another multi-hop I have already done a few times around the loop for a fun day out! (though at the more expensive price)
 

swt_passenger

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Lol.. a little more prep first.

I've emailed SWT to ask them..

Don't hold your breath. Unless you explain the problem in words of one syllable their normal customer service staff won't get anywhere near an answer.

1. Ask them why the single fare from Romsey to Eastleigh (and Parkway) is so out of step with the rest of the fares from Romsey.

2. Ask them if there was a review of local fares done when Chandlers Ford first opened in order to address any glaring inconsistencies.
 
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