Are Class 700’s really that bad?

[Bletchleyite]

Contrary to much internal railway opinion, "working on trains" is not really practical. Maybe it was with Mk 3 stock and tables at all bays, but to do proper work nowadays needs a laptop, your notes etc to work from, and sufficient elbow room to be able to actually type, or turn pages.

As, on a recent Pendolino trip, I couldn't even get my ticket out of my pocket for the conductor without the chap next to me having to stand into the aisle while I did so, doing any practical work is generally a no-no nowadays.

That's the exact reason 397s have a mostly-tables layout.

 

[fgwrich]

After trying to buy the bogie design from Bombardier given that they didn’t have a sufficient one of their own (this came from discussions I had with staff in the “Passengers” and “Bogies” divisions when I worked there about 10 years ago) - Bombardier’s answer was, quite understandably, “you won the contract, go off and design your own!”

I’m quite glad they did to be honest, because the Siemens SF7000 rides a lot, lot better without any of the knocking noise of the Flexx Eco. I’m also yet to come across any SF7000s with wheel flats - the Flexx Eco is horrendous under a Voyager when they pick them up!

 

[Fincra5]

How can an off-white wall be a black canvas?

Typo... was supposed to be "Blank"...

 

[jon0844]

After trying to buy the bogie design from Bombardier given that they didn’t have a sufficient one of their own (this came from discussions I had with staff in the “Passengers” and “Bogies” divisions when I worked there about 10 years ago) - Bombardier’s answer was, quite understandably, “you won the contract, go off and design your own!”

Wow, they told Siemens to sod off rather than get a contract to supply parts?

Imagine if Samsung or LG turned down money to supply displays or camera sensors to the likes of Apple, Sony etc.

 

[QSK19]

Wow, they told Siemens to sod off rather than get a contract to supply parts?

Imagine if Samsung or LG turned down money to supply displays or camera sensors to the likes of Apple, Sony etc.

Yep they did, because, from what I remember, Siemens wanted the rights to the whole bogie platform, not just the Flexx Eco.

I agree that a contract to supply parts could have been lucrative for Bombardier; but I think the outright refusal could have also been done out of principle - they were still licking their wounds from losing Thameslink; so wanted to give Siemens absolutely no help whatsoever.

 

[southern442]

I think the padding on the seats is far better than other trains which have the same seat design. The harsh lighting is indeed a shame, but only a small one. If they had small tables around the group seats, and plugs, plus if they were all fitted with wifi and seat back tables, I think they'd be near perfect. Yes it's not quite the same comfort as a 377 or 387 for London to Brighton, but certainly a step up from the 319s they ultimately replaced. Plus their quick acceleration and general pleasant ride quality (and surprisingly low noise considering the interior layout) are big pluses for me too.

 

[AM9]

Yep they did, because, from what I remember, Siemens wanted the rights to the whole bogie platform, not just the Flexx Eco.

I agree that a contract to supply parts could have been lucrative for Bombardier; but I think the outright refusal could have also been done out of principle - they were still licking their wounds from losing Thameslink; so wanted to give Siemens absolutely no help whatsoever.

That went well because they now have a bogie design better than any other lightweight design suitable for UK rail use. Sour grapes can be very costly.

 

[Railcar]

What makes 700s objectionable? The squealing (from the inverters that Siemens fit, I've been told on this forum). A pair of 700s, one arriving and the other leaving make a horrible noise.

 

[hooverboy]

I’m quite glad they did to be honest, because the Siemens SF7000 rides a lot, lot better without any of the knocking noise of the Flexx Eco. I’m also yet to come across any SF7000s with wheel flats - the Flexx Eco is horrendous under a Voyager when they pick them up!

I don't think anybody has any issues with the mechanical side of these units.From that aspect they are indeed very good ,reliable units.

The main point of contention is the internal fit and ambiance.
1)Crap,uncomfortable seats
2)No tables,and in the airline seats,lack of tray tables.
3)No USB /mains connections
4)No carpetting inside, the internals are very,very spartan.As someone else on hear said earlier,carpetting is not just there to get dirty,it deadens sounds and stops the reverberations of rattles and so on.
5) Cold light LED,which makes the inside remeniscent of a clinic.

I don't think anybody has any issues with the mechanical side of these units.From that aspect they are indeed very good ,reliable units.

The main point of contention is the internal fit and ambiance.
1)Crap,uncomfortable seats
2)No tables,and in the airline seats,lack of tray tables.
3)No USB /mains connections
4)No carpetting inside, the internals are very,very spartan.As someone else on hear said earlier,carpetting is not just there to get dirty,it deadens sounds and stops the reverberations of rattles and so on.
5) Cold light LED,which makes the inside remeniscent of a clinic.

On the plus side, you could say:
1) Units are quick off the blocks and punctual, more so than the 377/387's they replaced.
2)Door release is quick,so dwell times reduced a bit from previous stock.
3)Luggage space is a vast improvement, overheads are a much better size than electrostars for a train that serves two airports directly.

 

[Milo T.K]

How tall are you? The only trains I have ever been on with worse airline seat legroom than the 720 are the 153 and 150/2.

The 720 seats are NOT wider.



Blank.

Every TOC should put the sticky backed pictures covering the bog walls. It not only looks cool but significantly reduces vandalism.

I am quite tall myself and aswell the problem with 700s I see is that every unit i go on the toilets have been vandalised

 

[hooverboy]

Wow, they told Siemens to sod off rather than get a contract to supply parts?

Imagine if Samsung or LG turned down money to supply displays or camera sensors to the likes of Apple, Sony etc.

I'm afraid this happens quite a lot in business.
A company with a lot of money will attempt to buy the IP of a company with not quite so much money,but a good product.

If they fail,then there's usually quite a lot of lawsuits to try and put the other guy out of business, then buy the assets up on the cheap.

I won't go into detail here,but in my line of work there was quite a substantial case of this a couple of years ago between several very big players in chipset design and manufacture.

 

[43066]

What makes 700s objectionable? The squealing (from the inverters that Siemens fit, I've been told on this forum). A pair of 700s, one arriving and the other leaving make a horrible noise.

On DC or AC?

 

[SAPhil]

Finally - re the “white elephant” comment about the high capacity layout - every square centimetre of that layout was needed this morning. Trains are now very busy at peak times.

Mainly because they are not running enough of them!

 

[AM9]

What makes 700s objectionable? The squealing (from the inverters that Siemens fit, I've been told on this forum). A pair of 700s, one arriving and the other leaving make a horrible noise.

On ac they sound much the same as Electrostars, on DC they sound the same as Desiros (on ac or DC). Hardly bad but obviously louder if standing in St Pancras low level platforms.

 

[Goldfish62]

On ac they sound much the same as Electrostars, on DC they sound the same as Desiros (on ac or DC). Hardly bad but obviously louder if standing in St Pancras low level platforms.

I do like the sound on AC.

 

[43066]

On ac they sound much the same as Electrostars, on DC they sound the same as Desiros (on ac or DC). Hardly bad but obviously louder if standing in St Pancras low level platforms.

The main issue standing there is the horrendous flange squeal when a northbound 700 enters platform B!

 

[GN Boy]

They are really comfortable units to drive and have a great view out of the windscreen, so from a driving point of view, there are hardly any complaints here!

The external appearance is noticeably quite scruffy/dirty compared with the immaculate 717, though.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't think anybody has any issues with the mechanical side of these units.From that aspect they are indeed very good ,reliable units.

The main point of contention is the internal fit and ambiance.
1)Crap,uncomfortable seats
2)No tables,and in the airline seats,lack of tray tables.
3)No USB /mains connections
4)No carpetting inside, the internals are very,very spartan.As someone else on hear said earlier,carpetting is not just there to get dirty,it deadens sounds and stops the reverberations of rattles and so on.
5) Cold light LED,which makes the inside remeniscent of a clinic.


On the plus side, you could say:
1) Units are quick off the blocks and punctual, more so than the 377/387's they replaced.
2)Door release is quick,so dwell times reduced a bit from previous stock.
3)Luggage space is a vast improvement, overheads are a much better size than electrostars for a train that serves two airports directly.

The bombardier Aventras are the opposite, well specified but the build and mechanicals are shockingly poor compared to the 700s and 717s

 

[Railcar]

On DC or AC?

Both. Stand on and compare London Bridge Ps 4 &5 and St Pan LL A&B. The smooth glide of a 377 is much preferable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Contrary to much internal railway opinion, "working on trains" is not really practical. Maybe it was with Mk 3 stock and tables at all bays, but to do proper work nowadays needs a laptop, your notes etc to work from, and sufficient elbow room to be able to actually type, or turn pages.

As, on a recent Pendolino trip, I couldn't even get my ticket out of my pocket for the conductor without the chap next to me having to stand into the aisle while I did so, doing any practical work is generally a no-no nowadays.

Experiences differ. I work every morning on the 700, and never use a laptop, and I can’t remember the last time I used ‘notes to work from’. It’s all on my phone / iPad. No need for a table. And a table isn’t much use anyway when you’re standing up.

I also work throughout on my trips to Birmingham, Manchester, York, Leeds etc. Again, on iPad or phone.
Lots of people do the same.

Door release is quick,so dwell times reduced a bit from previous stock.

That’s not the door release that reduces dwell times, but the layout designed specifically to reduce dwell times, with wide doors, large stand backs and wide aisles.

 

[AM9]

The main issue standing there is the horrendous flange squeal when a northbound 700 enters platform B!

I've never heard flange squeal there, but plenty of wheel howl as trains negotiate the hotel curve. The 700 bogies have shorter wheelbases than their immediate predecessors on the route, (319s and Electrostars), so any flange squeal would be less on sharp curves.

 

[387star]

Caught a 700 today. Only travelled from Three Bridges to Blackfriars but had no problems with the ride for that journey although the train not being too busy helped. I think sound proofing as mentioned is rather good and they seem to be sturdy units.
I'm still impressed with the four year old track through London bridge and Blackfriars remains a fantastic station to explore London from. Much quieter than other terminals and you're right on the southbank!
I'm sure a more contoured base can be retrofitted and plugs and WiFi for all units perhaps not far off given southern 377 refurb
Not sure if anything is in the new contract

 

[AM9]

.... and Blackfriars remains a fantastic station to explore London from. Much quieter than other terminals and you're right on the southbank!

... and the north bank!

 

[03_179]

Yes they are that bad ...

 

[AM9]

Yes they are that bad ...

No they are not ...

 

[03_179]

Yes they are ... if you have any back issues they are awful to sit on for any length of time.

Peterborough to Croydon on one is a nightmare

 

[AM9]

Yes they are ... if you have any back issues they are awful to sit on for any length of time.

Peterborough to Croydon on one is a nightmare

I have severe spinal issues (that is no exaggeration) and I find the class 700's medically correct posture of the seats (both standard and first) fine - even for journeys from St Albans to Brighton. Conversely, the poor posture that so many 'comfortable' trains offer give me problems.
I was offering a personal opinion based on experience but it is like your post, just an opinion.

 

[03_179]

Apart from the seats there are other issues that I and many other agree on.

One mans junk heap is another mans happy train.

Rather have a 170, 180 or a 313 any day

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from the seats there are other issues that I and many other agree on.

The thing about seats is that they are very subjective. I for instance think First and Standard are the wrong way round in the 700s (just as they are in 350/1s) because I dislike Fainsa Sophias and find ironing boards to be just fine - nothing special but not bad either.

 

[43066]

Yes they are ... if you have any back issues they are awful to sit on for any length of time.

Peterborough to Croydon on one is a nightmare

Epping to West Ruislip (1:20ish) is a nightmare on 92 tube stock, but hardly anybody does it (another one I can speak from experience on ).

Thameslink (and 700s) makes sense when viewed as a more extreme example of that. People just aren’t used to trains running through London rather than terminating there.