Are Class 700’s really that bad?

[Wivenswold]

Sadly the DfT couldn't see the benefit, and just saw a way to save a few quid (spoiler; when they get wired up during their refresh, it will have ended up costing more - but politicians don't care about long term views on anything).

Whether they get 3 pin plugs or just USB-A/USB-C ports by the time of the refresh remains to be seen, but it would seem more sensible to have a USB-PC USB-C port on the seat back, than fit mains wiring to every single seat/bay.

It's a shame there's no facility to "like" or in this case "love" a post but for any youngsters here who've never voted keep that line "politicians don't care about long term views on anything" in mind all the time, forever.

I rarely go South of the River but whenever I do the amount of graffiti on trains and buses has seemed worse there since it became a thing in London in the early 80's.

 

[Hadders]

This thread makes me wonder if a way of providing half decent seating while also having adequate standing room would have been to have 2+1 seating with armrests, tables, more padding, and adequate space between the walls and seats?

The configuration would basically be like a 377/6 or 7 with a row of seats missing.

The "ironing boards" are fine themselves, as seen on 377/6 or 7s, but the configuration on Thameslink trains makes them atrocious.

2+1 seating in standard class wouldn't be acceptable. The 700s already have fewer seats than the trains they replaced (so that more people could be accommodated through standing). What is needed is a class 365 style layout. The 365s had the perfect compromise seating plan with a wide aisle to accommodate standing, and just enough room between the seats so that they were comfortable.

 

[Mikey C]

More problems on the Thameslink Sevenoaks branch today, which I noticed as I was travelling back late afternoon from Beckenham Hill. One train into Blackfriiars delayed due to incidents with passengers on the train, the next cancelled altogether, resulting in cancellations on the return journeys back from Blackfriars

 

[jon0844]

Police being called to trains is definitely increasing (often with delays of 20-30 minutes), but the question is; what do the police do when they get there? Arrest people and take them through the courts, or just tell them to 'calm down' and ultimately send them on their way - only for the problem to move up the line, and leave the poor driver on their own with them should they kick off in motion.

(But that's not to be answered in this thread!!).

 

[Sm5]

To me 700s are too austere.
First class with the tables are ok.
But theres no culture or features to a 700, just bland, hard seats.
maybe in a few years if a few bits get rattly and loose they may liven up a bit.

In asia, stock like this would have video advertising screens, news etc full length of the train... only thing like it in the UK was the now scrapped HEX units.

 

[Magdalia]

just enough room between the seats so that they were comfortable.

Not if you are more than 6 feet tall. Legroom in class 365s was awful, and the backrests were not high enough either.

For tall people class 700s are much more comfortable.

 

[43066]

Really surprised that the issues on the Sevenoaks branch are on the leafy end of it (it passes through some lovely places likes Eynsford and Shoreham), as I'd have assumed the inner London section would be worse. I suppose it's the quietness at the Kent end which makes such behaviour easier.

It is surprising when, as you say, it’s such a picturesque route. The comment upthread about school catchment areas is spot on. Of course stopping at Swanley and St. Mary Cray doesn’t exactly help matters either.

 

[Hadders]

Not if you are more than 6 feet tall. Legroom in class 365s was awful, and the backrests were not high enough either.

For tall people class 700s are much more comfortable.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Leg room in the 365s could be tight but I do think it was better than on the 700s.

I don't have an issue with ironing board seats, it's the spacing of them that is the problem. I've consistently said a 365 style layout is needed, that doesn'r mean it has to 365 seats.

 

[JonathanH]

I don't have an issue with ironing board seats, it's the spacing of them that is the problem. I've consistently said a 365 style layout is needed, that doesn'r mean it has to 365 seats.

There isn't anything wrong with the placement of the pairs of seats in a 700, just the lack of spacers between the seats, and the lack of spacing between the wall and the seats.

I'm not sure the actual layout of the seats in a 365 was better, certainly not at their final refurbishment, other than the spacers within the seat pairs.

 

[Hadders]

There isn't anything wrong with the placement of the pairs of seats in a 700, just the lack of spacers between the seats, and the lack of spacing between the wall and the seats.

Agreed. It's the spacing that's the issue although I do find the leg room on the tight size. The 365s had a recess in the seat back of the seat in front which had the effect of giving an extra half inch of leg room.

I'm not sure the actual layout of the seats in a 365 was better, certainly not at their final refurbishment, other than the spacers within the seat pairs.

The 365s also had an inch or so gap between the wall of the train and the seat (except for the pair of seats immedialely adjacent to the doors). I agree about the final refurbishment as they got rid of half of the bay seats and turned them into airline seats.

It was this sort of attention to detail that made them good trains. The 700s could be as good but sadly they lack the detail.

 

[Mikey C]

Agreed. It's the spacing that's the issue although I do find the leg room on the tight size. The 365s had a recess in the seat back of the seat in front which had the effect of giving an extra half inch of leg room.


The 365s also had an inch or so gap between the wall of the train and the seat (except for the pair of seats immedialely adjacent to the doors). I agree about the final refurbishment as they got rid of half of the bay seats and turned them into airline seats.

It was this sort of attention to detail that made them good trains. The 700s could be as good but sadly they lack the detail.

The 700s don't have the seats squashed up against the wall due to "lack of detail", it's so that they could create the widest possible aisle. Any discomfort for the seated passenger was deliberate

 

[Horizon22]

It is surprising when, as you say, it’s such a picturesque route. The comment upthread about school catchment areas is spot on. Of course stopping at Swanley and St. Mary Cray doesn’t exactly help matters either.

It follows on from Southeastern having some of the worst anti-social behaviour issues despite not running through areas that aren't particularly more rough than other parts of London; on-board presence had dropped to a level almost near zero and a culture followed from that. 700s can be walked through easily should some low-life wish to escape, I don't think I've ever seen a revenue member of staff/host, and these are ex-Southeastern services that have had some of the worst revenue management over the past decade or more.

 

[DerekC]

The 700s don't have the seats squashed up against the wall due to "lack of detail", it's so that they could create the widest possible aisle. Any discomfort for the seated passenger was deliberate

The wide aisles were to speed boarding and alighting so that the trains could deliver very short dwell times in the core section. It's called a design compromise.

 

[jon0844]

To me 700s are too austere.
First class with the tables are ok.
But theres no culture or features to a 700, just bland, hard seats.
maybe in a few years if a few bits get rattly and loose they may liven up a bit.

In asia, stock like this would have video advertising screens, news etc full length of the train... only thing like it in the UK was the now scrapped HEX units.

The 4:3 screens on the 700s (the smaller ones on the left) are apparently capable of playing video. But as anyone who saw the graphics and audio recordings for engineering work (one voiced by Geoff Marshall) and the glitching (often causing all screens to fail and require a reset), it soon became apparent that the software wasn't up to the job of even a static image + audio file, let alone video.

If the DfT thought it could make money from advertising, there's no reason they couldn't change the software to include all the information on the wider screen and keep the smaller one for ads - but I bet most people would sooner see live train info being shown, as against TfL info (useful as that is, what about other train services and details of connections at main stations etc?).

The wide aisles were to speed boarding and alighting so that the trains could deliver very short dwell times in the core section. It's called a design compromise.

The 700s are absolute lifesavers during busy periods, which isn't necessarily so much about commuting now, but things like moving people from events, or even when a train is cancelled and you have to squeeze more people on.

They work brilliantly for this, and had the aisles been narrower I am sure a lot of the benefits would have been removed.

Ultimately, they have fewer seats and that may not be ideal during commutes (but many commutes won't be that long distance, and people can accept standing especially if they'll be on their bum all day anyway) and off-peak there's plenty of space and probably nobody trying to sit next to you (unless you're in a group).

As an aside, I think the approach taken by Greater Anglia with open gangways and 3+2 seating is extremely odd by comparison.

 

[Horizon22]

The 700s are absolute lifesavers during busy periods, which isn't necessarily so much about commuting now, but things like moving people from events, or even when a train is cancelled and you have to squeeze more people on.

They work brilliantly for this, and had the aisles been narrower I am sure a lot of the benefits would have been removed.

Ultimately, they have fewer seats and that may not be ideal during commutes (but many commutes won't be that long distance, and people can accept standing especially if they'll be on their bum all day anyway) and off-peak there's plenty of space and probably nobody trying to sit next to you (unless you're in a group).

As an aside, I think the approach taken by Greater Anglia with open gangways and 3+2 seating is extremely odd by comparison.

I remember seeing crowds pre-Covid (and occasionally post!) at London Bridge and East Croydon absoutely hoovered up in no time by a 700, boarding in less than 30 seconds. Quite a sight. An argument could be made that recent stock design has all been centred around the commuter at the expense of the leisure traveller, but such was the orthodoxy and the focus on performance and dwell times 7-8 years ago.

Yes the 720s do have quite the strange layout and aren't quite sure what they're doing.

 

[jon0844]

I'd also venture to say that people feel more confident in moving down the train if they feel they won't get trapped and unable to alight later on (not everyone boards and goes to the end station). I think it's very clear on, say, a 387 that people will try and linger near the vestibules and that obviously slows boarding times - as well as reduces their overall capacity.

 

[Mikey C]

The 700s are absolute lifesavers during busy periods, which isn't necessarily so much about commuting now, but things like moving people from events, or even when a train is cancelled and you have to squeeze more people on.

They work brilliantly for this, and had the aisles been narrower I am sure a lot of the benefits would have been removed.

Ultimately, they have fewer seats and that may not be ideal during commutes (but many commutes won't be that long distance, and people can accept standing especially if they'll be on their bum all day anyway) and off-peak there's plenty of space and probably nobody trying to sit next to you (unless you're in a group).

As an aside, I think the approach taken by Greater Anglia with open gangways and 3+2 seating is extremely odd by comparison.

If you follow that logic, then all trains should have massive aisles and fewer seats "just in case", including ones on "intercity" style routes.

There has to be a balance though between catering for extreme events and providing an attractive environment for passengers during the rest of the time

 

[jon0844]

Of course not. Intercity trains have longer dwell times and are a totally different market than suburban commuter trains - even if they do go from one big city to another.

 

[XAM2175]

In asia, stock like this would have video advertising screens, news etc full length of the train...

With respect, I'd really rather than sort of thing stay in Asia.

 

[jon0844]

We've had attempts at this on other trains, not just Heathrow Express, and it invariably doesn't go anywhere beyond trials.

Frankly, as everyone has a smartphone that can watch anything at any time - there's really little need for video screens on trains. Indeed, about the only thing that 'works' is onboard Wi-Fi serving multimedia content to phone/laptop/tablet users.

One thing that could work well, subject to being cost effective to install and depending on the development of colour e-ink solutions, would be poster/advertising boards that use screens instead of cardboard inserts. That would certainly give lots of options to advertisers, as well as making 'boiler plate' posters more easily updated.

But that then introduces the need for extra maintenance, as well as vandalism suddenly playing an even bigger part (said screens being covered in graffiti or etched).

 

[Magdalia]

I remember seeing crowds pre-Covid (and occasionally post!) at London Bridge and East Croydon absoutely hoovered up in no time by a 700, boarding in less than 30 seconds. Quite a sight.

The key constraint on Thameslink, that does not apply on most other lines, is that dwell times of less than a minute, even when trains are rammed, are essential to deliver 20-24 trains per hour through the core.

Putting more seats into a train is just one way of increasing capacity, Thameslink has increased capacity in other ways, notably longer trains and increased frequencies. It is only the routes that have progressed from old 8 car trains to RLU 8 car class 700s that have lost seating capacity, most notably the Sutton loop.

And it is easy to forget that in the class 319 era quite a few trains were booked 4 car class 319s.

We've had attempts at this on other trains, not just Heathrow Express, and it invariably doesn't go anywhere beyond trials.

Frankly, as everyone has a smartphone that can watch anything at any time - there's really little need for video screens on trains.

The passenger information screens on class 700s are very good, and far superior to anything else that I travel on. But I want information, not advertisements.

And please stop repeating this nonsense that everyone has a smartphone - they don't.

 

[jon0844]

And please stop repeating this nonsense that everyone has a smartphone - they don't.

I suspect the vast majority of users have a smartphone, so it isn't nonsense at all. Even people with a feature phone can probably access basic info (a Nokia feature phone still has Facebook, Twitter etc) and check train times etc. Most, if not all, plans these days come with a reasonable amount of data to remain connected too.

In any case, my point was that people who wanted to watch videos could watch on their phone. I am even more certain that those people without a smartphone aren't then wanting to watch something on a train screen. They're more likely looking out of the window, reading a book or talking to someone they're travelling with.

 

[Recessio]

My only gripe with the 700s is the interior colour scheme. It's so depressing. Like sitting in a dentists. Electrostars and TfL stock tend to have warmer colours and it's much nicer, especially on a depressing winters day. Look at the 387s for example, similar seats, but the warmer colour walls, lights and upholstery really make a difference.

Always thought it was interesting they never put any longitudinal seating in, which I'm normally a fan of (see the SW 455s for a good example of mixed seating), but as the aisles are so wide and accessible, it really doesn't seem to be needed. The seats on 700, while fine, could be a bit more comfortable. Perhaps something like the SW 455s where you still have a wide accessible aisle but the seats are just a bit more comfortable.

It also shows that when people slagged off the Networkers for their internal condition, that they're operating over tough routes.

Saw it described on these forums once as "sh*t trains taking sh*t people to sh*t areas". And for reference, I used to live in Abbey Wood!

 

[Magdalia]

I suspect the vast majority of users have a smartphone, so it isn't nonsense at all.

But you suspect, you don't know. Even if only a few people don't have smartphones, then to say that everyone has a smartphone is a nonsense.

people without a smartphone aren't then wanting to watch something on a train screen. They're more likely looking out of the window, reading a book or talking to someone they're travelling with.

I don't know that for sure, but it is my experience!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When they catch graffiti vandals. They are often not the kind of people you would suspect. They also travel pretty far from where they live.

Often "middle" or similar class , (at least the ones I came across) - and such is the "obsession" as noted , frequent travellers , a recent case saw 2 French vandals run over (and killed) - on the New York subway.

 

[bramling]

It follows on from Southeastern having some of the worst anti-social behaviour issues despite not running through areas that aren't particularly more rough than other parts of London; on-board presence had dropped to a level almost near zero and a culture followed from that. 700s can be walked through easily should some low-life wish to escape, I don't think I've ever seen a revenue member of staff/host, and these are ex-Southeastern services that have had some of the worst revenue management over the past decade or more.

There does seem to be a particular thing with anti-social behaviour in Kent and Essex. Can’t quite put my finger on what it is, but it seems rather more prevalent than other parts of the south-east (though parts of the Portsmouth Direct line seem just as bad at times).

It would be interesting to hear observations on how c2c compares. They also run through some pretty rough areas and is DOO, but does have a fairly heavy staff presence on stations.

 

[TW1306]

In asia, stock like this would have video advertising screens, news etc full length of the train... only thing like it in the UK was the now scrapped HEX units.

With respect, I'd really rather than sort of thing stay in Asia.

I have to agree here; without getting too off-topic the idea of filling every bit of free space on a train with adverts is kind of depressing. IIRC the 323s on the Cross-City line (which I often use during university term-time) have some A4-ish poster brackets in each carriage and I think that should be the extent of it.

As for news screens, I think the current screens in the 700s are fine; they already show passenger loading, toilets and LUL/transport status in London etc - things relevant to the journey, I don't think there's any need for additional things.

 

[yorksrob]

The 2+2 layout is quite good and they are good at soaking up crowds.

The ones I've mainly used have been on the Brighton line and have seemed relatively clean and well kept.

I agree that the seats could be more comfortable and better spaced - there's no need to be able to drive a tank down the aisle.

As I've said previously, these are main line trains going to Coast/Cambridge, so lack of tables/chargepoints was an unjustifiable error.

The decor is a bit grey but not unpleasant. Perhaps they could brighten (no pun intended) them up a bit by installing Bournemouth Blue moquette !

 

[MikeWM]

My only gripe with the 700s is the interior colour scheme. It's so depressing. Like sitting in a dentists.

I think this is my main complaint too. There is zero character and zero inspiration. It is incredibly dull and clinical.

(Not my only complaint though - I also don't like the hard seats, the lack of room for feet, the lack of sockets, the lack of tray-back tables, the lack of wi-fi [1]...)

It's really quite depressing that not so long ago at Cambridge you often had the choice of a 365, a 387 or a 379 to go to London. Now the choice is often between a 700 and a 720, which are probably the two worst internally-fitted classes of train on the entire network. Good job we still have the 387s.


[1] per the above discussion, I have a 'smartphone' but with a very basic PAYG plan that charges extortionate amounts for data, because so far I've not needed anything more and it would be a waste of money to pay for any sort of other plan. So I very much do use wifi on trains, assuming they've bothered to provide it.

 

[Mikey C]

And the Wifi is useful when going through tunnels (which the Thameslink has a lot of, going across London!)