Are paper timetable booklets pointless these days?

[Tetchytyke]

I don't use the printed timetable, but I do use the PDF version of the printed timetable, and have a copy saved to my desktop both at work and at home, as well as a copy saved to my smartphone. This is as true now with the Metro as it was when I lived down in Hemel Hempstead and used London Midland every day.

The pocket timetable tool on NRE is also pretty good (and pretty well hidden) if there's a frequent service run by different TOCs, e.g. Newcastle-York. http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/pockettimetable/search

 

[DarloRich]

What a simple life. Leave business meeting in Moorgate about 2 hours later than planned, Underground to Paddington, so when is the next one, and if I don't quite make it, when is the one after that.

One of the annoyances of on-line systems is not showing the overall service pattern. Newcastle to London, just shows a series of frequent departure/arrival times. But the full Table 26 in the pdf shows that one starts at Newcastle, so I'll get a comfortable seat, whereas the next is through from Aberdeen and I'll have to stand.

Incidentally, I always find I'm far quicker whizzing through this way than my colleague still staring at the next options on their App. So they crane over to look at mine. Never happened the other way round.

I know the service patterns for my regular services to and from London and which ones every hour connect with my branch line. I have it easy in that regard. So for me leaving a meeting 2 hours late isnt that much of an issue. I go to Euston & board next train that connects. Easy. If delayed I retire to pub till it all blows over checking on my phone for up to date travel information.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't use the printed timetable, but I do use the PDF version of the printed timetable, and have a copy saved to my desktop both at work and at home, as well as a copy saved to my smartphone. This is as true now with the Metro as it was when I lived down in Hemel Hempstead and used London Midland every day.

The pocket timetable tool on NRE is also pretty good (and pretty well hidden) if there's a frequent service run by different TOCs, e.g. Newcastle-York. http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/pockettimetable/search

same for me - saved pdfs which I can print if I need to. ( Mainly for giving to other people)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having one small National timetable is a revolution to carrying around 4 telephone dirctories, London Midland, Southern, Eastern, Western and Scottish Region, yes I'll stick with my crutch a little longer if you dont mind

but you could carry a much smaller national timetable along with other many other useful things for a fraction of the size or weight

 

[theblackwatch]

1. Logging onto the computer, navigating a website, saving pdf and printing out?
2. Picking up a pocket timetable at the station?

Which is easier? The price of progress...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

With a paper timetable you don't need batteries. All of my rail journeys are planned by using a paper timetable.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Any planning I do for days out is done online, as are most spontaneous moves on the day. But I do still like to keep hard copies of the timetable with me, should for whatever reason my phone fail me; indeed if the timetable is concise enough it's easier to open that than my phone! I also love reading through and studying timetables and have passed many an hour onboard doing this - it's undoubtedly easier to do in paper form!

 

[Taunton]

I don't actually have a physical timetable any more, I use the equivalent pdf which still follows the same traditional format. But I'm sure if the printed ones were given up that this would go as well, and all we would be left with is the dumbed-down on-line versions.

 

[glbotu]

Can I just interject to point out the inherent confirmation bias of a bunch of people on an internet forum discussing whether or not they use electronic timetabling. The plural of anecdote does not equal data...........

 

[cuccir]

Are train companies obliged to produce paper copies of timetables? If so, then I see that we have a debate; if not, then presumably it's a commercial decision and companies have looked at this issue and decided that the cost of printing timetables is a worthwhile investment in encouraging travel.

Just a note on this though - it is worth remembering that 8-11% of UK population still cannot access broadband because of poor connections - that's 5 million people who don't have the option of it, rather than chose not to. Around the same number again chose not to have it, as Ofcom reckon that 81% of the population have access to broadband. Now I know that you don't have to have broadband access to download pdfs, but clearly it helps and if internet access is limited, there may be other priorities.

Furthermore, at the moment only 66% of the population access the internet via a phone - a majority, sure, but a lot of people (20 million) don't. In other words, I'm not sure it's fair to say that those who don't do this are a few remaining stragglers.

With those numbers, I can see how printed timetables are commercially viable. The government has committed to getting broadband to all homes by 2020 - if that is done, then maybe it would be more appropriate to consider scrapping them at that point, when we can more fairly say that those without it are making a choice to not have it.

 

[cambsy]

I have not used a paper timetable for years, my main tool is Real time trains, which i use to look up how trains are running on routes I plan to use, or if there is disruption on my booked journey, also good for looking up connections when get somewhere, can also track how my train is running as it goes along.

 

[Taunton]

Can I just interject to point out the inherent confirmation bias of a bunch of people on an internet forum discussing whether or not they use electronic timetabling.

You are right to refer to this, and also that as a group there is far more ability to read a timetable than among the general public.

Returning from Leicester to St Pancras only a couple of weeks ago with a (supposedly well educated) colleague, when we just presented for the next service, I said we would let the short Meridian which had come through from Sheffield, Derby, etc and would be well-filled go, and take the full length 125 which had only started at Nottingham and was just a few minutes behind. They were notably unhappy with this, letting a previous train which indicated St Pancras go, "all trains are the same", etc etc etc, and I really had to say "well, if you really want to, get on it, but I'm getting the one behind". I would say, incidentally, that it is the same colleague who cannot understand map directions, only those from their TomTom booming out in the car as they make hazardous last-minute changes of lane in response to these. If the postcode is not in the TomTom database they are sunk.

 

[NSEFAN]

I usually don't use paper timetables for planning trips, I will instead use RTT and make a judgement on whether or not a connection is doable, based on past experience. I will add more padding if I'm unfamiliar with the location, and if it's an important connection to make then I will try to have contingency options incase of disruption.

I will only resort to a paper timetable (usually in the form of posters at stations) or departure boards if I have no phone signal/run out of battery and need to make a change to my journey, however it is becoming increasingly rare in general that there is no phone signal to be had whatsover on a journey.

 

[6Gman]

I honestly cant recall the last time I looked at a paper timetable booklet.

Saturday.

(And - yes - I do have an iphone thing.)

 

[jon0844]

I do think TOCs should consider making mobile apps that contain timetable data in a format more readable (and searchable) on a small screen. Sort of like a mini pocket timetable, but for a phone. It would then be downloaded for offline viewing.

But a pocket timetable has its uses. I used to carry one simply because it showed me (and RPIs) what services did, or didn't, carry first class.

And it's far easier to scan through a printed timetable than doing it online, especially on a phone, if you're looking to see what time a train might arrive somewhere for onward connections. It's still not that quick and easy to do that online, at least if you're just looking for ideas on travel and haven't specific exact times or dates.

 

[Llanigraham]

The cost of many things is going that way:

• If I fly I print the ticket at home.
• If I want hard copy receipts from an increasing number of things bought in a shop I print them at home.
• If I buy a ticket for a gig or theater I often print the ticket at home
• If I buy a coach ticket I print it at home
• If i want all the terms and conditions and the actual insurance certificate for my house I print it at home.

It is the way of the world.

And what happens when you are away from home and don't have access to a printer?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1. Logging onto the computer, navigating a website, saving pdf and printing out?
2. Picking up a pocket timetable at the station?

Which is easier? The price of progress...

Quite!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Are train companies obliged to produce paper copies of timetables? If so, then I see that we have a debate; if not, then presumably it's a commercial decision and companies have looked at this issue and decided that the cost of printing timetables is a worthwhile investment in encouraging travel.

Just a note on this though - it is worth remembering that 8-11% of UK population still cannot access broadband because of poor connections - that's 5 million people who don't have the option of it, rather than chose not to. Around the same number again chose not to have it, as Ofcom reckon that 81% of the population have access to broadband. Now I know that you don't have to have broadband access to download pdfs, but clearly it helps and if internet access is limited, there may be other priorities.

Furthermore, at the moment only 66% of the population access the internet via a phone - a majority, sure, but a lot of people (20 million) don't. In other words, I'm not sure it's fair to say that those who don't do this are a few remaining stragglers.

With those numbers, I can see how printed timetables are commercially viable. The government has committed to getting broadband to all homes by 2020 - if that is done, then maybe it would be more appropriate to consider scrapping them at that point, when we can more fairly say that those without it are making a choice to not have it.

Quite, but as usual we have the urbanites on here forgetting the rest of the UK.

 

[96tommy]

I haven't used a pocket timetable for years but I know of many who still use them (especially older relatives). If they are still around in say 10-20 years time I will be surprised.

However when it comes to tickets I always prefer a paper copy, none of this tickets on mobile business or printing at home.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Working at the Bradford Interchange Travel Centre in 1978 I discovered a cupboard full of pocket timetables for the service to Leeds and King's Cross. I asked one of the clerks if I should put them out on the leaflet racks for the benefit of passenger. "No, lad" he replied, "put them out and they'll all want them!" Without his knowing I later tried putting a handful in a rack and within minutes they'd all been snapped-up. I didn't repeat my initiative!

 

[weastebusdepot]

The major problem with printed timetables is once they are printed, they are set in stone (or at least paper) for six months.

When there is subsequently planned engineering work or disruption, it doesn't matter how many posters are put up at every affected station on the network or if it is announced in the local media for weeks. There will always be at least one person who turns up at a station waving a printed timetable around angrily because the train they can see on paper no longer exists.

 

[3141]

The cost of many things is going that way:

• If I fly I print the ticket at home.
• If I want hard copy receipts from an increasing number of things bought in a shop I print them at home.
• If I buy a ticket for a gig or theater I often print the ticket at home
• If I buy a coach ticket I print it at home
• If i want all the terms and conditions and the actual insurance certificate for my house I print it at home.

It is the way of the world.

Yes it is the way many things are going, though not all the ones you list are unavoidable so far. But that doesn't mean everyone should be forced into every possible change by people who are simply impatient and intolerant. I think both those adjectives are justified by virtually the whole of your first post in this thread.

I have a mobile phone that isn't a smartphone because I only need to make phone calls on it from time to time. I sometimes but not always book tickets online using a desktop computer and I sometimes look up train times online. But a pocket timetable is useful on many occasions - when I'm not in front of the computer, for example - and as several others have said it's quicker to look up, and I can see the whole timetable at once so it's very much quicker if I'm considering more than one possible arrangement for a journey I'm proposing to make.

If someone has a fairly serious degree of visual impairment, how do they cope with what can be displayed on a smartphone screen? They'd probably need some kind of magnifying glass in order to read a pocket timetable, but at least all the info is there and accessing it will be much more straightforward.

 

[PeterY]

I prefer to use paper timetables. I find it makes planning a trip a lot easier, especially if I can see the frequency of the trains and their stopping patterns.

I'm a bit behind with modern phones and all the apps that come with them.

I use on-line for buying advance tickets.

 

[D1009]

It is the way of the world.

Talking of the world, how many European countries have done away with them? I didn't notice any in France, Belgium or the Netherlands last time I was there.

 

[ParleLover]

I think there is a place for paper timetables.

What if you're underground?

Or, are in the middle of nowhere (where there is no Phone Service Cover i.e. Shippea Hill)

Sometimes I like to have something physical in my hands because it feels better for some reason. Plus it makes you use your brain more too so there is always that :P

 

[Mag_seven]

is there really any place, in the 21st century, for printing up loads of paper timetable booklets that almost no body will ever look at?

Obviously not if as you say nobody will ever look at but is that the case?

 

[306024]

Or, are in the middle of nowhere (where there is no Phone Service Cover i.e. Shippea Hill

You don't need a timetable at Shippea Hill, you need a calendar

It used to be said the timetable was your advertising brochure, but technology has made it virtually redundant for the average traveller.

Obviously a forum of enthusiasts will think differently.

 

[jon0844]

If someone has a fairly serious degree of visual impairment, how do they cope with what can be displayed on a smartphone screen? They'd probably need some kind of magnifying glass in order to read a pocket timetable, but at least all the info is there and accessing it will be much more straightforward.

Doro now make smartphones that can do very large, clear, text and also speak but obviously there are limits to how good such a device might show text.

Another reason why a proper mobile timetable app would be better as it could be made much more accessible than my current method of just having a downloaded PDF version.

 

[radamfi]

Talking of the world, how many European countries have done away with them? I didn't notice any in France, Belgium or the Netherlands last time I was there.

I can't even remember ever seeing paper timetables for individual routes in the Netherlands and I've been travelling there for about 20 years. Normal train travellers would buy the timetable book (Spoorboekje) and carry it around which I think was even classed as a best seller.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

If we had perfect data coverage all over the country (which we don't), if NRE worked as it should do all of the time (which it doesn't) and if someone invented a so-called smart phone which doesn't grind to a halt after a month through spending all it's energy downloading crap from google/microsoft/apple or have a crappy battery which never works properly in the first place (which they haven't).....

Then, and only then, you might have a point (which you don't).

Wow. Something about which you and I are in complete agreement. Hooray!

However it is worth questioning what form printed information should take. Leaflets tend to be both insubstantial and free meaning they are all too readily discarded. Perhaps there are two extremes to consider. First the very cheap (to produce), small and only lightly detailed leaflets, like Scotrail. Second the more substantial mini-book covering an area wider than a single line or route with full details and some supplementary information, and for which a small charge is appropriate. FGW certainly did these and I found them eminently usable.

My real bugbear is information which is deliberately incomplete such as timetables which obstinately show only the services run by the producing TOC in spite of other TOCs running trains over the same route.

I also think that just because the number of people who are perfectly capable of actually reading proper timetables is not particularly high that should not mean that it is acceptable to either stop publishing them altogether or to make finding them difficult. SatNav may now be very widely used and undoubtedly there are many who find it much more preferable to using a map or A-Z. But that doesn't mean that the Ordnance Survey is going to stop producing maps for sale to the public. Similarly the railway will still be using timetables for internal use so nothing to stop that information being made available to the public in a similar format. Dumbing down information for smartphone users is happening more due to the limitations of the technology (or its designers!) than because it is in anyway redundant. Technology should be a liberating force, not a restricting one!!

 

[jimm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Troll View Post
I don't use the printed timetable, but I do use the PDF version of the printed timetable, and have a copy saved to my desktop both at work and at home, as well as a copy saved to my smartphone. This is as true now with the Metro as it was when I lived down in Hemel Hempstead and used London Midland every day.

same for me - saved pdfs which I can print if I need to. ( Mainly for giving to other people)

Thing is that in order for there to be pdfs for you to download, someone has to go to the time and trouble of producing them - and paying someone to do that work is where most of the cost of producing the pocket timetables and the pdfs of them actually lies. Once you have done that, the actual printing costs are really not that big.

So if someone decides to do away with printed pocket timetables and timetable booklets, you can kiss goodbye to the pdfs as well.

The GWR timetable book gets a mention back up the thread - as far as I understand it, the version available to purchase at selected stations is basically a modified passenger-friendly version of a book that is principally produced for internal staff use, suggesting that someone at GWR isn't yet ready to put all their eggs in the mobile smart-device basket, despite staff being issued with such things... maybe someone on GWR staff can confirm this?

 

[snail]

I think the pdf print at home option is perfect. If you want a printed timetable you can print it at your cost.

But it doesn't include intermediate stations. If I'm going to Liverpool from Wigan I want to know if there are 2 stops or 12, or somewhere in between. Yes, I can work it out from the timings but I would rather visualise it on the timetable grid.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Why not get rid of everything that's real and retreat in to a virtual world - no need to leave the comfort of your room at all you can even download a video of the journey instead of doing it for real.
Proper timetables where you have an overall view at a glance are far better for planning than scouring slow loading web pages. A handy pocket timetable is easy to find and easy to use.

The Future is Luddite.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Talking of the world, how many European countries have done away with them? I didn't notice any in France, Belgium or the Netherlands last time I was there.

I believe Irish Rail have now scrapped paper copies of their timetables, though they remain in PDF form online.