Are paper timetable booklets pointless these days?

[hassaanhc]

I have previously used a printed timetable to make a note of booked train lengths and class.

Attached is a part of my copy of the Summer 2015 timetable for the Hounslow Loop, when there was a right mix of train lengths while Class 458s were being introduced.

 

[Taunton]

Thing is that in order for there to be pdfs for you to download, someone has to go to the time and trouble of producing them - and paying someone to do that work is where most of the cost of producing the pocket timetables and the pdfs of them actually lies. Once you have done that, the actual printing costs are really not that big

That's not so at all. Production of the main public PDF timetable from the internal Working Timetable, also held electronically, should be a straightforward single programming task. Once done, there is almost no extra cost. For printed timetables there is considerable additional cost for physical printing (generally by an outside contractor), plus all the considerable cost of distribution, which is where the big cost can be.

There can be value in having a competent and knowledgeable editor to determine the best layout and way to collate the information. John Price, editor of Cooks Continental Timetable for a generation, had this very well understood. The mainstream BR timetable still follows concepts laid down in 1965 by the BR Design Panel, and then collated on a scheme done in 1974 when the first countrywide book was introduced, notably a big seller at the time. The format and table numbers just haven't changed since.

 

[jon0844]

The work to create a printed version of a PDF created for online viewing is not high. Most printers take proofs as a PDF and all you'd need to do is covert to CMYK and add registration marks - and even that's automatic on InDesign or whatever.

The data can be fed in so timetables are more or less automated, but there would still be some manual work for pages where things don't fit perfectly. That's when you fill blanks with filler text.

If printed versions were scrapped, you'd surely change the layout and could then make it more tablet/smartphone friendly - although I'd say do both. One data set filtered into two templates.

 

[Temple Meads]

I use a mixture of electronic and printed timetables; if I'm planning a long trip I tend to use RTT, and perhaps pick up a timetable book from a station if I'm doing a ranger ticket.

However if I'm doing a day out in my local area I tend to use the relevant GWR local booklet (which contains all the services in Devon and Cornwall apart from SWT's) to plan what trains to use, then maybe check how they are running on RTT.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

That's not so at all. Production of the main public PDF timetable from the internal Working Timetable, also held electronically, should be a straightforward single programming task. Once done, there is almost no extra cost. For printed timetables there is considerable additional cost for physical printing (generally by an outside contractor), plus all the considerable cost of distribution, which is where the big cost can be.

Given that the electronic NRT seems to contain as many errors and omissions as when the printed NRT was first published in 1974 I'm rather doubtful about this. Indeed Network Rail in recent years seem to have been deliberately reducing the number of headnotes and footnotes to try and reduce this problem though it doesn't seem to have made much difference! Perhaps some of the recently announced funding for the Digital Railway should go into improving this process.

There can be value in having a competent and knowledgeable editor to determine the best layout and way to collate the information. John Price, editor of Cooks Continental Timetable for a generation, had this very well understood. The mainstream BR timetable still follows concepts laid down in 1965 by the BR Design Panel, and then collated on a scheme done in 1974 when the first countrywide book was introduced, notably a big seller at the time. The format and table numbers just haven't changed since.

Timetable layouts are tricky things as there is no perfect solution for a complex network. It would help if we used continental style train numbering but there seems to be a marked disinclination on the part of railway people here to ever do such a thing. As for table numbers they most certainly have changed over the years and it takes a while to get used to each change that comes along. TBF the continental use of fixed numbers to identify both infrastructure routes and their associated timetables is one idea we are better off ignoring.

 

[swt class 450]

Yes printed paper timetables are extremely important. In my opinion they are one of the top most important things when travelling on trains.

Journeys Planners are useless and annoying to use in my opinion. I like to be able to see a normal timetable which shows all services and all calling points. I prefer to fully plan journeys myself using timetables.

Even if proper timetables are still available in the PDF format online it is still not the same. It is easier to read from paper than from a smartphone or electronic device. And even if you print them out they are still not as easy to carry and read as traditional timetable booklets and leaflets.

I normally have around 10 to 15 timetable leaflets in my bag when i travel by train and i would really find it a lot more difficult to travel and plan journeys without them.

So i think that we definitely need to 100% keep printed paper timetables for all TOCs and all services (even the very frequent services).

 

[Tetchytyke]

If someone has a fairly serious degree of visual impairment, how do they cope with what can be displayed on a smartphone screen?

A screen reader, which is better than a paper timetable, unless you print your paper timetable in Braille.

Journeys Planners are useless and annoying to use in my opinion. I like to be able to see a normal timetable which shows all services and all calling points. I prefer to fully plan journeys myself using timetables.

The problem with printed timetables is that they don't deal with engineering changes, etc. If you just plan your journey based on the paper timetable there are going to be times when you arrive at the station in plenty of time for a train that doesn't exist, with the rail replacement bus service having left 30 minutes ago.

I used to keep a copy of the printed timetable for London Midland in my bag and check it's accuracy for each journey using JourneyCheck or NRE, especially on the late evening services. After a while I realised that I may as well just look at JourneyCheck and save myself a job.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes printed paper timetables are extremely important. In my opinion they are one of the top most important things when travelling on trains.

Journeys Planners are useless and annoying to use in my opinion. I like to be able to see a normal timetable which shows all services and all calling points. I prefer to fully plan journeys myself using timetables.

That is simply not true & seems vastly time and labour intensive.

Why is a journey planner useless? If i want to go from MK to Birmingham I can find that information immediately. I know the time of journey, TOC options and price. I don't care about service patterns and I don't care if it the train stops at Canley or Berkswell. Neither do most real people.

Even if proper timetables are still available in the PDF format online it is still not the same. It is easier to read from paper than from a smartphone or electronic device. And even if you print them out they are still not as easy to carry and read as traditional timetable booklets and leaflets.

seems easy enough to read and click through RTT.

I normally have around 10 to 15 timetable leaflets in my bag when i travel by train and i would really find it a lot more difficult to travel and plan journeys without them.

why carry all that rubbish? I carry access to ever timetable in the country in my pocket which i can access and interpret in seconds

 

[berneyarms]

That is simply not true & seems vastly time and labour intensive.

Why is a journey planner useless? If i want to go from MK to Birmingham I can find that information immediately. I know the time of journey, TOC options and price. I don't care about service patterns and I don't care if it the train stops at Canley or Berkswell. Neither do most real people.

seems easy enough to read and click through RTT.

why carry all that rubbish? I carry access to ever timetable in the country in my pocket which i can access and interpret in seconds

I think you have to accept that not everyone is as tech savvy as you clearly are, and that different people have different preferences.

You are expecting everyone to be the same as you, and with the greatest of respect, they're not. We are all different. That's the way of the world.

My experience is certainly that most older people will still prefer paper over online.

Many people prefer full timetables over journey planners, and vice versa.

Rather than somewhat patronisingly dismissing people who don't share your preferences, perhaps accept that there is room for different preferences.

Personally I use all of the options depending upon the circumstances - journey planners, apps, realtime trains, timetable pdfs and paper timetables! Each are useful. Others dismissing journey planners are useless are equally guilty of applying their personal preferences on everyone else with regard to more modern techniques.

There is room for all!

 

[DarloRich]

I think you have to accept that not everyone is as tech savvy as you clearly are, and that different people have different preferences.

You are expecting everyone to be the same as you, and with the greatest of respect, they're not. We are all different. That's the way of the world.

My experience is certainly that most older people will still prefer paper over online.

Many people prefer full timetables over journey planners, and vice versa.

Rather than somewhat patronisingly dismissing people who don't share your preferences, perhaps accept that there is room for different preferences.

Personally I use all of the options depending upon the circumstances - journey planners, apps, realtime trains, timetable pdfs and paper timetables! Each are useful. Others dismissing journey planners are useless are equally guilty of applying their personal preferences on everyone else with regard to more modern techniques.

There is room for all!

I am happy that there is room for all. After all, considering the Equality Act, paper timetables may not be accessible to everyone! I simply think that the need for a paper timetable booklet will decline fairly quickly from here.

But why encumber yourself carrying loads of timetables you wont really need (and are basically out of date the moment they are printed) when you can carry them all on one device? I simply don't get it. I find it really confusing.

PS I am not very tech savvy - I have a basic, cheap smart phone on a pay and go deal & god knows how the gremlins inside this box do the electricalicity thing and make the computer stuff happen!

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it's one of those "less tech savvy and that's the way we always did it in the past" things.

 

[berneyarms]

I believe Irish Rail have now scrapped paper copies of their timetables, though they remain in PDF form online.

Not true - brand new printed route flyers are now available - they ran out!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I am happy that there is room for all. After all, considering the Equality Act, paper timetables may not be accessible to everyone! I simply think that the need for a paper timetable booklet will decline fairly quickly from here.

But why encumber yourself carrying loads of timetables you wont really need (and are basically out of date the moment they are printed) when you can carry them all on one device? I simply don't get it. I find it really confusing.

I suspect it is the case that circulation has been in decline for quite some time!

It's just the way people are, as with many other things in life. As I've said above I use a combination of the two as both have their advantages, people like yourself can't fathom why anyone uses paper, and others can't fathom why you would use anything but! There will be a point in time when paper timetables for rail at least will be obsolete (see Irish Rail already), but just not yet.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not true - brand new printed route flyers are now available - they ran out!

Fair enough, duff gen from my source then! I'm presuming though that the traditional 1-17 (?) timetables as were have ceased production?

(Please ignore my further reference to this in the post above!)

 

[berneyarms]

Individual printed route timetable leaflets are available as per the new PDF files on the Irish Rail website.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Individual printed route timetable leaflets are available as per the new PDF files on the Irish Rail website.

Fair enough. I'm not sure what end of the stick my source got then, as it reported a few months ago traditional paper timetables had ceased.

 

[berneyarms]

I am happy that there is room for all. After all, considering the Equality Act, paper timetables may not be accessible to everyone! I simply think that the need for a paper timetable booklet will decline fairly quickly from here.

But why encumber yourself carrying loads of timetables you wont really need (and are basically out of date the moment they are printed) when you can carry them all on one device? I simply don't get it. I find it really confusing.

PS I am not very tech savvy - I have a basic, cheap smart phone on a pay and go deal & god knows how the gremlins inside this box do the electricalicity thing and make the computer stuff happen!

Circulation will undoubtedly reduce, but you need to understand the basic issue that many many older people just don't do online and many more prefer paper!

It's one of those things - by "tech savvy" I meant using the internet - a not insignificant number can use it but find it daunting.

You are assuming everyone can work their way around the net as well as you can and many can't.

Nor am I not talking about carrying loads of timetables around - the vast majority of people will just have the one for the route they use.

In time I can see things changing, but there is a long way to go before your vision of utopia is reached I am afraid.

You probably will get to a point in the medium term where the printed timetables are still available on request - but again that's a bit down the tracks.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fair enough. I'm not sure what end of the stick my source got then, as it reported a few months ago traditional paper timetables had ceased.

They were unavailable for a few months - the print run had run out and with changes pending they didn't do a new one.

 

[Class 466]

I may be slightly biased, but I use paper timetables daily as part of my job. there is no quicker way to check service provision between two stations and compare it with the alternative I've made, I promise.

 

[DarloRich]

what do you mean?

 

[berneyarms]

I think he means that he finds it easier to look at something on a printed page than on a computer screen when reviewing material.

Many accountants would probably agree!

Again it is horses for courses - we are all different and what you consider the best way of doing things doesn't apply to everyone.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

While Google's "Transit" option is likely to increase the redundancy of paper timetables, I don't think they're quite redundant yet. Yes age "shouldn't" be a barrier to learning new technology, but many allow it to be. That should, however not prove a barrier to public transport access. Additionally, it's useful to be able to not plan public transport and not have to rely on data (which, while I myself have paid for, others may not have). Also, I'd suggest the cost of printing a few thousand booklets probably doesn't break a sweat on the brow of TOCs and if it keeps old people on trains and out of cars, then it's probably a good thing.

I, for one, at the age of 71 still find the folded timetables of both Northern and TransPennineExpress useful in that you can slip them easily into your inside pocket.

I note that age should not be a barrier to learning new technology, but as far as internet banking is concerned, that is not the case why I will not use such a method, as I am old and wise enough to be aware of the number of cyber criminals who seem to have a never-ending source of ways to obtain money by their nefarious methodology.

 

[Skimble19]

At GTR, certainly on GN and I believe TL, as of the last couple of timetables we haven't had the full booklets - they were discontinued due to the cost and supposed low demand. We still have the pocket timetables, however even they are now meant to be hidden away and not racked, they're "available upon request"..

 

[Tetchytyke]

I am old and wise enough to be aware of the number of cyber criminals who seem to have a never-ending source of ways to obtain money by their nefarious methodology.

The old-fashioned ways of walking into the bank with your ID are just as risky, as Gloria Hunniford found out. Someone walked into a bank with a fake ID pretending to be her and walked out again with £120,000 of her money.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16562...nk-account-was-targeted-by-fraudsters-before/

There's room for both paper and tech in anything, paper copies of things are great for scrawling on, and I agree that it's easier to read the columns on a sheet of paper than it is on a smartphone or tablet screen. But the big weakness of paper is that you don't get real-time updates. As I said, I used to use paper timetables and check the accuracy using tech, but eventually I stopped with the paper because the tech told me what I needed to know.

 

[urbophile]

Printed timetables are to online searches, as ordnance survey maps are to satnav or a whole book is to a dictionary of quotations. All you get in the latter case is a keyhole view of a very limited area: you are unable to see the context, or look at alternatives.

Most journeys I make are on lines with a fairly regular service pattern so I rarely need to know much more than the times of departure and arrival. But planning a more complicated journey online is very difficult, especially if you are unfamiliar with the geography.

 

[EM2]

Paper timetables are invaluable when you've been a total klutz and left your phone at home...

 

[miami]

I note that age should not be a barrier to learning new technology, but as far as internet banking is concerned, that is not the case why I will not use such a method, as I am old and wise enough to be aware of the number of cyber criminals who seem to have a never-ending source of ways to obtain money by their nefarious methodology.

Old people were brought onto the internet in the 90s with radio 2. It's 20 years later now - anyone working in the

I wonder if young people are less concerned about bank security because they don't have much in the way of money. That said, just because you don't do online doesn't mean you're safe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38080102

An identity fraud victim has described the horror of discovering his £500,000 home up for sale on a property website.
...
Police later discovered two men had stolen his mail and forged his signature in order to falsify the documents needed to auction the house.
...
Mr To was first alerted to what was going on when he received a phone call from his daughter in November 2012.
He said: "She rang me and said 'where are you going?' I said 'I'm going nowhere'. Then she said 'Why are you selling the house then? I've seen it on Rightmove'.
"I didn't know what to think. I felt terrible. I felt scared."

When I make a payment from my bank I need to provide my bank card into a local card reader. I have to have the reader and my card, and know my pin number. With 'old technology' you just need to squiggle something on a dead tree.

 

[glbotu]

Old people were brought onto the internet in the 90s with radio 2. It's 20 years later now - anyone working in the

I wonder if young people are less concerned about bank security because they don't have much in the way of money. That said, just because you don't do online doesn't mean you're safe

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-38080102


When I make a payment from my bank I need to provide my bank card into a local card reader. I have to have the reader and my card, and know my pin number. With 'old technology' you just need to squiggle something on a dead tree.

I mean, CHIP and PIN (or EVM as its known in technical circles), is not that much more secure. In fact online banking is likely more secure (seems perverse, doesn't it). Basically, Chip and PIN is now ancient (in tech terms, it's from 1997), which means that

a) People have had a long time to break it
b) It works off of old data request protocols, which are laughably simple (the sort that gave us heartbleed, where the first n bytes tell you how many more bytes to request).

In terms of security, your best bet is contactless card payments, because you physically need the card for it to work. Chip and PIN works by the Chip and PIN machine requesting the details from your card, using it to connect to your bank, then asking for authorisation using more details from your card. In fact, there's a setting called "PIN not required", which is basically there for people who are unable to use a PIN pad. The cashier or whoever, has to enter a code into their PIN machine and that allows the transaction to go through without requesting a PIN. All a fraudster needs to do is:

1. Get your bank details (no card needed, just a good old rummage through your bins).
2. Create a simple machine that gives your bank details to a PIN machine, but when presented with a PIN, returns the code for "PIN not required" to the machine when presented with a false PIN.
3. Then, the transaction goes through as a bundle to the bank, who authorises it.

With contactless, the card makes the transaction. The machine is there as a network port functionally. It powers up the card (like an Oyster card) and gives the basic transaction details to the card. The card itself then creates the transaction, which it sends to the bank.

This is way more secure, because

a) At no point does a foreign machine have your bank details.
b) You physically need the card.

Anyway, diversion over.

 

[QueensCurve]

I use both types of timetables. It's not just places like the S&C that don't have internet access, I often travel between Bristol and Southampton and there are several long stretches where the on board wifi gives up the ghost. The other advantage of paper timetables is the speed with which I can look things up, jumping between several printed timetables to check moves is far, far faster that looking up on live timetables.

That part of the Cumbrian Coast line that is between the sea and the coastal cliffs is almost devoid of any mobile coverage.

If you are lucky and have roaming enabled you might possibly connect to base stations on the isle of Mann.

 

[181]

I did a few tests on how long it took me to find a train time by different methods:

Using the last printed national timetable (which is still on my bookshelf) it took 25 seconds when I already knew the table number, or 50 seconds when I had to look it up in the index first. With a route-specific leaflet these times would have been much less, although having more than a few such leaflets at once would be unwieldy.

Electronically, it took 2 minutes 20 seconds to get the computer up and running (quite often it's on already, but by no means always). Using the NRTT pdfs which I'd previously downloaded, it then took 45 seconds to find a table whose number I knew, or 1 minute 5 seconds via the index.

(All these were simple tables where I could take in the whole service at a glance).

The NRE journey planner took 4 minutes 45 seconds the first time I tried it -- I kept getting a message coming up saying that a program was slowing down the browser. When I tried again the next day it took 1 minute 15 seconds. Of course to check which trains stopped (and when) at the previous station on the route (which for that particular journey would be equally close to my final destination) I had to do another search (30 seconds) rather than it being immediately obvious as in a timetable.

I haven't tested the use of a smartphone as I don't have one (checking train times while on a train journey is one of the two reasons that have so far occurred to me why I might want one, but it would probably take more reasons, or the permanent failure of my non-smart mobile phone, to make me get one).

On the question of journey planners vs. proper timetables (I believe 'matrix timetable' is the term -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_timetable#Matrix_format), I agree with this:

Printed timetables are to online searches, as ordnance survey maps are to satnav or a whole book is to a dictionary of quotations. All you get in the latter case is a keyhole view of a very limited area: you are unable to see the context, or look at alternatives.

Journey planners can be useful, but only for certain purposes.

The separate question of paper vs. electronic format for a matrix timetable has less of a clear answer. In principle either will do, depending on presonal preference, although my preference is for paper, provided I have it to hand and it's up to date (why rely on batteries or an Internet connection when you don't need to? -- and a portable device big enough to display a whole page won't be that convenient to carry around).

Some people mention using Realtime Trains to plan journeys -- how does that work? I understand using it to check which platform your train will be leaving from, or how late it was, but using it to plan anything other than a very simple journey would seem very cumbersome. I'm not that familiar with the site, though, so maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Taunton]

Even worse is when an on-line timetable has been "penetrated" by the marketing department, who think the sole purpose of a website is for someone to Buy Something from them. So you go to look up times and are presented at every stage with questions about buying a ticket for the journey,

 

[azz7008]

I am firmly with DarloRich on this one. What would you all do if they stopped printing paper timetables, you would all remember your phone. This forum is out of touch with reality sometimes... If you got to a ticket gate and explained that you left your ticket at home you'd most likely get a penalty.