Are Southeastern an identity confused TOC

[JB25]

I was having this discussion with a few colleagues the other day and I can't ever work SE out... Southern have uniform that matches the trains, and Stations etc, as do LM. First seem to use the same sort of Luveries on all of their branding and uniforms, as do most Stagecoach owned TOCs, but Southeastern don't seem to have a set identity and it all seems a bit mish mash?!

Their uniforms consist of a navy suit, light blue shirts and teal ties.

Most of their trains are now painted in the dark / light purple but then a lot of them are mainly white with yellow doors. Is there a reason they don't seem to have a set colourway?

 

[Prairie_5542]

I was having this discussion with a few colleagues the other day and I can't ever work SE out... Southern have uniform that matches the trains, and Stations etc, as do LM. First seem to use the same sort of Luveries on all of their branding and uniforms, as do most Stagecoach owned TOCs, but Southeastern don't seem to have a set identity and it all seems a bit mish mash?!

Their uniforms consist of a navy suit, light blue shirts and teal ties.

Most of their trains are now painted in the dark / light purple but then a lot of them are mainly white with yellow doors. Is there a reason they don't seem to have a set colourway?

Isn't Southeastern owned by Southern??

 

[transmanche]

Isn't Southeastern owned by Southern??

Southeastern, Southern and London Midland are all owned by Go-Via.

 

[JB25]

As stated they are owned by the same company. But where as Southern and LM tend to all look similar right through the company (I prefer the green used on LM though I must admit), Southeastern just seem to be a concoction of multi colours randomly thrown together.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I don't really think it matters which other TOCs are of the same parent company - look at the many faces of First Group on the network. A lot of it will be down to the decision makers and overall mentality of the company - this can even be reflected in things like which leaflets they produce (FGW promote local lines like their lives depend on it; FSR are a lot quieter). Similarly, this will also expand to image and refurbishment programs - look how all SE stations have a uniform colour scheme.

I will agree though, Southeastern are rather special in ths regard, as I'm sure it has been Southeastern with all the different liveries! Greater Anglia's similar identity crisis is being slowly rectified, but that was a mixture of FGE, WAGN, NXEA etc.

 

[JB25]

Part of me thinks the navy / light blue was due to the fact they probably couldn't source purple suits / shirts, but the real tie really confused me. I do like the two tone SE livery, just doesn't look right when coupled with their plain looking white/yellow 375, 376s.

 

[Bushy]

I don't think they have really managed to get rid of all of the legacy Connex and South Eastern Trains livery, but they have also had several attempts at their own branding.

Regards

Bushy

 

[455driver]

As stated they are owned by the same company.

As are all the TOCs, they are all owned by the Government!

 

[Callum J]

South West Trains doesn't exactly have a consistent image either. 455's painted predominantly red, 450's predominantly blue and 444's mainly white!

 

[Eagle]

South West Trains doesn't exactly have a consistent image either. 455's painted predominantly red, 450's predominantly blue and 444's mainly white!

It's different rotations of the same four colours in the same shape though. And it's useful to distinguish express services (white) from regional (blue) from suburban (red).

EMT use those three colour schemes too.

 

[tbtc]

It's different rotations of the same four colours in the same shape though. And it's useful to distinguish express services (white) from regional (blue) from suburban (red).

EMT use those three colour schemes too.

To be pedantic, EMT only use two of the colour schemes - the longer distance "white" one (158s, 222s, HSTs) and the "regional" blue (153s and 156s) - there is no "suburban" red.

Thinking about it, that means that Supertram is in the "regional" Stagecoach livery, not suburban.

 

[Muzer]

I read somewhere that "suburban read" is actually "London suburban red", a long time ago. That would explain the above, though why they don't use it outside of London is mildly strange.

 

[Eagle]

EMT don't have any suburban routes.

 

[Muzer]

Fair enough.

 

[Eagle]

Probably the closest thing to SWT's suburban routes that EMT have would be the Leicester to Nottingham or Nottingham to Derby stopping services, but both of those continue much further out (to Lincoln and Matlock respectively).

 

[Mintona]

Staff look a lot like they work for Barclays Bank. I wonder if there is a genuine connection?

 

[telstarbox]

@455driver - only East Coast is government-owned, the rest are private.

 

[Bungle73]

Most of their trains are now painted in the dark / light purple

Um, which ones? The only trains that come close to that colour are the 395s, and they aren't purple, they're blue. Probably to distinguish them from the mainline services, which are white.

 

[JB25]

Um, which ones? The only trains that come close to that colour are the 395s, and they aren't purple, they're blue. Probably to distinguish them from the mainline services, which are white.

465s are Dark / Light Purple?!

 

[Bungle73]

465s are Dark / Light Purple?!

I don't see a "purple" train. I see a white train with a dark blue stripe.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The doors could be considered purple though.

 

[transmanche]

The doors could be considered purple though.

Really? This is Medium Purple. This is Light Sky Blue.


Old and new livery by Boxley, on Flickr

 

[rebmcr]

Really? This is Medium Purple. This is Light Sky Blue.

Those are just arbitrary html color names. "Light Sky Blue" actually has a decent red component, and those doors are definitely towards the magenta portion of the colour wheel from pure blue.

 

[Muzer]

All colour names are arbitrary. It's fascinating that cultures that have a single word for blue/green tend to be less able to distinguish, at least casually, between the two colours - to think that language affects the way we perceive the world is amazing.

 

[transmanche]

Those are just arbitrary html color names.

I know. But provided so that those whose monitors may be poorly calibrated can compare a 'purple' and a 'light blue' with the photo and see which one is closer to the colour in the image.

 

[Eagle]

I'd call it cornflower. :P

 

[JB25]

To me SEs colourway looks Purple, to others it clearly looks blue.

 

[SETCommuter]

As a commuter, I honestly couldn't care less what colour the trains and the stations are - they don't make the trains run on time. Getting the basics right - running clean trains on time with polite & helpful staff should come first, all the "nice-to-have's" should come later.

I'm not surprised that Southeastern can't get their colour scheme's right. In fact, I can't think of a single thing they do right.

 

[TheJRB]

I'm not surprised that Southeastern can't get their colour scheme's right. In fact, I can't think of a single thing they do right.

I think this is overly harsh. Southeastern are perhaps one of the most criticised TOC (maybe second after Northern) and often purely because they're a commuter rather than an intercity operator (and the fact that somewhat understandably you can never please commuters whilst the irregular intercity traveller is much easier to charm).

Apart from a couple of occasions, I have found most staff to be friendly. The only couple of issues I've had were with station staff. On the train, I've found all the guards (or "Train Managers" for HS1) to be good and helpful.

OK, they did remove the fast services via Tonbridge when HS1 was introduced, but the paths were put to good use with the additional Tunbridge Wells services.

In terms of train cleanliness and appearance, I have found that it has improved vastly. One of the first journey I took with Southeastern was from Beckenham Junction to Victoria (before I was a rail enthusiast) on an old 465 with NSE seat covers. The 465s now look much smarter and generally cleaner than they did then and the Electostars have had a decent refresh inside recently. With stations, some (Canterbury West for example whose subway used to smell terribly of urine about ten years ago) are much better whilst others still leave a lot to be desired (the Folkestone stations spring to mind).

I generally think that most train lengths are satisfactory on Southeastern (unless you're from Sevenoaks but I don't think any train could take the amount of people that seem to board there in the peak). If they were not, it would still not be the fault of Southeastern (unless they were deliberately under using their fleet) but rather that of the DfT.

The thing I'm most disappointed in SE over is the whole HS1 ticket routeing debacle and the automatic disapproval of tickets not thoroughly endorsed with the "Plus High Speed" mark. This is something which definitely should be looked into but probably won't be.

For the vast majority of cases, I think Southeastern does the best they can with the resources available.

 

[SETCommuter]

For the vast majority of cases, I think Southeastern does the best they can with the resources available.

Stations with no staff, buildings, ticket vending machines or information. Other stations (eg Ashford) where staff seemingly outnumber the passengers yet, as soon as there is a slight delay, all disappear. Blunt, rude staff. Poor punctuality (never their fault, always that of NR). Oh, and increasing ticket prices.

One thing they do not do, is make the best of the resources available.

 

[TheJRB]

Stations with no staff, buildings, ticket vending machines or information. Other stations (eg Ashford) where staff seemingly outnumber the passengers yet, as soon as there is a slight delay, all disappear. Blunt, rude staff. Poor punctuality (never their fault, always that of NR). Oh, and increasing ticket prices.

One thing they do not do, is make the best of the resources available.

With over 3 million entries and exits every year, I would hope that there would be plenty of staff at Ashford. Back in December when the weather turned bitter unexpectedly, I found the staff very helpful. We were told that our tickets would be valid on HS1 and that the next train was stuck at Minster while the last Charing Cross had come to grief at Headcorn. The next high speed service turned up on time and we got to London earlier than expected using a normally "peak" service on off-peak tickets!

I see your point about stations without staff though but it's something I'd like to see the DfT stipulate in franchises. It always seems like the DfT cares more about spending the least money rather than the passengers themselves.

Punctuality will often come down to NR though (things like Temporary Speed Restrictions and signalling or track problems). The TOC can really only be blamed for certain issues such as late trains from the depot, short formations of trains (something I know SE has definitely been guilty of in the past) or extended dwell times (which is normally down to the number of passengers anyway).

Fare increases are also ordered by the government to a certain degree, are they not? It's one of the many disadvantages of this limbo between privatisation and nationalisation that we still suffer (another example being the government having final say on train orders, which together with fares causes the most dissatisfaction with the rail network as a whole).