Are we expecting all train companies to revert to the full March 2020 timetable by December?

[Jurg]

Prior to the epidemic I attended a conference in York organised by Modern Railways where a speaker from Hull Trains reported on the emergence of a group of commuters characterised by the acronym "****S" standing for Tuesdays,Wednesdays and Thursdays commuters. I suspect that this trend has been reinforced. Carrying on a business wholly on the internet is possibly but Zoom limits. I sometimes need a whiteboard not just to show results but need to demonstrate the logic of how I got them. Brainstorming is another activity I find hard to do. Short distance commuting will revive more quickly than long distance commuting.

The effect of this phenomenon on rail commuting could be twofold.

Firstly there's the direct impact of the part-timers and flexible workers who take Friday and Monday off or work from home.

Then there is the indirect impact from the reduction in road traffic on Friday and Monday. For those workers who have a choice between car and train, the reduced road congestion can top the balance in favour of driving on those days.

For example (pre-covid) my car commute Tuesday to Thursday took about an hour, and my rail commute slightly longer. I chose rail most of the time. On a Friday the car commute reduced to around 30 or 40 minutes, while the rail journey time obviously remained the same, so I almost invariably drove on Fridays.

I'm probably not representative of most commuters in terms of circumstances, including an extremely uncompetitive season ticket price and a job that requires me to drive for work purposes on some days, but I'd be surprised if I was the only one.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm probably not representative of most commuters in terms of circumstances, including an extremely uncompetitive season ticket price and a job that requires me to drive for work purposes on some days, but I'd be surprised if I was the only one.

You won’t be. However around 70% of rail commuting is to/from/within London Z1/2, and traffic problems there aren’t going to disappear.

 

[westv]

The word on the streets is that my office might be looking to resume getting back to the office from 1/9.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Tonight's "Evening Standard" - yes I know - indicates London should get back within 2 years to employment levels we used to have. Certainly indications all over in construction , refurbishment of offices and general opening up seem to favour that , along with job vacancies in all sorts of areas.

It will , or course , be different in pattern.

 

[Horizon22]

You won’t be. However around 70% of rail commuting is to/from/within London Z1/2, and traffic problems there aren’t going to disappear.

Plus this is traffic that has been fairly consistent. Anyone can tell you that metro routes from the London suburbs have remained pretty busy throughout, especially for pre 0730 arrivals.

 

[philosopher]

Plus this is traffic that has been fairly consistent. Anyone can tell you that metro routes from the London suburbs have remained pretty busy throughout, especially for pre 0730 arrivals.

Construction workers who usually start at eight have continued to commute throughout the last year, although a lot of them did stop during the 2020 spring lockdown. Going forward, if construction activity in London remains high, then early morning peak commuting into London should remain high too.

 

[Horizon22]

Construction workers who usually start at eight have continued to commute throughout the last year, although a lot of them did stop during the 2020 spring lockdown. Going forward, if construction activity in London remains high, then early morning peak commuting into London should remain high too.

Yes its normally builders, council workers, and probably a few other key workers on too. Construction workers seem to travel fairly long distances too which I guess by the nature of their work is more understandable.

Construction does seem to be an industry that I think could stagger some shifts - they are a significant amount of pre 0730 arrivals (and 0630-0800 could arguably be called the "new" peak). Instead of running 12-car trains into London for 0900, it might be more beneficial for those to be the 0700 arrivals.

 

[gingerheid]

Some people may expect, and they will be disappointed. There is absolutely zero chance of the big London commuter TOCs going back to a full peak service.

Agreed. And while this might be financially damaging to rail in the short term, in the longer term it might make it easier to run services if they don't need a disproportionate amount of infrastructure for the peak period?

Some may choose to work at the office on Fridays so they can go for Friday night drinks with colleagues. Plus working at the office on Mondays and Fridays for some may help separate the weekend from the working week.

I'm in the position that I used to rent a room close to work anyway, because the trains would only have been ok if they did what they were supposed to all too often they didn't. However I'm now wondering if I could get off with forming a plot to do Thu, Fri, Mo, Tu each fortnight, and then go and live in a cheaper part of the country the rest of the time!

 

[WelshBluebird]

There seems to be a bit of a contradiction there though; on the one hand you’re saying that people are working at home, but on the other hand that they have spare time to be going to pubs, restaurants and theatres en-masse.

I don't see how that is a contradiction.

People, even when working full time, have free time you know! And because of the removal of the commute, a lot of those people actually have more free time at the moment than they used to. Why shouldn't those people use that free time for leisure?

Plus, you also have the issue of holiday time where because leisure has largely been closed, people have been saving up their holiday time so we are probably seeing an effect of people now being willing to take holiday as things open up again (anecdotally, we are starting to see that in my work where it almost feels like the summer holiday season has started much earlier than usual!).

Given the way I’ve been speaking to people who aren’t in the office and from background noise “home” appears to sound very much like the pub, restaurant or beach, I have my suspicions!

Most of the background noise I hear is either DIY from someone else in the house or from neighbours, or kids in the background!

And of course in terms of the pub, many pubs are doing "work from pub" kind of offers where you get a table (with a power socket for the laptop), coffee / tea during the day then a pint at the end of the day - if people are getting work done like that then who the hell am I to say they aren't allowed to be there! For a lot of people it isn't any different than using a coffee shop to work from.

Carrying on a business wholly on the internet is possibly but Zoom has its limits. I sometimes need a whiteboard not just to show results but need to demonstrate the logic of how I got them. Brainstorming is another activity I find hard to do.

Those activities have plenty of digital alternatives though. Whiteboarding and brainstorming are easy using digitally using the right tools. Without sounding too much like a salesperson, we use Miro at my work and it has been great. Really allows for those two activates to be done just like you are in a room with a large board (if anything its better because you don't get people struggling to see the board and it makes it easier for multiple people to contribute at the same time).

 

[nlogax]

Those activities have plenty of digital alternatives though. Whiteboarding and brainstorming are easy using digitally using the right tools. Without sounding too much like a salesperson, we use Miro at my work and it has been great. Really allows for those two activates to be done just like you are in a room with a large board (if anything its better because you don't get people struggling to see the board and it makes it easier for multiple people to contribute at the same time).

Miro, Lucidchart etc are fine. We use them quite a bit as a consequence of the last fifteen months.

That aside, quite frankly there's nowt better than doing your brainstorming physically alongside the rest of your team in a single room with a long whiteboard and a pile of post-it notes.

 

[WelshBluebird]

long whiteboard and a pile of post-it notes.

That is essentially what micro is at its real basic use case though, and at least for my team, we've had literally zero issues in doing exactly the same things we would do in a room on it. And if anything it has helped because, as I've mentioned before, we do have some remote team members anyway and so before we'd have to try to set a webcam to point at the board and have someone be their proxy in the room to put post-its up - now using Miro we are all on a level footing and it works great for us, to the extent that this is how we are going to work even when the offices are open again.

As an aside, what I think will happen for companies that can afford to invest in the tech is a bit of a change in how some of these old school activities are done even when they are in the ofifce, e.g. things like the Surface Hub or whatever the modern day version of a smartboard is etc so activities like whiteboarding would still be done digitally, but via a large screen in a meeting room allowing the benefits of both worlds.

 

[D6975]

Here in Bristol, FGW services are almost back to pre-covid levels already. Half hourly to Pad, hourly to Pompey, half hourly to Cardiff and Weston, roughly two hourly on the Weymouth-Gloucester and beyond. The only significant absentee is the Pad via Parkway which is a 'new' service anyway which had barely started to be introduced when covid struck.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Here in Bristol, FGW services are almost back to pre-covid levels already. Half hourly to Pad, hourly to Pompey, half hourly to Cardiff and Weston, roughly two hourly on the Weymouth-Gloucester and beyond. The only significant absentee is the Pad via Parkway which is a 'new' service anyway which had barely started to be introduced when covid struck.

The only thing I am not so sure of is Saturday evening services, which at least to me look like they are still cut back.
Looking at say Cardiff - Bristol or Bath - Bristol, Saturday evening services are finishing pretty early. I am sure it wasn't like that before COVID but maybe I am wrong!

Pretty weird to see the contrast as the last weekday service from Bath to Bristol is 1am (with pretty regular services between 10pm and midnight, with the last train following an hour later) but the last Saturday night service is 10.30pm - a huge difference. Or for Cardiff to Bristol, last weekday service is 11.30pm but the last Saturday night service is 9.20pm!

But as I said maybe I am wrong and Saturday evenings were just so much worse!

 

[D6975]

Yes, Sat nights (and Sun mornings) have been poor for quite a while. XC is bad, last train off Brum to TM on a Sat is 21:12 off N St, so you can't even get back from an evening concert.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yes, Sat nights (and Sun mornings) have been poor for quite a while. XC is bad, last train off Brum to TM on a Sat is 21:12 off N St, so you can't even get back from an evening concert.

Can't speak for longer distances, but I've managed to fish out a PDF of what should be the 2019 timetable (http://www.railwaydata.co.uk/timetables/Dec19/timetable.php?table=275) and at least locally it does look like Saturday evenings used to be more in line with weekday evenings. I wonder if this is GWR not wanting to deal with groups of drunk people yet!

 

[Watershed]

Yes, Sat nights (and Sun mornings) have been poor for quite a while. XC is bad, last train off Brum to TM on a Sat is 21:12 off N St, so you can't even get back from an evening concert.

That's more down to when the standard engineering possessions come on - 23:00 on a Saturday evening at Bristol Temple Meads. That's specifically timed to allow that train to arrive and then disappear off to the depot.

There's always scope for negotiation - Bristol Parkway is now open much later than it used to (due to the IEP depot) - but it's always a question of give and take. If you want a shorter Saturday-Sunday block, you're going to have to pay for it somewhere else.

 

[WelshBluebird]

That's more down to when the standard engineering possessions come on - 23:00 on a Saturday evening at Bristol Temple Meads. That's specifically timed to allow that train to arrive and then disappear off to the depot.

Hold up - is the downgrade in Saturday night services not COVID related then? Appreciate if that is the case we may be going off topic, but if that is true then NR / GWR have done a pretty awful job letting people locally know about that if its a thing that is going to continue going forwards. I am sure most people who use evening rail services around here are expecting later evening services to come back and if they aren't then that is a damn poor job from everyone involved, especially as it looks like at least initially to have used the temporary COVID related service downgrades to hide away a permanent downgrade! If it is related to the short(ish) term engineering programmed going on at Temple Meads at the moment I can forgive it, but making people aware of it still would be good considering the huge imbalance between that and a normal weeknight service.

 

[Watershed]

Hold up - is the downgrade in Saturday night services not COVID related then? Appreciate if that is the case we may be going off topic, but if that is true then NR / GWR have done a pretty awful job letting people locally know about that if its a thing that is going to continue going forwards. I am sure most people who use evening rail services around here are expecting later evening services to come back and if they aren't then that is a damn poor job from everyone involved, especially as it looks like at least initially to have used the temporary COVID related service downgrades to hide away a permanent downgrade! If it is related to the short(ish) term engineering programmed going on at Temple Meads at the moment I can forgive it, but making people aware of it still would be good considering the huge imbalance between that and a normal weeknight service.

I'm not au fait with the particular reasoning as to why it's 23:00. It would make sense if it's in connection with the Bristol East works though.

 

[Ianno87]

Prior to the epidemic I attended a conference in York organised by Modern Railways where a speaker from Hull Trains reported on the emergence of a group of commuters characterised by the acronym "****S" standing for Tuesdays,Wednesdays and Thursdays commuters. I suspect that this trend has been reinforced. Carrying on a business wholly on the internet is possibly but Zoom has its limits. I sometimes need a whiteboard not just to show results but need to demonstrate the logic of how I got them. Brainstorming is another activity I find hard to do. Short distance commuting will revive more quickly than long distance commuting.

I don't see how that is a contradiction.

People, even when working full time, have free time you know! And because of the removal of the commute, a lot of those people actually have more free time at the moment than they used to. Why shouldn't those people use that free time for leisure?

Plus, you also have the issue of holiday time where because leisure has largely been closed, people have been saving up their holiday time so we are probably seeing an effect of people now being willing to take holiday as things open up again (anecdotally, we are starting to see that in my work where it almost feels like the summer holiday season has started much earlier than usual!).


Most of the background noise I hear is either DIY from someone else in the house or from neighbours, or kids in the background!

And of course in terms of the pub, many pubs are doing "work from pub" kind of offers where you get a table (with a power socket for the laptop), coffee / tea during the day then a pint at the end of the day - if people are getting work done like that then who the hell am I to say they aren't allowed to be there! For a lot of people it isn't any different than using a coffee shop to work from.

Those activities have plenty of digital alternatives though. Whiteboarding and brainstorming are easy using digitally using the right tools. Without sounding too much like a salesperson, we use Miro at my work and it has been great. Really allows for those two activates to be done just like you are in a room with a large board (if anything its better because you don't get people struggling to see the board and it makes it easier for multiple people to contribute at the same time).

I just can't brainstorm as well remotely, regardless of tool. There's not as much ability to "bounce" off others in the room to be as creative as you would be in person. As I've said before, in results term it's a 'B' grade for the meeting outcome rather than an 'A+'

 

[Bald Rick]

I just can't brainstorm as well remotely, regardless of tool. There's not as much ability to "bounce" off others in the room to be as creative as you would be in person. As I've said before, in results term it's a 'B' grade for the meeting outcome rather than an 'A+'

+1 for that.

In fact +12.... I was in a meeting last week with 11 others, in a meeting room, and we were so much more productive. So much easier to pick up on body language, reactions, etc., and also much quicker and easier for people to make their point. Also easier to make sure everyone has the opportunity to say something, and there’s nowhere to hide. That particular meeting is in person from now on.

 

[nlogax]

In fact +12.... I was in a meeting last week with 11 others, in a meeting room, and we were so much more productive. So much easier to pick up on body language, reactions, etc., and also much quicker and easier for people to make their point. Also easier to make sure everyone has the opportunity to say something, and there’s nowhere to hide. That particular meeting is in person from now on.

I envy you for being able to attend a physical meeting! Maybe next month here..we'll see.

 

[Hadders]

I was at an 'in person' meeting yesterday. 10 of us in the room. Much, much more productive than online. I spoke to a number of colleagues afterwards and we all had the same opinion. We will be meeting in person going forwards.

 

[westv]

What is the current guidance as regards large numbers of people in the same room?

 

[Failed Unit]

What is the current guidance as regards large numbers of people in the same room?

That actually is a grey area.

Rule of 6 or 2x bubbles is the easy one. (Saves all the problems about who to exclude if you have a family of 3 and a family of 4 meeting up)

From the business point of view our policy is 1m+ in the meeting room, which in our largest room (which would seat 32 normally) we are down to 12. I am sure the HSE person has read it to the letter, but the official guidance is try and keep it to 6 externally and respect the restrictions on the rooms internally.

The problem most of us are finding with online is it is difficult to stay engaged (maybe the meetings are too long) - If they have a break you don't get the chance to speak to people outside. I can see the hybrid model remaining, but even before covid the person that asked for the bridge because the couldn't attend in person always got less out of the meeting then those in person.

I was in London (The City) yesterday, still without its buzz and probably 1/4 of the people I am used to seeing.

 

[island]

• Government guidance remains unchanged from advising people to work from home where they can, unless necessary. Many companies like mine have had their offices available for a few weeks now (in order to facilitate onboarding, meetings and for peoples' mental health who struggle to work remotely), but have had to be careful about 'inviting' people back because of this.​
• However, my company have already published their 'return to office' strategy which will apply from social distancing ending, and it is essentially a requirement for people to come in for 2 days a week at minimum (on an average week) as we've invested significantly in office refurbishment on fewer desks and more meeting rooms / collaborate spaces. I can't speak for other companies but I know of at least eight large Tech companies with a very similar policy.​
  • I have two friends who work for Government Departments in Westminster and they are already discussing a requirement to be in the office 50% of the time or they may lose the 'London weighting' on salary. Thinking behind it being it's hard to justify public money for people if they're not actually using the money to commute.​

The 40%/2 days a week thing is common and is due to a HMRC rule around permanent workplaces. If you spend less than 40% of your time at a workplace it ceases to be your permanent workplace – there are of course exceptions for the present pandemic – and that allegedly causes Big Tax Implications. So my head of HR told me anyway; I have no particular desire to go down that rabbit hole.

The principle you mentioned around London weightings is also relevant.

 

[Watershed]

What is the current guidance as regards large numbers of people in the same room?

You could have a gathering of up to 6 people or 2 households without needing to consider the whys and wherefores.

If it's more than that, you'd presumably be relying on the exception that it's "reasonably necessary for work purposes".

That is quite a broad exception, and the English Regulations don't require any specific measures to be taken as regards Covid safety if you do have a meeting of more than 6 people.

However, there is the general employer's duty of health and safety to be considered. That probably requires some mitigations to be taken, but I don't think they must necessarily be as stringent and disruptive as the government guidance suggests.

Many businesses have simply decided to follow the government guidance anyway, to be on the safe side.

 

[Bald Rick]

I was in London (The City) yesterday, still without its buzz and probably 1/4 of the people I am used to seeing.

Interesting. I walked across London (Blackfriars to Euston) in the week, and it was about half normal busy-ness south of Holborn, but more or less back to normal north.

 

[Failed Unit]

Interesting. I walked across London (Blackfriars to Euston) in the week, and it was about half normal busy-ness south of Holborn, but more or less back to normal north.

The area around Kings Cross seemed more normal as did the general area around Angel. It was Old Street south I noticed it was a lot quieter. - I walked from Kings Cross - Moorgate just to have a look around.

 

[Bald Rick]

The area around Kings Cross seemed more normal as did the general area around Angel. It was Old Street south I noticed it was a lot quieter. - I walked from Kings Cross - Moorgate just to have a look around.

Ah, so we are consistent then.

This matches the (logical) theory that it is the big office based firms (mostly based in the city) where people are working at home more, but for smaller firms and non office based workers who are back in as normal.