Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[RELL6L]

Is this purely from bustimes, purely from observation using bustimes as a back-up, or a mixture of both?

There were roadworks in Caversham on the day you quote (at least according to local news and council websites, and Reading Buses), starting at approx. 7pm. It seems as though the driver of that vehicle got a bit lost - perhaps confused because they weren't expecting them, being due there before 7pm? Perhaps due to having to follow inadequate guidance (trying to divert using Google maps on a phone and not break the law at the same time? Perhaps because of vehicles setting up the roadworks meaning some turns were inaccessible? - but made it to Reading eventually. Not sure you can tell for certain that the 850 journey was "clearly running empty" either - as it left 75 minutes late, it may have only carried a few infill passengers and run fast where appropriate. Otherwise, why run through Marlow, rather than sticking with the A404 as far as Handy Cross?

I agree with you as to what happened in Caversham, clearly Caversham Bridge was closed around that time. I am sure that when you get going the wrong way in a bus it is not easy to just turn round, and the traffic was probably awful too. After that, given that the vehicle tracked going places at times which fit together, I think one can be confident that it went the way BusTimes says it went. Sometimes tracking is patchy, here it was consistent. It did not divert through Twyford and headed straight to the A404, I am sure it would have been empty. As for why it diverted before reaching Handy Cross, sometimes traffic up the A404 can be quite bad and it can be safer to divert this way. It didn't go into Marlow though.

There are oddities with the tracking, Streetlite 2325 in particular. Often it tracks for a journey or two then vanishes, not sure if has really stopped or just stopped tracking. Yesterday it tracked from 06.22 until 06.27 but it may have continued all day as nothing else went on its duty. Today it has tracked just between 10.29 and 10.33 and again nothing else has been on its board. Some of the Versas are quite flaky too, 2957 appears to have given up at 6.18 yesterday and 7.47 today but not sure it really has. One - 2979 - appears to have gone off fleet (it hadn't been out for ages) and there is a spare ticket machine operating, but this still doesn't leave enough vehicles given that nothing gets any break between the peaks. I suspect maintenance is minimum legal plus breakdowns only, no chance for anything preventative.

 

[richard13]

I Squared deal

Firstly the deal will not actually complete until 2024 and one document says before April - so nothing changes soon - except with that knowledge some decisions will be different.

Secondly I Squared are not a current UK bus operator, so they are not buying it to close it down and remove competition. They are buying it as an investment with the hope of making a decent return on their purchase over the longer term. It has also been said that they have (up to?) £2bn to further invest in Arriva to make that happen. Things will change but not tomorrow. These Investment Companies have some good brains to make money and will talk to outside "experts" and research the best way to help the management of their investments.

General shareholders need to see a good return without investment or management assistance. DB just needed cash yesterday and tomorrow; their original plans and aspirations just didn't work out; the world changed. These Investment Companies are different.

 

[duncombec]

A lot will depend on the precise order the conditions precedent/closing conditions (whichever terminology you prefer) will take place, and when they meet. I've seen it said, for example, that the deal must be approved by both the DB Supervisory Board and the German Federal Ministry of Transport. Can the latter take place without the former?

Based on press releases from past years, the Supervisory Board usually meets towards the end of November. It may be too close to that meeting to warrant an extraordinary meeting before that. Does ministerial approval need parliamentary approval? What effects might there be of a takeover in other countries the Arriva Group operates in? What contractual novation terms are there for things like franchises?

It's very easy to see why they need up to six months (I guess April is stated as an alternative to "by the end of the first quarter")... Now the offer has been accepted, there is a very big house to work through before completion!

 

[450.emu]

I was under the impression that DB was only selling the British operations therefore British Bus was a suggestion. Fragmentation of the North Wales operation would be a dsiaster because it would take a lot of small firms to cover what Arriva does in the coastal strip and Wrexham.

I was being a little facetious, after seeing this government that has let things decay for 13 years think by tacking the "British" name to something will give it a new lease of life

See the mess DB is in (the way they were trying to blame Arriva for their woes despite being profitable, having just won a huge contract in Slovenia IIRC...) there's an article in the Guardian explaining how things are starting to unravel as recession bites...

It would be ironic if a financially strong Arriva, a couple of years down the line buy DB

 

[riceuten]

"They are buying it as an investment with the hope of making a decent return on their purchase over the longer term" - or to strip out what value there is and dump the rest.

 

[JD2168]

It will be interesting to see what changes I-squared will make to Arriva. The Selby operation seems to have been rather unloved for a while with many cutbacks on services. I am not sure how the 51 makes much profit considering the amount of dead running between Norton & Selby, indeed some early & late journeys are being extended to Whitley at the end of this month. The rest apart from the 415 seems to see some older vehicles. Some of the vehicles are still in the old livery. The rest of the Yorkshire operation seems to see plenty of cutbacks with little in the was of improvement.

 

[WAB]

It will be interesting to see what changes I-squared will make to Arriva. The Selby operation seems to have been rather unloved for a while with many cutbacks on services. I am not sure how the 51 makes much profit considering the amount of dead running between Norton & Selby, indeed some early & late journeys are being extended to Whitley at the end of this month. The rest apart from the 415 seems to see some older vehicles. Some of the vehicles are still in the old livery. The rest of the Yorkshire operation seems to see plenty of cutbacks with little in the was of improvement.

With the Selby operation, only the 415 amounts to much. Particularly if the service to Leeds falls under franchising, then I don't see the Selby operations ever getting better than they are, and indeed may end up being ditched altogether if the depot's PVR ends up being more 15 than 25.

If I Squared put a little bit of money into Arriva UK Bus, then you might see a few cascaded vehicles to replace the earlier Enviro 200s/400s and perhaps some new MMCs for the 415. They are going to be looking for fairly solid returns for any major route enhancements, so imo that only leaves a frequency and hours of operation boost to the 401 to Goole. It'll be the same story in many places across the group - to bring back a useful service where there is not already one will require a fair bit of money for limited returns.

 

[pm2304877]

It's just that Arriva Cymru is considered to be the "weakest link" due to its semi rural territory with green belt between the populated places. Small operators don't pay drivers well and invest either, although Arriva hasn't done too well there admittedly despite Bangor getting Volvo B8RLEs recently. Small operators do get new vehicles through external funding for specific contracts but I don't think the fare box funds them!

 

[Geordie driver]

"They are buying it as an investment with the hope of making a decent return on their purchase over the longer term" - or to strip out what value there is and dump the rest.

I don't think there is much of value to strip out to be honest, a run down fleet and some fairly worthless bits of land in areas where there loads of similar bits of land unused.

Last business I would be investing my money in, but what do I know?

I would be investing in a recovery company, they must make a fortune out of Arriva round here. One of the big recovery trucks sits all day near the junction of the A1 and the A19 to be handy for the inevitable multiple breakdowns of my local Arriva fleet.

 

[Blindtraveler]

What arriva really needs is a massive order of about five or six hundred buses to really bring fleet standards across multiple operations up to scratch, maybe this is the sort of investment that the new operator will make and once they've stripped out the losses incurred by running older vehicles with higher maintenance running and breakdown costs not to mention better fuel efficiency or whatever they will then get a better picture of which operations are likely to make a go of it and which are a dead loss

 

[Tetchytyke]

"They are buying it as an investment with the hope of making a decent return on their purchase over the longer term" - or to strip out what value there is and dump the rest.

As I’ve said on this thread and the thread on the railway board, that isn’t the usual approach taken by private equity in the infrastructure sector. They are generally in it for the medium to longer term. They are generally in it for the consistent returns.

I don’t know much about I Squared, but I’d be surprised if they act too differently. Though I’ve been surprised before.

The underlying Arriva business is profitable. The problem is DB have been taking these profits- and more- to shore up other parts of their empire.

 

[MasterSpenny]

What arriva really needs is a massive order of about five or six hundred buses to really bring fleet standards across multiple operations up to scratch, maybe this is the sort of investment that the new operator will make and once they've stripped out the losses incurred by running older vehicles with higher maintenance running and breakdown costs not to mention better fuel efficiency or whatever they will then get a better picture of which operations are likely to make a go of it and which are a dead loss

The 500-600 buses seem to be going for mostly London, with just 24 StreetDeck Electroliners coming to the Midlands operation this Autumn. Only the following zero emission buses are helping:
50 + 24 Wrightbus Electroliners for Arriva London - from what I have seen these the London examples have been entering service. (74 Electroliners total)
10 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 FCEVs for Arriva Merseyside.

All of the above is from physical observation.

There is probably more to come in the coming months and into next year.
So if we put the current amount in, thats 84/600 buses towards bringing the fleet to being more modern.

 

[gka472l]

The 500-600 buses seem to be going for mostly London, with just 24 StreetDeck Electroliners coming to the Midlands operation this Autumn. Only the following zero emission buses are helping:
50 + 24 Wrightbus Electroliners for Arriva London - from what I have seen these the London examples have been entering service. (74 Electroliners total)
10 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 FCEVs for Arriva Merseyside.

All of the above is from physical observation.

There is probably more to come in the coming months and into next year.
So if we put the current amount in, thats 84/600 buses towards bringing the fleet to being more modern.

The 10 FCEV's for Arriva Merseyside are actually Merseytravel funded and owned (as are the 10 identical examples for Stagecoach Merseyside).

HTH

 

[pm2304877]

The 10 FCEV's for Arriva Merseyside are actually Merseytravel funded and owned (as are the 10 identical examples for Stagecoach Merseyside).

HTH

And the FCEVs are on their third year index plate only having done test runs.
Among the vehicles Arriva needs are 125 Switch Solos (or equivalent). There's a lot of 15+ year old buses of varying types.

 

[gka472l]

And the FCEVs are on their third year index plate only having done test runs.
Among the vehicles Arriva needs are 125 Switch Solos (or equivalent). There's a lot of 15+ year old buses of varying types.

4900 has been doing one return run on the 10 of a weekday morning, had a trip on it myself last week. https://bustimes.org/vehicles/amsy-4900

 

[Blindtraveler]

Ok I should perhaps have been a little clearer, this 600 or so exclude London operations

 

[A0wen]

Ok I should perhaps have been a little clearer, this 600 or so exclude London operations

That won't happen - Arriva operate about 6000 buses of which 1500 are in London - so you're looking at replacing about 15% of the fleet.

 

[Geordie driver]

Is there an actual order for 500 to 600 new buses for Arriva to be used outside London, or is that just forum speculation?

How much do 600 new buses cost? Best part of a billion pounds? I dunno.

In the unlikely event of it ever happening, would they be decent spec, smooth, warm in winter, cool in summer to tempt people out of their cars, or will it be bargain basement banging and rattling heaps from day 1, like much of their current fleet?

I assume new investors know what they are doing, but if they are hoping to cut a few costs, cut a few corners, squeeze a bit more juice out a fruit that dried up ages ago and make more money they are in for a big shock.

 

[Gareth1980]

Based on a brand new bus being somewhere between £200k and £250k , I would say 600 buses would set you back something like £135 to £150 Million?

 

[Geordie driver]

Based on a brand new bus being somewhere between £200k and £250k , I would say 600 buses would set you back something like £135 to £150 Million?

Cheers, my maths is way off, in fairness, I am out with my dogs.

 

[Blindtraveler]

It's just been pointed out on a local bus passenger Facebook group here in Medway that Arriva have not yet officially confirmed if they will remain part of the two pound single fare cap from the end of December. Does anyone think it's likely that they may pull out and therefore be the the only large operators to not participate?

 

[ScotGG]

Nothing would be surprising with Arriva in Kent.

Hopeless organisation.

 

[Steelwheels]

Based on a brand new bus being somewhere between £200k and £250k , I would say 600 buses would set you back something like £135 to £150 Million?

And if you are purchasing ZE (Zero Emission) you can double that vehicle purchase price......

 

[Blindtraveler]

Nothing would be surprising with Arriva in Kent.

Hopeless organisation.

I can't find any reference to them committing to it in any of their operations to be honest so it could be that there's a group wide decision pending on whether they take part or not, failure to do so would not make them popular with a large number of the travelling public

 

[MasterSpenny]

Is there an actual order for 500 to 600 new buses for Arriva to be used outside London, or is that just forum speculation?

It was just speculation/ideas

 

[philthetube]

People don't give a monkeys about bus operators names, 2 weeks of good service and arriva would be marvelous.

 

[duncombec]

It's just been pointed out on a local bus passenger Facebook group here in Medway that Arriva have not yet officially confirmed if they will remain part of the two pound single fare cap from the end of December. Does anyone think it's likely that they may pull out and therefore be the the only large operators to not participate?

I can't find any reference to them committing to it in any of their operations to be honest so it could be that there's a group wide decision pending on whether they take part or not, failure to do so would not make them popular with a large number of the travelling public

They have done this with each of the extensions to the scheme so far, and it's never been entirely clear whether this is simply down the Customer "Service" not having been told, or whether they have indeed waited until every i is dotted and t crossed before admitting to it. On the basis that those responding to tweets seem to need their hand holding to answer basic queries*, I find it doubtful that a standard customer services representative would know, so is just sticking to a line.

It would not be surprising if the major groups had been somewhat arm-twisted into joining the scheme, and I suspect it unlikely that there will be any significant change now... not least because where Arriva is concerned it may have an effect on any agreements with the intended new owners (there are usually forms of standstill clause, whereby such a significant financial decision would need approval from the prospective buyer).

* I should note that this is specifically not intended to re-open a debate on how good they are or not, merely to point out that an agent unable to connect a bus stop with a route number in internal systems without having to ask the original question poser is unlikely to be aware of the precise status of the fare cap negotiations.

 

[Deerfold]

I assume new investors know what they are doing, but if they are hoping to cut a few costs, cut a few corners, squeeze a bit more juice out a fruit that dried up ages ago and make more money they are in for a big shock.

Providing a decent website where people can find bus timetables and a bit of advertising could make a fair bit of difference in areas where the service is reasonable.

 

[LUYMun]

The new timetables for Hertfordshire have gone up at;

Arriva Bus

www.arrivabus.co.uk

That's yet another recast of the Watford, let alone Herts, network now - I've lost count the number of times the bus services have been changed since I departed from that scene.

 

[Snex]

The 500-600 buses seem to be going for mostly London, with just 24 StreetDeck Electroliners coming to the Midlands operation this Autumn. Only the following zero emission buses are helping:
50 + 24 Wrightbus Electroliners for Arriva London - from what I have seen these the London examples have been entering service. (74 Electroliners total)
10 Alexander Dennis Enviro 400 FCEVs for Arriva Merseyside.

All of the above is from physical observation.

There is probably more to come in the coming months and into next year.
So if we put the current amount in, thats 84/600 buses towards bringing the fleet to being more modern.

There's 47 Double Deckers coming to Wakefield (https://news.arriva.co.uk/news/arri...ion-buses-in-west-yorkshire-and-hertfordshire) and 13 Double Deckers and a Single Decker coming to Blyth (https://www.route-one.net/news/52-more-battery-electric-buses-for-north-east-england/). No date confirmed yet for them though.