the sniper
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Sep 2007
- Messages
- 3,498
If you could ever forget how disconnected some people in this discussion are from the inner workings of this industry, it's statements like this that are the ultimate reminder...
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Arriva Rail North DOO
- Thread starter Andrew32
- Start date
- Status
If you could ever forget how disconnected some people in this discussion are from the inner workings of this industry, it's statements like this that are the ultimate reminder...
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
How could people who pick their battles be millitant? I wonder how many other who work in the industry would agree with you that the that ASLEF are millitant?
Nowhere near as bad as they used to be, and with good reason ....as they find it a lot easier to get decent pay rises out of the private sector than the state.
And the more money people earn the less likely they are to be left wing!
Indeed , the amount of drivers who own more than 1 property is amazing nowadays, and best of luck to them. Clearly they have become very adept at creating wealth for themselves.
I think its fair enough as the job is more complex and has enormous safety responsibilities. Its fair that when DOO is introduced they receive a very large pay increase, guards becoming OBS are kept on a legacy grade and new OBS are paid less than guards. Not many higher rate tax payers and / or landlords will want Corbyn's revolution to happen!
Bromley boy
Established Member
- Joined
- 18 Jun 2015
- Messages
- 4,609
Yes indeed.
It’s a tricky one for ASLEF who, after all, represent drivers. ASLEF and its members have never asked for DOO. It has been forced upon them. With (significantly) increased responsibility it’s natural that drivers’ pay should be increased.
By negotiating such an increase on behalf of their members they are then accused of “selling out” the guards.
Last edited:
Overspeed110
Member
- Joined
- 16 Nov 2017
- Messages
- 117
What Absolute B.S.
I think the phrase is {{citation needed}}.
Although I appreciated the reason for the references to left wing and the RMT I think the bigger question that needs answering is when will it end. No matter what RMT's reasons for the strike are (actual not the "passenger safety" excuse they peddle out) is how will it be resolved. I wonder whats going on within RMT ranks. Are ordinary members supportive of the strike or just striking because they have been brought up not to break the strike. Have they had a revised ballot recently? Also is it a united front in RMT's ranks or are there members that are getting fed up with the strikes? If there is to be a resolution to this then the only way will be some kind of revolt in the RMT caucus. Failing that we will continue to have strikes untill DOO is implemented.
Really? There has been a resolution in another DOO dispute and from what I gather both sides have come to an amicable agreement. So maybe you should stop your attempts to make out that RMT members are all militant, refuse to compromise, all want to strike for the sake of striking, blah blah blah and actually understand that there are very legitimate concerns involved in these disputes. Or are you so anti union that you blindly refuse to admit that there is any merit in the dispute? Maybe it's not all political after all eh? I am very very pleased there seems to have been a resolution in the other dispute.
Last edited:
Southern is lost, but it’ll mainy depend on how the other DOO disputes currently involved in talks work out , if door duties are ultimately retained by conductors as part of the settlement on either GA or Merseyrail I’d predict we’re definitely in for a very prolonged battle in the remaining disputes with possibly ASLEF joining in at some point .
Last edited:
OxtedSignaller
Member
- Joined
- 31 Jul 2010
- Messages
- 372
Difference between Northern/Southern and Greater Anglia and Mersyrail is that DOO was mandated in the franchise agreeement. Merseyrail and Greater Anglia have chosen to do it, and as such they will make more money through the efficiencies achieved. If the Greater Anglia deal involves keeping the Guard but them not doing the doors then that would be a massive win for the RMT and a great compromise for both parties but who knows...
Agreed.
Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,691
Difficult to believe that, despite all the rants, over many years, on many threads, we are still pre-occupied with the issue of the DOORS!!!. No wonder that the media treat the whole matter with a certain amount of utter disinterest.
OK which DOO dispute has been resolved and how? I am not so dogmatic about guards that if we kept them and ended this dispute I would be equally happy. However I don't know of any dispute that has been resolved other than Scotland and DOO wasn't written into Scotrails contract. If you could provide an example of which dispute and how it was resolved that may help this argument and we may have a solution.
The agreement if accepted on GA is only really possible due to a significant amount of their network already operating over longstanding DOO cleared routes, where‘as northern and SWR have never operated over any such lines (Dorking -Leatherhead excepted) so will likley have to be prepared to accept at least some DOO routes in their own areas for a similar deal to be considered
Last edited:
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Isn't it a bit early to say that? They've proposed changing the role of a guard in a way that the RMT see as good enough to ask their members what they think of it. I wonder if the RMT would have put some of the previous Northern offers to the vote if it wasn't for the fact that they'll lose their right to vote on the old trade unions laws if they have another ballot.
At GTR/Southern the OBS grade is paid more than the guard grade - whether they were legacy or are new recruits.
Indeed, it's the old working class vote that Labour is now losing and extending the Conservatives' lead. Staunchly working class areas look at Corbyn and his band of middle-class former (allegedly) Marxists and Communists and see people who have no connection whatsoever with them, hence more are starting to favour the Conservatives.
On paper this is true.
But OBS do not get the 5% guards get for each ticket sold, & overtime & Sunday working are treated differently.
OBS are generally very happy with their treatment & conditions, which are excellent in relation to the outside working world. And they will earn more than guards who do no overtime & sit in the back cab without ticket issuing.
To be honest I'm one of those people. I used to vote labour but not any more. The train strikes exemplify why I dont support Corbyn and the Momentum lot. Simply because they strike for strikes sake. There is no evidence that these strikes are working yet they carry on for dogmatic reasons. Everyone loses out of it and nobody gains. It seems they adopt Bob Crows mantra "If you fight you dont always win but if you dont fight you always lose." However in this case they are fighting and losing. Now people on here may think I am RMT bashing but I will reiterate. If I am wrong any you can give me an example of how this action will work please feel free. I am not so dogmatic if we kept the guard I wouldnt have problem with it. I just think this Corbynite attitude of everyone out even though its not working doesnt wash. If having the guard was an option to end this dispute I would be happy with it but as I have said previously this would result in the breaking of the Northern contract with the government.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Lots of people fight everyday. However, most don't want to make their disputes public at the earliest possible opportunity.
I also get the impression trade unions (in general) demand something which they know will be rejected in the first instance e.g. demanding a 6% pay rise when they'll be happy with 4% in case the company decides to offer 4.5%. However, that works both ways so the initial offer from a company might be 3% instead of 4% because they expect the union to reject the first offer regardless of what it is.
Of course, only a cynic of the deepest dye would point out the strong correlation between growth of the Tory vote in working class seats and support for Brexit (and the continued strength of the Laboir vote in pro-remain working class seats), or suggest that this may be the result if the Tories' use of Brexit to distract the public from their own incompetence, or wonder what happens when they finally run out of excuses for the pig's ear they have made of the negotiations.
Similarly, only a cynic of the deepest dye would point out tue growing number of members of the aspiring middle class supporting Labour, almost as if they've realised that the Tories, eho are meant to protect theur interests, don't. Only an even more cynical person would point out that, with each passing election, the profile of Tory support moves further and further up the age pyramid.
Anyway, I'm dragging this topic into party political mudslinging, which I'm sure you'd never want to do in a million years.
Regardless if views on the merits of what the RMT are striking for, it amazes me that so many on here are questionning why they are striking. They are striking because it is the only weapon they believe they have at their disposal to keep their jobs ! I would ask whether posters on here wouldn't do the same, but given the large numbers of Christmas Party supporters among the turkey community I think I know what the answer would be.
The difference is it isnt like the miners strike you know. The miners quite rightly went on strike for their jobs and there was a chance, sadly it did not succeed where they would have protected their jobs. The reason I would be opposed to this strike if I was an RMT member is that its not working. Why do something where you lose money and upset passengers when there is no hope of success. Its the classic definition of stupidity. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. What they should be doing is working with Northern on this new role for the guards that is referenced. As the facts are that NO jobs are under threat.
Robertj21a
On Moderation
- Joined
- 22 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 7,691
I had always assumed that you went on strike for a cause, not a lost cause.
Exactly this is the point I have been making. It seems the RMT have the view that they should fight regardless. Even though in this case all its going to mean is a loss of money and upset passengers. DOO will happen regardless. They do not seem to understand the merits in accepting the promise of keeping jobs (which Northern have done) and, heaven forbid, working with Northern on the new role.
- Status