Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bromley boy]

It's completely in the power of the train operating company,

I think the point undermining the DOO disputes is that the government have made introduction of DOO a requirement of franchise agreements so the TOCs have been forced to implement it as a condition of taking on the franchise in the first place.

That may just be a position they have started to roll back from.

If so, that’s a good thing for everyone involved. The GTR mess has cost enormous amounts of money with little to show for it and northern would probably be even worse if it went the distance ...

 

[Wombat]

If so, that’s a good thing for everyone involved.

I'm not so sure about that. It's a good thing for passengers if a train can still run should the rostered second person be unavailable.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not so sure about that. It's a good thing for passengers if a train can still run should the rostered second person be unavailable.

True. Although it’s debatable how often that actually happens as very often during disruption the driver would also be unavailable so the service would be cancelled in any case. How common are driver vice guard cancellations? Good diagramming can do a lot to minimise the risk of this occurring.

It’s a case of balancing the occasional inconvenience when driver is available but there’s no guard, against the risk of losing the benefits of a second person on board in the majority of situations (which is the end product of DOOification).

*I do take the point that the Northern network may be more vulnerable than the southern network as it has a sparser service. In comparison there are few places in the former southern region with a once hourly service - the only one I can think of is the east coastway (aka sheep sh*t and shingle) line, although there may be others.

 

[Dentonian]

Only if there is a commitment by Northern to keep things as they are staffing wise, that is a safety critical second person on every train, but possibly transferring door opening control to the driver where possible.

Does that include allowing all staff with French or Croatian allegiences to take tomorrow off. Not my problem, as I don't use Rail at weekends, and indeed it might mean extra revenue for competing commercial (yes, even on Sun

 

[Carlisle]

True. Although it’s debatable how often that actually happens as very often during disruption the driver would also be unavailable so the service would be cancelled in any case. How common are driver vice guard cancellations? Good diagramming can do a lot to minimise the risk of this occurring.

It’s a case of balancing the occasional inconvenience when driver is available but there’s no guard, against the risk of losing the benefits of a second person on board in the majority of situations (which is the end product of DOOification).

*I do take the point that the Northern network may be more vulnerable than the southern network as it has a sparser service. In comparison there are few places in the former southern region with a once hourly service - the only one I can think of is the east coastway (aka sheep sh*t and shingle) line, although there may be others.

I take it as free marketeer you’d have no issue whatsoever if the services of your local shop, pub restaurant, petrol station, hospital, Docitors , schools or council are continuously disrupted by industrial action, in the same manner as you continuously support railway unions doing when they don’t get everything their own way .

 

[AlterEgo]

And women are also being attacked and raped on trains. Unfortunately true and I was shocked when I first heard of it. I've had people assaulted, robbed, abused and god knows what else on my trains. I also witnessed a child abduction.

We can all play the 'what if' game. It serves little purpose than to highlight our own bias as we create a specific scenario to shoehorn into.

The problem is that there is NO solution. Whichever method of working is in place there will always be a danger and risk to someone. Whether that's a disabled person being over-carried, vulnerable people left to fend for themselves or the detritus of human behavior, it will not be prevented.

Sounds like an argument for more police on board, or security guards in the passenger saloon, not a train guard who generally sits in the back cab.

 

[ComUtoR]

Sounds like an argument for more police on board, or security guards in the passenger saloon, not a train guard who generally sits in the back cab.

That's why we have REOs Their original remit was to look after the safety of the passengers and to provide a very visible presence on board.

 

[Moonshot]

I think the point undermining the DOO disputes is that the government have made introduction of DOO a requirement of franchise agreements so the TOCs have been forced to implement it as a condition of taking on the franchise in the first place.

That may just be a position they have started to roll back from.

If so, that’s a good thing for everyone involved. The GTR mess has cost enormous amounts of money with little to show for it and northern would probably be even worse if it went the distance ...

This is a very valid point, the actual staffing of a franchise should be 100% a decision left to the TOC, who are actually responsible for paying staff salaries.

 

[northwichcat]

Ultimately if employing 5% more people feeds through into increased fares but guarantees that all trains run and have two staff members on them, then it's a price I'm happy to pay. And some people won't be prepared to do so, that's fair enough.

You do realise crews can take ill or can sign off due to having an emergency to deal with? 100% guarantee of no services cancelled due to staff shortages would mean most days spare staff sitting around waiting for something to go wrong. For a 100% guarantee you'd probably need an approach similar to the fire service whereby there's on-call fire fighters living close to the fire station. If the spare guards are sitting in the same room as the other staff then they can pick up the same bug that's caused other staff to go off sick, while if they're acting as an AFC then they aren't available to take over from a guard who goes home ill, unless per chance it's the guard on the same train as them who takes ill.

 

[northwichcat]

This is a very valid point, the actual staffing of a franchise should be 100% a decision left to the TOC, who are actually responsible for paying staff salaries.

It's been claimed it's the fault of Arriva that DfT put salary caps in the franchise agreements from when ATN offered drivers a big pay rise to prevent them going on strike in the final year of the franchise, which left the Northern franchise to foot the bill.

 

[muz379]

I'm not so sure about that. It's a good thing for passengers if a train can still run should the rostered second person be unavailable.

That might be one benefit . But overall is it better for passengers if there is a wholesale move to cutting complements of staff in the second on board grade so that running without that second person becomes fairly routine ? Which is what has happened in various places when DOO has been implemented .

*I do take the point that the Northern network may be more vulnerable than the southern network as it has a sparser service. In comparison there are few places in the former southern region with a once hourly service - the only one I can think of is the east coastway (aka sheep sh*t and shingle) line, although there may be others.

Thats a valid point . But then because of the sparser service its much more routine for a service to be run late , even extremely late . Running half an hour late is not unheard of on lines with an hourly service . Whereas in places with a more intensive service there may have been 2 or 3 other trains running the same route in that time so the 30 min late train will either be cancelled , or run express .


As for the reason for the suspension of strikes and apparently new ground in talks . None of us here frankly know what the conversation has been in the background between Northern and the DFT . But if Northern are now discussing the possibility of something that would not be compliant with the franchise agreement then there must have been some conversation .

My personal view is that it is quite reasonable to suggest that the DFT have relaxed the requirement , there have been many other situations during this franchise when changes have had to be made to what is specified in the franchise agreement . Look at the May tt change falling short of expectation , and now the December 18 tt change is going to result in no major alterations . Currently there is a great deal of media attention in the shortcomings of the railwoCay . Perhaps the DFT is concerned that raising the profile of the dispute over guards on trains could go against them rather than the T . So has relaxed the requirement and intends to take up the fight another day when conditions are more favourable .

There is also the glaring reality that much of the route is currently not set up for DOO and making many of the stations compliant rests with network rail . Who are well behind schedule with the Bolton coridoor and who seem to run behind schedule with every major project . Making stations DOO compliant would be a major project .

 

[northwichcat]

Thats a valid point . But then because of the sparser service its much more routine for a service to be run late , even extremely late . Running half an hour late is not unheard of on lines with an hourly service . Whereas in places with a more intensive service there may have been 2 or 3 other trains running the same route in that time so the 30 min late train will either be cancelled , or run express .

It depends on a number of different things. On a line with an hourly service sometimes Northern run a service 45 minutes late calling at all scheduled stops - which can result in the next service finishing up just behind it by the time trains can get delayed further en route. Other times they cancel stops on a service no way near that late - crew hours or what the train is needed for next are often cited as the reasons for that.

It can also depend whether the service starts late or whether it gets delayed. On a line with a train every 30 minutes if a service leaves the origin station on time but gets 35 minutes behind schedule it can be terminated short, or have stops cancelled or the following service can end up being cancelled due to 'congestion on the line.'

There is also the glaring reality that much of the route is currently not set up for DOO and making many of the stations compliant rests with network rail . Who are well behind schedule with the Bolton coridoor and who seem to run behind schedule with every major project . Making stations DOO compliant would be a major project .

You do realise DOO compliant in 2018 means cameras on the train doors and a video feed in the cab, not the mirrors on the platform method used on some South East routes. Dft and the ROSCOs are requiring all new multiple units to be fitted with DOO cameras so that they are 'future proofed.'

 

[northwichcat]

And women are also being attacked and raped on trains. Unfortunately true and I was shocked when I first heard of it. I've had people assaulted, robbed, abused and god knows what else on my trains. I also witnessed a child abduction.

I heard a report just yesterday about a criminal gang targeting men for their watches. So how are they doing it - using knives, threatening victims etc.? No. It's women getting friendly with men who've been drinking who are taking the watches without the victim even noticing. While rape is a much more serious crime the most common type of rape is where the victim knows the perpetrator and might have been happily sitting talking to them five minutes before the offence occurs. Unfortunately, there's not much guards can do about betrayal of trust unless they are watching everyone all the time, which is impossible for them to do.

Whilst I am happy that progress seems to have been made in regards to this dispute I find it rather confusing why it's acceptable to talk without preconditions now but it wasn't last July when exactly the same thing was offered, unless the company have now been given the flexibility they didn't have last year possibly?

I don't think either side are talking without preconditions. The RMT won't accept a train running without a second member of safety trained staff and Northern won't accept the RMT refusing to give up door controls. Talking without preconditions would mean Northern would be willing to have guards both opening and closing the doors on all services and the RMT would be willing to accept trains with just a driver on board or the level of training provided to be changed.

 

[XDM]

Northern RMT members do not have anything to worry about if the Southern OBS solution is adopted.

In the last measuring period 98.5% of Southern train rostered an OBS ran with the OBS. A high figure.
But 1.5% of trains were able to run with just a very capable driver aboard.

Daily that is very approximately 3,000 children, women & men who were able to get home on time who would otherwise have been seriously delayed because an OBS had not turned up & their train would have had to run empty past them.

So this sort of deal is a win win for everybody.

And don't forget the passenger & the taxpayers, & the Southern seriously disabled who were no worse off when an OBS had a surprise away day. Not that many do.
They have turned out to be generally very conscientious & an asset to the industry.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That might be one benefit . But overall is it better for passengers if there is a wholesale move to cutting complements of staff in the second on board grade so that running without that second person becomes fairly routine ? Which is what has happened in various places when DOO has been implemented .

Thats a valid point . But then because of the sparser service its much more routine for a service to be run late , even extremely late . Running half an hour late is not unheard of on lines with an hourly service . Whereas in places with a more intensive service there may have been 2 or 3 other trains running the same route in that time so the 30 min late train will either be cancelled , or run express .

This seems to be a sarf-of-Landan practice, which also goes over onto Thameslink. But the long standing practice on the south WCML is barely ever to cancel or skip-stop anything, and to concentrate on running as much of the service as possible, however late it gets, in order to ensure peak capacity and comfort over punctuality. The mess can then be sorted out with a few cancellations between the peaks to get everything back where it's needed.

 

[muz379]

You do realise DOO compliant in 2018 means cameras on the train doors and a video feed in the cab, not the mirrors on the platform method used on some South East routes. Dft and the ROSCOs are requiring all new multiple units to be fitted with DOO cameras so that they are 'future proofed.'

I am aware of the type of equipment that is specified for modern Driver only operation .

However there are still requirements for station platforms , such as minimum lighting standards , risk assessments also identify things like obstacles on the platform which can obstruct views , gaps and steps down . Then there are the stations that will require signalling alterations to implement CD and RA indicators for dispatch use .

Then there are still many places with AB signalling in place which is also not part of the specification for modern driver only operation .

As I said there are many places on Northern routes which are nowhere near ready to be operated by trains under the sole control of a driver .

 

[Carlisle]

so that running without that second person becomes fairly routine ? Which is what has happened in various places when DOO has been implemented .
.

I can’t think of anywhere that’s actually happened unless your possibly referring to reduced staffing levels on Gatwick/Heathrow express services in comparison to when they were first launched.
Other routes converted to DOO whilst committing in most circumstances to retaining their on board presence, (SPT, Javelins and Southern) haven’t since changed their policy, whilst the ex BR (NSE) routes plus C2C and London Overground were all converted (with full agreement of unions at the time) without a regular onboard presence from the outset.
Also in my experience the vast majority of inter city operations that retain Buffet cars staff them for the whole route on pretty much all trains, despite never having been essential for the train to operate .

 

[6Gman]

Does that include allowing all staff with French or Croatian allegiences to take tomorrow off. Not my problem, as I don't use Rail at weekends, and indeed it might mean extra revenue for competing commercial (yes, even on Sun

I'm assuming this post was cut off in mid-sentence since otherwise it doesn't seem to make much sense.

 

[Dentonian]

I'm assuming this post was cut off in mid-sentence since otherwise it doesn't seem to make much sense.

Yes, still makes a change from me typing a much longer reply, and then getting it rejected because it didn't have "at least 5 characters"!

The sentence should have said competing commercial *bus* service (yes, even on a Sunday). As it happened I did use said service, albeit at the end of the route that doesn't run parallel to the train, and we did have a standing load this afternoon. Obviously, less bus passengers than train drivers were interested in France v Croatia!

 

[northwichcat]

I am aware of the type of equipment that is specified for modern Driver only operation .

However there are still requirements for station platforms , such as minimum lighting standards , risk assessments also identify things like obstacles on the platform which can obstruct views , gaps and steps down . Then there are the stations that will require signalling alterations to implement CD and RA indicators for dispatch use .

Then there are still many places with AB signalling in place which is also not part of the specification for modern driver only operation .

As I said there are many places on Northern routes which are nowhere near ready to be operated by trains under the sole control of a driver .

Northern have a requirement to make changes to lighting at certain stations themselves in their franchise agreement, mainly to change traditional lighting to LED lighting.

 

[Bromley boy]

I take it as free marketeer you’d have no issue whatsoever if the services of your local shop, pub restaurant, petrol station, hospital, Docitors , schools or council are continuously disrupted by industrial action, in the same manner as you continuously support railway unions doing when they don’t get everything their own way .

I’m not sure where you form the impression I’m a “free marketeer”. I’m in favoured of a mixed economy which uses both market forces and more “command economy” type features where appropriate.

If I’m not mistaken Doctors, nurses, firefighters, teachers, university lecturers and McDonald’s staff have all participated in industrial action in the recent past. I have no issue with any of them doing so, so long as due process has been followed.

Keep in mind the U.K. already has some of the toughest laws regarding strike action in Europe.

 

[northwichcat]

Keep in mind the U.K. already has some of the toughest laws regarding strike action in Europe.

Yet unlike other countries in Europe we don't have protected public transport services which must operate even during industrial action.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yet unlike other countries in Europe we don't have protected public transport services which must operate even during industrial action.

So what?

If doctors, nurses and firefighters can go on strike why on earth should rail staff be prevented from doing so? Are you suggesting the railway is a more essential service than firefighting or hospital treatment?

Which countries in Europe would those be?

I was on a flight which was vectored around French airspace recently due to an ATC strike, and heavily delayed.

It seems French railstaff are also entitled to walk out:

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...alkout-transport-workers-latest-a8385436.html

French rail staff are due to walk out for their next 48-hour stoppage on Thursday and Friday. During recent strikes as many as 80 per cent of TGV high-speed trains have run, but on conventional inter-city routes and some suburban lines most services have been cancelled.

 

[northwichcat]

So what?

If doctors, nurses and firefighters can go on strike why on earth should rail staff be prevented from doing so? Are you suggesting the railway is a more essential service than firefighting or hospital treatment?

Which countries in Europe would those be?

I was on a flight which was vectored around French airspace recently due to an ATC strike, and heavily delayed.

It seems French railstaff are also entitled to walk out:

https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...alkout-transport-workers-latest-a8385436.html

I didn't say rail staff are prevented from walking out, I said certain services have to run so the unions in those countries have to work around that. They can have a strike but not all employees walking out on the same day at the same time.

In Italy

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT TRAIN STRIKES IN ITALY

Is my train service guaranteed?
If your train is providing local transport during essential services for the peak times (from 06:00 to 09:00 and from 18:00 to 21:00 Mon-Sat) these will be guaranteed. Some long-distance trains are also guaranteed on all days, including holidays.

What does 'essential services' mean?
Essential services means that Trenitalia has guaranteed transport, but this may not be on the same train type originally booked or at the same time that you originally booked. It just means we will get you there as soon as possible.

https://www.italiarail.com/strike-information

 

[Bromley boy]

I didn't say rail staff are prevented from walking out, I said certain services have to run so the unions in those countries have to work around that. They can have a strike but not all employees walking out on the same day at the same time.

In Italy



https://www.italiarail.com/strike-information

Sounds pretty meaningless in Italy “get you there a soon as possible”, and clearly isn’t the case in France.

I’m not sure how any of this is relevant to my point that the U.K. has some of the most stringent legal requirements for industrial action to take place in Europe, which apply across the board;

Doctors, nurses and other “essential services” are also entitled to go on strike. Presumably you agree that, if any services will be protected from strikes, these should be before transport?

Or are you saying you’d like to live in a world where strikes are banned totally??

Your anti-union stance, and irrational bias against rail unions in particular, reveals itself once again.

 

[northwichcat]

Sounds pretty meaningless in Italy “get you there a soon as possible”, and clearly isn’t the case in France.

I’m not sure how any of this is relevant to my point that the U.K. has some of the most stringent legal requirements for industrial action to take place in Europe;

Doctors, nurses and other “essential services” are also entitled to go on strike. Presumably you agree that if any services will be protected from strikes, these should be before transport?

Or are you saying you’d like to live in a world where strikes are banned totally??

Your anti-union stance reveals itself once again.

Why do I bother responding to your posts. Yet again you're reading what you want to read, not what is written in black and white in front of you.

Do hospitals close down completely with patients thrown out on the street if the nurse's union calls a strike? No.
Are prisoners released if prison guards go on strike? No.
Do children get left on the streets if teachers go on strike? No.
Do firemen walk up and down waving banners while watching a building burn down? No.
Could members of the public be left unable to get to work or an essential appointment due to a transport strike? Yes.

An Italian style system would sort out that inconsistency. Don't forget it was you who suggested we have the toughest strike laws in Europe and now you don't like the fact I've highlighted you have a lot more freedom than Italian transport workers with regards to industrial action. From all your anti-EU posts you should know that there are lots of European countries and having stricter strike laws than France does not qualify your claim of Britain 'having some of the toughest laws regarding strike action in Europe.'

 

[Bromley boy]

Do hospitals close down completely with patients thrown out on the street if the nurse's union calls a strike? No.
Are prisoners released if prison guards go on strike? No.
Do children get left on the streets if teachers go on strike? No.
Do firemen walk up and down waving banners while watching a building burn down? No.
Could members of the public be left unable to get to work or an essential appointment due to a transport strike? Yes.

And do railstrikes always mean absolutely no trains run? No.

So, in other words, you’re happy for cancer operations to be delayed due to medical strikes, but want to prevent railstrikes which might regrettably mean a patient has to make alternative arrangements to get to hospital.

That is absolutely ludicrous viewpoint, which perfectly demonstrates the bizarre irrationality of your approach, as does the below.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-32870930

Some European countries don't require unions to hold a strike ballot to call industrial action. Of those that do, few specify a turnout threshold. Most require a simple majority to back strike action.

In Germany, the majority needs to be above 75%, says Guglielmo Meardi, professor of industrial relations at Warwick Business School. But, in common with some other European nations, ballots are held in workplaces rather than by post, which tends to mean higher turnouts.

In any case, there are more "channels of communication" through which an agreement can be made before a strike is deemed necessary.

In countries such as France and Germany unions are more involved in decisions. The use of work councils, where both unions and employers are represented, means workers tend to have more of a say in negotiating pay and working conditions. This means that the industrial relations climate tends to be less confrontational. But major strikes - like the current dispute by German pilots - are not uncommon.

Feel free not to respond if you’d rather not.

 

[northwichcat]

^ You do realise industrial action without any union involvement whatsoever is permitted in the UK, it's just not very common. Is that permitted in Germany?

While most train operators run some services on strike days they can pick and choose services based on which will be easiest to staff, not according to a list of the most needed services. That's the tail wagging the dog.

You're really getting more and more desperate to try and brand me as enemy of the train crews. I never suggested cancer patients not getting treatment isn't an issue but do you have any evidence of it happening? I lost two relatives to cancer in 2014 and have a third living with cancer know and I'm not aware of any of them not getting treatment or getting treatment delayed due to NHS strikes.

 

[Bromley boy]

^ You do realise industrial action without any union involvement whatsoever is permitted in the UK, it's just not very common. Is that permitted in Germany?

While most train operators run some services on strike days they can pick and choose services based on which will be easiest to staff, not according to a list of the most needed services. That's the tail wagging the dog.

The tail wagging the dog is that when staff (the dog) are ridden roughshod over by the tail (the employer) attempting to wag them, their final recourse is to withdraw their labour.

The right to strike is enshrined in Article 28 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of your beloved EU, by the way. Shouldn’t you know that?

You're really getting more and more desperate to try and brand me as enemy of the train crews. I never suggested cancer patients not getting treatment isn't an issue but do you have any evidence of it happening? I lost two relatives to cancer in 2014 and have a third living with cancer know and I'm not aware of any of them not getting treatment or getting treatment delayed due to NHS strikes.

I’ve merely pointed out your irrationality. It’s patently ridiculous to suggest that rail strikes should be banned on the basis they make it more difficult for patients to reach hospital appointments, yet have no objection to strikes at the hospital preventing the operations in the first place!

As for evidence (as if it’s needed):

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ations-cancelled-as-doctors-prepare-to-strike

A Department of Health spokeswoman said: “Patients have so far seen more than 19,000 operations cancelled as a result of the BMA’s irresponsible and unjustified industrial action.

(You have my sympathies re. relatives with cancer, I’ve lost some of my own, sadly. It’s a pernicious disease).

 

[scrapy]

Talks restarted yesterday and have reportedly been productive. Any agreement/solution to the dispute however expected to be weeks if not months off.