Arriva Rail North DOO

[PR1Berske]

"RMT confirms a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North in guards' safety dispute.

RAIL UNION RMT has confirmed that a further two days of strike action on Arriva Rail North will go ahead on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October as the company continues to resist all efforts to make progress in the long-running dispute over rail safety and the head-long dash towards Driver Only Operation.

Members will strike between 0001 hours and 2359 hours on Tuesday 3rd October and Thursday 5th October."

Extracted from:
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-confirms-two-days-of-strike-action-on-arriva-rail-north1909/

Change of tactics?

That's from 2017.

 

[woodmally]

So it's only the company that is intransigent.........??

I have repeatedly said they cannot get agreement so I dont really see the point of talks so not surprised by the outcome. I dont see why they dispense with talks and just carry on absorbing the strike action till DOO is implemented.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have repeatedly said they cannot get agreement so I dont really see the point of talks so not surprised by the outcome. I dont see why they dispense with talks and just carry on absorbing the strike action till DOO is implemented.

The problem is that unlike Southern it's not easy just to blanket implement across their network.

They must be getting tempted, though...

 

[Moonshot]

Anyone making plans to visit Xmas markets on a Saturday would be advised to check alternative transport options, as it is highly likely we won't be working Saturdays till further notice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone making plans to visit Xmas markets on a Saturday would be advised to check alternative transport options, as it is highly likely we won't be working Saturdays till further notice.

Isn't there a statutory limit on the length of a strike on one issue before the company can sack people? Wasn't that what happened to the dockers?

 

[Moonshot]

Isn't there a statutory limit on the length of a strike on one issue before the company can sack people? Wasn't that what happened to the dockers?

Not sure , but there are a significant number of variables to consider anyway before that happens. RMT would lose a lot of subs for a start

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure , but there are a significant number of variables to consider anyway before that happens. RMT would lose a lot of subs for a start

True. I think the "nuclear option" is less likely than for Merseyrail, which genuinely could consider sacking all the guards and suspending service for a period of time until all the Stadler units were in place. OTOH, it sounds like Merseyrail are close to an OBS style deal which would be funded by a combination of fare rises and ticket office closures/hours restrictions.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Anyone making plans to visit Xmas markets on a Saturday would be advised to check alternative transport options, as it is highly likely we won't be working Saturdays till further notice.

Oh wonderful. Is it now RMT policy to loose Brownie points with everyone?

 

[CN75]

Our Ref: BR2/0146

20th September 2018

Dear Colleague,

ROLE OF THE GUARD & EXTENSION OF DOO – ARRIVA RAIL NORTH

Firstly, on behalf of the union I would like to congratulate you and your colleagues for your tremendous solidarity and resolve during this dispute.

As you are aware, the union went into talks with Arriva Rail North to try and find a resolution to this dispute. Unfortunately, rather than entering into the talks with an open mind, the company did their upmost to hinder any discussions on resolving this dispute and ultimately collapsed talks at ACAS. The company showed a complete disregard for any compromise and refused to move from their position of a 100% Driver Only Operation across their network. This is despite the best efforts of the union’s negotiating team, who have moved considerably to offer not just conventional working (Conductor with full door operational control) but also intermediate working (Driver with control of the door release once it is safely stationary and the Guard carrying out safety checks for train dispatch, with the facility to re-energise the doors) as agreeable options.

It is clear that once again the company will only discuss retaining a second person if the operational requirement of the doors is passed to the driver. This position goes completely against union policy and the guard guarantee. Arriva Rail North has entered into these talks without any genuine commitment to resolving this dispute, despite their attempts at asking us to call off industrial action to agree on a position that is totally unacceptable. This is compounded by the fact that the company would have to approach the DfT to seek an alteration to their agreed contract.

To make matters worse, the company has once again shown this union utter contempt. Whilst your negotiating team has behaved in a professional and respectable manner, the company’s management and negotiating team have acted abhorrently. During the two days of discussions the company’s negotiating team could not even be bothered to meet our representatives on the second day, which only highlights their clear lack of commitment in resolving this dispute.

The National Executive Committee has considered this matter and believes that there is no other option than to call further industrial action. Therefore, all of our Arriva Rail North Conductor, Conductor Instructors and Train Drivers are instructed not to book on for any shifts that commence between:-

• 0001 Hours and 2359 Hours on Saturday 6th October 2018
• 0001 Hours and 2359 Hours on Saturday 13th October 2018
• 0001 Hours and 2359 Hours on Saturday 20th October 2018

Furthermore, the NEC has instructed me to utilise all possible resources at our disposal, such as RMT TV. As always, the union are readily available for meaningful discussions to discuss this dispute and are ready to talk with either Arriva Rail North or the DfT or both. The union wants this dispute resolved with a Guard guaranteed, with full safety competencies and a safe and secure railway for everyone.

I urge you all to continue with your unbelievable support and solidarity. The company will continue with their tactics of trying to divide the workforce and each time management have tried to do this they have failed. We remain 100% committed and determined in our fight and I know you and your colleagues will continue with your tremendous unity. Our principled stance has not gone unnoticed and the public are fully behind our campaign whilst also seeing through managements petulant tactics.

I once again thank you all for your determination throughout this dispute. Together we can ensure that a second safety critical member of staff remains on all ARN services.

SUPPORT YOUR UNION!
SUPPORT THE ACTION!
NO TO DOO!!

Yours sincerely

Mick Cash
General Secretary

 

[CN75]

It’s quite simple. Arriva have a contract to introduce ‘real’ DOO on some of their network. The DfT will provide compensation for any losses from any industrial action whilst Arriva attempt to do this. The RMT’s members bulletins appear not to understand that there is no negotiation to be done around a guard on every train. There’s doubtless a hope ASLEF will come charging over the hill, but that won’t turn out the way the guards dream. Negotiation on all the things that matter about jobs and pay are there for the taking, but the RMT want to pursue a kamikaze approach which means they won’t be around when the settlement deal takes place.

 

[Overspeed110]

It’s quite simple. Arriva have a contract to introduce ‘real’ DOO on some of their network. The DfT will provide compensation for any losses from any industrial action whilst Arriva attempt to do this. The RMT’s members bulletins appear not to understand that there is no negotiation to be done around a guard on every train. There’s doubtless a hope ASLEF will come charging over the hill, but that won’t turn out the way the guards dream. Negotiation on all the things that matter about jobs and pay are there for the taking, but the RMT want to pursue a kamikaze approach which means they won’t be around when the settlement deal takes place.

The contract can be varied by agreement between northern and our pathetic government, this is laid out in the franchise agreement. Both sides will obviously have to give a little.

Do not think ASLEF will have no part to play in this.

 

[Overspeed110]

Isn't there a statutory limit on the length of a strike on one issue before the company can sack people? Wasn't that what happened to the dockers?

I'm sure you'll be very pleased to know that Northern can sack all the striking RMT members now if they want, they were only protected during the initial 12 weeks of the strikes starting.

But unfortunately for you and a handful of others on here, it ain't going to happen.

 

[LOL The Irony]

But unfortunately for you and a handful of others on here, it ain't going to happen.

How do you know? They could be planning to sack a few Guards at this very moment for all we know.

 

[Moonshot]

How do you know? They could be planning to sack a few Guards at this very moment for all we know.

What for? There are several years of class 150/156 etc operations stil ahead of us.....if DOO was hypothetically introduced tomorrow, that would mean the driver getting out of his seat and going into the back saloon to energise the DKS and perform current checks etc. That would be totally unacceptable. Clearly we are absolutely miles away from that, and in any event , the franchise committment is for 50% of mileage.

 

[Overspeed110]

How do you know? They could be planning to sack a few Guards at this very moment for all we know.

So you think they can cherry pick a few guards / drivers and just sack them, but not the rest?

 

[Moonshot]

So you think they can cherry pick a few guards / drivers and just sack them, but not the rest?

I ll agree....that is not going to happen

 

[LOL The Irony]

So you think they can cherry pick a few guards / drivers and just sack them, but not the rest?

You never know. If I was at an impasse with my employees due to something "beyond my control", I would do something along those lines.

 

[Robertj21a]

The contract can be varied by agreement between northern and our pathetic government, this is laid out in the franchise agreement. Both sides will obviously have to give a little.

Do not think ASLEF will have no part to play in this.

Why do both sides have to give a little ?

The management, and the government, want a proportion of trains to run DOO. It's about time that the RMT woke up to reality.

 

[Moonshot]

You never know. If I was at an impasse with my employees due to something "beyond my control", I would do something along those lines.

Maybe an alternative way of looking at that is to introduce a new grade of OBS , and let the guards role run down naturally over time. That is me taking a totally objective view of it.

 

[Overspeed110]

What for? There are several years of class 150/156 etc operations stil ahead of us.....if DOO was hypothetically introduced tomorrow, that would mean the driver getting out of his seat and going into the back saloon to energise the DKS and perform current checks etc. That would be totally unacceptable. Clearly we are absolutely miles away from that, and in any event , the franchise committment is for 50% of mileage.

However well informed you so obviously are, where do you get this 50% from?

The franchise agreement I've seen gives 3 (redacted) dates by which 3 (redacted) percentages of services must be DOO.

No one on here knows what those dates or percentages of affected services are. So this 50% may be a starting or an end point. I suspect the latter.

 

[DaveB10780]

I urge you all to continue with your unbelievable support and solidarity. The company will continue with their tactics of trying to divide the workforce and each time management have tried to do this they have failed. We remain 100% committed and determined in our fight and I know you and your colleagues will continue with your tremendous unity. Our principled stance has not gone unnoticed and the public are fully behind our campaign whilst also seeing through managements petulant tactics.

No we are not, everyone in our house is happy with a guard on the train but not the internal arguments about who operates and when. We wish to travel by train and you are completely obstructive as far as we are concerned.

 

[Moonshot]

However well informed you so obviously are, where do you get this 50% from?

The franchise agreement I've seen gives 3 (redacted) dates by which 3 (redacted) percentages of services must be DOO.

No one on here knows what those dates or percentages of affected services are. So this 50% may be a starting or an end point. I suspect the latter.

Same place you got it.

 

[Overspeed110]

Why do both sides have to give a little ?

The management, and the government, want a proportion of trains to run DOO. It's about time that the RMT woke up to reality.

Why do both sides have to give a little ?

The management, and the government, want a proportion of trains to run DOO. It's about time that the RMT woke up to reality.

It's about time the "government" and Northerns infantile management woke up to reality

 

[Carlisle]

Maybe an alternative way of looking at that is to introduce a new grade of OBS , and let the guards role run down naturally over time. That is me taking a totally objective view of it.

I’d be surprised if almost any of striking guards themselves genuinely believed a deal was actually possible during the recent talks considering they’d withdrawn the offer of driver door control and were now demanding full control of door closure

 

[Robertj21a]

The management and the government want that.


It's about time the "government" and Northerns infantile management woke up to reality

??? Why ??. They have stated a requirement and the management have a contract to deliver - that's what management does. Just because a Trade Union doesn't like the idea doesn't change the requirement.

 

[Moonshot]

I’d be surprised if almost any of striking guards themselves genuinely believed a deal was possible considering they’d withdrawn the offer of driver door control and were now demanding full control of door closure

In effect the RMT have given away their negotiating position, and those ( no disrespect to anyone on here ) who actually understand that will realise that is a big NO NO in negotiations. As far as I m concerned, this action was called way too early and it should have waited until more of the proposed flesh was on the bones so to speak. Its worth noting that ASLEF acceptance of the proposals ( for extra shekels of course ) will nullify the strike action effect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d be surprised if almost any of striking guards themselves genuinely believed a deal was actually possible during the recent talks considering they’d withdrawn the offer of driver door control and were now demanding full control of door closure

As in that they won't even compromise to driver release, guard close?

If not, I am on Arriva's side. Driver open, guard close is the most sensible option for Northern's services and will both make revenue protection easier and more effective, and speed up services no longer delayed by guards fighting their way to the doors having completed a transaction.

 

[Moonshot]

As in that they won't even compromise to driver release, guard close?

If not, I am on Arriva's side. Driver open, guard close is the most sensible option for Northern's services and will both make revenue protection easier and more effective, and speed up services no longer delayed by guards fighting their way to the doors having completed a transaction.

I d agree with that. But even if that was to be agreed tomorrow, it would take a long time for the fleet to be retrofitted etc.....

 

[Carlisle]

As in that they won't even compromise to driver release, guard close?
.

The RMT have been very well aware since the start of this dispute (and realistically probably for much longer) that driver release, guard close wouldn’t be deemed an acceptable long term agreement for the brand new stock , but as has been pointed out, older units could be retrofitted to operate that way.

 

[pemma]

RMT have now announced Saturday strikes in October. The guards must have lots of disposable income to be able to take so many days off work unpaid in such a short period.