Arriva Rail North DOO

[northwichcat]

The BBC has wrongly reported that ASLEF are also in dispute with all 3 of Southern, Northern and Merseyrail and that widespread job losses are set to occur at all 3 TOCs. The RMT is winning in it's plan to mislead the media and public in to believing all the DOO disputes are exactly the same. They just need to paint their misleading claims on the side of a big red bus now.

 

[Moonshot]

The BBC has wrongly reported that ASLEF are also in dispute with all 3 of Southern, Northern and Merseyrail and that widespread job losses are set to occur at all 3 TOCs. The RMT is winning in it's plan to mislead the media and public in to believing all the DOO disputes are exactly the same. They just need to paint their misleading claims on the side of a big red bus now.

I can safely say that a lot of Northern Guards are becoming dissillusioned with the RMT .....myself included.

 

[scrapy]

A couple of trains between Wigan and Victoria cancelled this morning due to 'an operating incident'. A manager /office staff member acting as a guard gave driver ready to start signal against a red signal at Wigan Wallgate. They claimed in report that they were unaware there was a signal or off indicator on the platform and gave the signal because the train was due out. Says a lot about Northern's claims that these 'conductors' are fully trained and that passenger safety is not at risk.

 

[Moonshot]

A couple of trains between Wigan and Victoria cancelled this morning due to 'an operating incident'. A manager /office staff member acting as a guard gave driver ready to start signal against a red signal at Wigan Wallgate. They claimed in report that they were unaware there was a signal or off indicator on the platform and gave the signal because the train was due out.

I ve actually done that myself in the past......luckily the driver didnt take it.

 

[northwichcat]

So did the driver go past the red signal? If not why the cancellations if the driver prevented any danger? If the driver did doesn't that nullify the argument that there can't be miscommunication between a guard and a driver which people were making after the rail board gave preventing miscommunication as a DOO advantage.

 

[Starmill]

Non commercial guards don't need to leave the back cab.

Even for you, this is unbelievable nonsense.

 

[scrapy]

So did the driver go past the red signal? If not why the cancellations if the driver prevented any danger? If the driver did doesn't that nullify the argument that there can't be miscommunication between a guard and a driver which people were making after the rail board gave preventing miscommunication as a DOO advantage.

No the driver didn't move. They both had to be taken off the train for report writing/medi screening. Obviously there were no guards sat spare to run the train. This probably needed another manager to deal with so may have resulted in disruption elsewhere.

 

[CC 72100]

Says a lot about Northern's claims that these 'conductors' are fully trained and that passenger safety is not at risk.

Has no Conductor never given 2 against a red then?

If not why the cancellations if the driver prevented any danger?

If an individual who is acting in the capacity of a Guard (be them a normal Conductor, a Guard manager, or a trained up for strike manager) will be removed from duty (and probably given a drugs and alcohol test) if they have given 2 against a red if the situation is as scrapy has described. Standard process and the incident *should* be managed the same way regardless of who it was involved. Certainly if there have been cancellations then it looks like the initial handling of the incident has been as if it were a normal Conductor.

 

[LowLevel]

It seems like every time there's industrial action regardless of the company this stuff happens though. The ORR should be making some points. I know for a fact 'contingency' guards receive less training than regular guards and this should not be allowed. It should be full training, familiarisation and mentoring periods and full route learning time or nothing at all. If that's not economically viable tough.

 

[craigybagel]

Has no Conductor never given 2 against a red then?

That's one (still very serious) thing, but it's a much worse situation if, as is claimed, it's because "they were unaware there was a signal or off indicator on the platform and gave the signal because the train was due out" - that is a very serious failing of route knowledge and is very worrying.

 

[northwichcat]

No the driver didn't move. They both had to be taken off the train for report writing/medi screening. Obviously there were no guards sat spare to run the train. This probably needed another manager to deal with so may have resulted in disruption elsewhere.

Didn't realise the report had to be done immediately opposed to once the crew return to their base.

The 09:46 Altrincham to Chester was cancelled so I don't know if the stand-in guard might have been the relevant manager. The train ran ECS to Greenbank and then worked part of the return working, so it sounds like it went to Greenbank with just the driver on board.

 

[philthetube]

A couple of trains between Wigan and Victoria cancelled this morning due to 'an operating incident'. A manager /office staff member acting as a guard gave driver ready to start signal against a red signal at Wigan Wallgate. They claimed in report that they were unaware there was a signal or off indicator on the platform and gave the signal because the train was due out. Says a lot about Northern's claims that these 'conductors' are fully trained and that passenger safety is not at risk.

This proves to the driver that the acting guard is not competent, no way could that train continue in service. Whoever signed him/her off could be in the soft stuff as well.

 

[Moonshot]

This proves to the driver that the acting guard is not competent, no way could that train continue in service. Whoever signed him/her off could be in the soft stuff as well.

What about the normal guards like me who do that in a normal course of duty? I have done that myself.

 

[craigybagel]

What about the normal guards like me who do that in a normal course of duty? I have done that myself.

Did you buzz two against a red because you didn't know there was a signal at the station in question?

 

[Andyh82]

The BBC has wrongly reported that ASLEF are also in dispute with all 3 of Southern, Northern and Merseyrail and that widespread job losses are set to occur at all 3 TOCs. The RMT is winning in it's plan to mislead the media and public in to believing all the DOO disputes are exactly the same. They just need to paint their misleading claims on the side of a big red bus now.

The item on Calendar last night was all about the driver being the only member of staff on board. Passengers interviewed had issues about disabled people being unable to board and everyone travelling for free if nobody was checking tickets.

 

[Moonshot]

Did you buzz two against a red because you didn't know there was a signal at the station in question?

No ....I simply made a mistake and forgot, its a human failing

 

[CC 72100]

That's one (still very serious) thing, but it's a much worse situation if, as is claimed, it's because "they were unaware there was a signal or off indicator on the platform and gave the signal because the train was due out" - that is a very serious failing of route knowledge and is very worrying.

Agreed on that aspect - if it comes out that this is the reason why 2 on the buzzer was given. It was the wording that made it sound like only these guys make this sort of error that was untrue.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

A couple of trains between Wigan and Victoria cancelled this morning due to 'an operating incident'. A manager /office staff member acting as a guard gave driver ready to start signal against a red signal at Wigan Wallgate. They claimed in report that they were unaware there was a signal or off indicator on the platform and gave the signal because the train was due out. Says a lot about Northern's claims that these 'conductors' are fully trained and that passenger safety is not at risk.

It is a little concerning that information in a confidential report is openly posted on this forum. That information should remain private until the investigation is finished and any remedial actions completed.

Heaven knows what the RMT would say if we started poting uninvestigated reports from their members.

 

[craigybagel]

No ....I simply made a mistake and forgot, its a human failing

You forgot there was a signal at the location? That's a very big mistake to make. I hope you asked for a route refresh since your route knowledge is clearly not up to scratch? The fact you don't seem to see the problem here makes me suspect (and indeed hope) that you're not actually a guard.....

 

[scrapy]

You forgot there was a signal at the location? That's a very big mistake to make. I hope you asked for a route refresh since your route knowledge is clearly not up to scratch? The fact you don't seem to see the problem here makes me suspect (and indeed hope) that you're not actually a guard.....

Me to

Giving a ready to start signal against a red is as serious as a driver having a spad (at least it was when Serco Abellio ran Northern.

It does happen humans make mistakes. If moonshot did do it I assume the correct reporting procedures were followed. What is worrying is it happens very rarely but has happened on only the fourth day of industrial action with the person who did it apparently unaware of the route they supposedly signed

 

[northwichcat]

It is a little concerning that information in a confidential report is openly posted on this forum. That information should remain private until the investigation is finished and any remedial actions completed.

Heaven knows what the RMT would say if we started poting uninvestigated reports from their members.

I imagine if it was a guard who made the mistake and any information was posted on a public forum, people would be demanding for it to be removed or at least what service the incident happened on to not be mentioned?

What is in place to prevent the train preceding if a guard gives two buzzers without checking the signal if it's green? If that's untraceable why all the red tape when the signal is on red and the driver waits until it goes green?

 

[northwichcat]

Me to

Giving a ready to start signal against a red is as serious as a driver having a spad (at least it was when Serco Abellio ran Northern.

It does happen humans make mistakes. If moonshot did do it I assume the correct reporting procedures were followed. What is worrying is it happens very rarely but has happened on only the fourth day of industrial action with the person who did it apparently unaware of the route they supposedly signed

From his previous posts on here moonshot wasn't a guard when he first joined Rail Forums but has mentioned being a Victoria guard for the past couple of years. I'd guess from what he posts and the way he says it that he isn't a RMT member and that he doesn't believe in one job for life like some railway staff do.

 

[Red18]

What is in place to prevent the train preceding if a guard gives two buzzers without checking the signal if it's green? If that's untraceable why all the red tape when the signal is on red and the driver waits until it goes green?

Are you suggesting that the Driver and Guard just keep quiet and don't report it at all?
That's a very slippery slope to go down.

 

[philthetube]

What about the normal guards like me who do that in a normal course of duty? I have done that myself.

you claimed that you did not know there was a signal or an off indicator at a station???????????? I am surprised you admit that on a forum

I am sure we have all made mistakes, (I certainly have), and I suspect that in all probability, had this been a regular guard who Buzzed the train away nothing would have been said apart from some mickey taking from the driver.

 

[philthetube]

Are you suggesting that the Driver and Guard just keep quiet and don't report it at all?
That's a very slippery slope to go down.

In this circumstance I would not be surprised if this is rarely reported.

Going back 20 years on the underground, and I know it was a different world then, a driver would never have dreamt of reporting a guard for that unless a spad occurred because of it, in which case there would be no choice.

 

[northwichcat]

Are you suggesting that the Driver and Guard just keep quiet and don't report it at all?
That's a very slippery slope to go down.

You're missing the point - if the signal is green how can the driver be sure whether the guard checked it or not? Yet if the guard doesn't check the signal surely it's a safety breach whatever the signal shows, not just if it's red and the driver refuses to move off and reports the incident. If the guard not checking the signal when it's green isn't a safety breach but the service has to be cancelled if the guard gives two buzzers and the driver ignores them then the rules make no sense.

 

[CC 72100]

You're missing the point - if the signal is green how can the driver be sure whether the guard checked it or not? Yet if the guard doesn't check the signal surely it's a safety breach whatever the signal shows, not just if it's red and the driver refuses to move off and reports the incident. If the guard not checking the signal when it's green isn't a safety breach but the service has to be cancelled if the guard gives two buzzers and the driver ignores them then the rules make no sense.

The driver can I suppose never be 100% sure that the person ahead of them in the chain (the guard) has done their job 100% correctly.

I don't think you quite appreciate the rules surrounding dispatch, signal aspects and crew communication and the seriousness of this.

If you think that a Guard giving 2 on the buzzer is a non-issue because the driver was vigilant and did not act upon them then you are very much wrong.

Giving 2 against a red is an operational incident and is defined, managed and reported as such. The outcome (ie. what did the driver do next?) does not have an impact in downgrading or overlooking the issue.

It cannot be looked over just because 'this time' it did not cause a SPAD. That would be like glossing over all TPWS incidents for the same reason, or ignoring the release of doors not on the platform because this time nobody fell out.

 

[scrapy]

I imagine if it was a guard who made the mistake and any information was posted on a public forum, people would be demanding for it to be removed or at least what service the incident happened on to not be mentioned?

What is in place to prevent the train preceding if a guard gives two buzzers without checking the signal if it's green? If that's untraceable why all the red tape when the signal is on red and the driver waits until it goes green?

For a start there is the on train data recorder which will show will show the driver either giving two buzzes back to the guard and taking power or giving one buzz tithe guard and not moving as happened here. Years ago things like this went unreported but since data recorders and cctv were introduced I'd say 100% of these incidents are now reported. At the end of the day the guard/manager could have cost the driver their job. They won't be happy about that and not reporting it can have serious consequences.

Northern are fully aware about the incident and I have not posted any details about what services are involved but can provide these details to moderators privately to prove authenticity.

Just to add the Chester to Altrincham services were due to be manned by Arriva Wales managers so no idea why cancelled but not related to this incident.

 

[Trackman]

I imagine if it was a guard who made the mistake and any information was posted on a public forum, people would be demanding for it to be removed or at least what service the incident happened on to not be mentioned?

What is in place to prevent the train preceding if a guard gives two buzzers without checking the signal if it's green? If that's untraceable why all the red tape when the signal is on red and the driver waits until it goes green?

The driver will/should have the DRA on.

 

[scrapy]

The driver will/should have the DRA on.

According to his report he did.