Arriva Rail North DOO

[Moonshot]

At stations that have the staff to do it, yeah, there's a possibility that the train crew won't need to help, but what about where there isn't? Do the revenue staff stop selling or checking tickets to help out? What happens where the station is unmanned?



Whilst a pound shop might think that way, and it might be logical, I don't think the railway is in the same league, even if you use the, probably too low, 'official' figures.



Whilst I agree with a lot of the rest of your post I must pick this up. One of the supposed guarantees was a basic pay rise in line with other employees. This, however, will just be on the basic pay and, in all likelihood, sales commission and extras will probably disappear, overtime might even change to 'time served' rather than any sort of enhanced rate, Sundays being part of the working week could be put in if it isn't there already, etc, etc.



I believe the franchise stipulates a minimum (mileage) of DCO rather than the other way round, so in all likelihood, that's less than 50% of non-DCO.

Thats what happens now. To put into context though, I probably get the ramp out about once every 2 weeks when I m working a train. There was an instant a few month back when 2 wheelchair pax turned at at an unmanned station at either end of a 4 car unit.......to save a bit of time the driver got out and loaded one,

 

[northwichcat]

At stations that have the staff to do it, yeah, there's a possibility that the train crew won't need to help, but what about where there isn't? Do the revenue staff stop selling or checking tickets to help out? What happens where the station is unmanned?

You were saying if the second member of staff is going to check for passengers needing assistance they might as well close the doors as well, so I was making the point that perhaps they won't be required to provide assistance at all stations the train stops at. In which case wouldn't the second member of staff doing the staff doors at some stations but not others create a complication?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You were saying if the second member of staff is going to check for passengers needing assistance they might as well close the doors as well, so I was making the point that perhaps they won't be required to provide assistance at all stations the train stops at. ...

They won't know unless they have a look. Moonshot actually has a good example of that in regards of two people needing assistance. Northern are always asking staff to try to minimise delays as much as possible.

...In which case wouldn't the second member of staff doing the staff at some stations but not others create a complication?

You mean like what happens currently?

 

[northwichcat]

They won't know unless they have a look. Moonshot actually has a good example of that in regards of two people needing assistance. Northern are always asking staff to try to minimise delays as much as possible.

Surely that depends what kind of train/combination of trains you have. If you have a 4 car 156 then it makes sense to load one wheelchair on to one set and the other on to the other set, if it's a 2 car 150 then surely the same ramp will be used to load both wheelchairs on.

You mean like what happens currently?

I meant the doors as you suggested earlier.

If the driver closed the doors and dispatched the train himself when he was supposed to wait for a guard to do it, what would happen? Maybe the delays you were referring to above or a cancellation?

 

[Moonshot]

Surely that depends what kind of train/combination of trains you have. If you have a 4 car 156 then it makes sense to load one wheelchair on to one set and the other on to the other set, if it's a 2 car 150 then surely the same ramp will be used to load both wheelchairs on.



I meant the doors as you suggested earlier.

If the driver closed the doors and dispatched the train himself when he was supposed to wait for a guard to do it, what would happen? Maybe the delays you were referring to above or a cancellation?

I think you slightly misunderstand just how this works.......at a manned main station, platform staff generally load and unload wheelchair pax. At an ummanned , its down to the guard......who will often spot this straight away when doing the "before release doors" process. The issue with RMT is the unmanned stations would lose that ability IF there were no staff on board, and its a fair point.

 

[northwichcat]

I think you slightly misunderstand just how this works.......at a manned main station, platform staff generally load and unload wheelchair pax. At an ummanned , its down to the guard......who will often spot this straight away when doing the "before release doors" process.

Given I stated the very same thing a few posts back I don't think I misunderstand how the current process works! I was responding to a post which referred to two members of staff being involved to load two wheelchair bound passengers on board at the same station being quicker.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Surely that depends what kind of train/combination of trains you have. If you have a 4 car 156 then it makes sense to load one wheelchair on to one set and the other on to the other set, if it's a 2 car 150 then surely the same ramp will be used to load both wheelchairs on....

To an extent, situations may vary, but if there are two members of staff willing an able to help, isn't this preferable to one, or indeed none?

....I meant the doors as you suggested earlier.

If the driver closed the doors and dispatched the train himself when he was supposed to wait for a guard to do it, what would happen? Maybe the delays you were referring to above or a cancellation?

Ah, I see what you mean and I think you slightly misunderstand me, my thought is that if the second person has to go to the door to check for anyone needing assistance at every stop anyway, then the driver would never need to close them, the other member of staff would be at a door to do it. There is no confusion in that I would think.

 

[Moonshot]

To an extent, situations may vary, but if there are two members of staff willing an able to help, isn't this preferable to one, or indeed none?



Ah, I see what you mean and I think you slightly misunderstand me, my thought is that if the second person has to go to the door to check for anyone needing assistance at every stop anyway, then the driver would never need to close them, the other member of staff would be at a door to do it. There is no confusion in that I would think.

Yes it is , so then the only question that remains is what job title that member of staff has. If disabled access to a train from an unmanned station is a high priority ( and it is ), then clearly there will be a requirement for someone other than the driver to be present on that train assuming that the driver wont be given the task of loading and unloading wheelchairs.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes it is , so then the only question that remains is what job title that member of staff has. If disabled access to a train from an unmanned station is a high priority ( and it is ), then clearly there will be a requirement for someone other than the driver to be present on that train assuming that the driver wont be given the task of loading and unloading wheelchairs.

The way this is worked around in my patch (DOO, unmanned stations) is that the assistance must be arranged in advance.

If a wheelchair is present on a platform, in the absence of TOC assistance, the user will either have to get themselves onto the train or be accompanied by a friend/family member who can do so. Otherwise they will be left behind. No way it would be practical or desirable for drivers to assist given the timings we work to and the length of trains (it's rare for me to drive anything less than 8 cars) and indeed drivers are not trained to use disability ramps.

It's hard to see how this in any way provides "better customer service" for disabled passengers.

I appreciate some of these factors may be different on northern with its shorter trains and less intense timings.

 

[Moonshot]

The way this is worked around in my patch (DOO, unmanned stations) is that the assistance must be arranged in advance.

If a wheelchair is present on a platform, in the absence of TOC assistance, the user will either have to get themselves onto the train or be accompanied by a friend/family member who can do so. Otherwise they will be left behind. No way it would be practical or desirable for drivers to assist given the timings we work to and the length of trains (it's rare for me to drive anything less than 8 cars) and indeed drivers are not trained to use disability ramps.

It's hard to see how this in any way provides "better customer service" for disabled passengers.

I appreciate some of these factors may be different on northern with its shorter trains and less intense timings.

So a turn up and go wheelchair passenger would not be able to board a DOO train if there were no staff on board other than the driver. Didnt someone start a discrimination case about this ?

 

[Moonshot]

The way this is worked around in my patch (DOO, unmanned stations) is that the assistance must be arranged in advance.

If a wheelchair is present on a platform, in the absence of TOC assistance, the user will either have to get themselves onto the train or be accompanied by a friend/family member who can do so. Otherwise they will be left behind. No way it would be practical or desirable for drivers to assist given the timings we work to and the length of trains (it's rare for me to drive anything less than 8 cars) and indeed drivers are not trained to use disability ramps.

It's hard to see how this in any way provides "better customer service" for disabled passengers.

I appreciate some of these factors may be different on northern with its shorter trains and less intense timings.

Just out of interest, would you be prepared to board a wheelchair passenger at an unmanned station if they presented themselves at the first or second door behind you ?

 

[Bromley boy]

Just out of interest, would you be prepared to board a wheelchair passenger at an unmanned station if they presented themselves at the first or second door behind you ?

Hate to say it - but no I wouldn't without the relevant training. Even then there's no way it would be feasible with the timings we work to. I have every sympathy for them but as far as I'm concerned the risk is too great if something were to go wrong. I'd certainly radio the signaller and do what I could to get the situation resolved.

This has never come up - most wheelchair passengers wouldn't expect a driver to assist them and will either have assistance or be able to get on themselves - I've seen it done a few times. However I've not been driving for that long and I've already had a couple of passcoms where assistance has not materialised to allow a wheelchair passenger to disembark.

I honestly can't see how a DOO railway with unmanned stations can offer a "turn-up-and-go" service to disabled passengers in the way that guarded trains can.

 

[Bromley boy]

So a turn up and go wheelchair passenger would not be able to board a DOO train if there were no staff on board other than the driver. Didnt someone start a discrimination case about this ?

If they can't get themselves on (some wheelchair users can) and don't have anyone able bodied to assist them, then no unfortunately they can't. I believe this was discussed in relationship to the southern DOO dispute - not sure if a claim was actually brought.

 

[northwichcat]

If they can't get themselves on (some wheelchair users can) and don't have anyone able bodied to assist them, then no unfortunately they can't. I believe this was discussed in relationship to the southern DOO dispute - not sure if a claim was actually brought.

What's worth remembering is the deadline for trains being accessible is 1st January 2020. At present it wouldn't be illegal for a train operator to organise a taxi to take a disabled passenger to an alternative station where assistance is available. On 1st January 2020 the disabled passenger should be able to use any station which a non-disabled passenger can use without pre-booking any assistance.

The deadline was part of the problem with a wheelchair user taking First Bus to court. At the date of the court case it would have still been legal for First to use a bus which couldn't carry a wheelchair user.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah, I see what you mean and I think you slightly misunderstand me, my thought is that if the second person has to go to the door to check for anyone needing assistance at every stop anyway, then the driver would never need to close them, the other member of staff would be at a door to do it. There is no confusion in that I would think.

You did originally say the second member of staff would have to go to the doors at all stations to check for passengers needing assistance but then you did seem to accept that at busier stations the station staff could continue to provide assistance. Consequently that means there would be a slight disadvantage to the second staff member going to the doors to close them at large stations, as they wouldn't have to go to the doors at such stations if the driver closes the doors.

 

[Moonshot]

Hate to say it - but no I wouldn't without the relevant training. Even then there's no way it would be feasible with the timings we work to. I have every sympathy for them but as far as I'm concerned the risk is too great if something were to go wrong. I'd certainly radio the signaller and do what I could to get the situation resolved.

This has never come up - most wheelchair passengers wouldn't expect a driver to assist them and will either have assistance or be able to get on themselves - I've seen it done a few times. However I've not been driving for that long and I've already had a couple of passcoms where assistance has not materialised to allow a wheelchair passenger to disembark.

I honestly can't see how a DOO railway with unmanned stations can offer a "turn-up-and-go" service to disabled passengers in the way that guarded trains can.

Well to be honest , the relevant training is putting down a ramp....hardly an onerous task. I only asked because one of our drivers ( I work for Northern ) actually did this the other month. Not policy of course, but I would agree that a turn up and go policy needs staff either on trains or at stations.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well to be honest , the relevant training is putting down a ramp....hardly an onerous task. I only asked because one of our drivers ( I work for Northern ) actually did this the other month. Not policy of course, but I would agree that a turn up and go policy needs staff either on trains or at stations.

Yep it's not difficult I fully accept* - more that if you're driving a 10 / 12 car and the wheelchair is too far back, it's simply impractical to call the signaller shut down the cab, go back, find the ramp etc. It takes 10-15 mins just to reset a passcom.

I honestly don't think there's any practical way for drivers to do this, even if the training was given. I accept things may be different up north with much shorter trains.

*although given how heavy wheelchairs are and the risk of tipping someone between the platform and the train, particularly in 3rd rail land where there's live shoe gear at ground level, I certainly wouldn't perform the task without having had the training.

 

[Clip]

*although given how heavy wheelchairs are and the risk of tipping someone between the platform and the train, particularly in 3rd rail land where there's live shoe gear at ground level, I certainly wouldn't perform the task without having had the training.

The shoes are far enough away from the doors that should you topple and the gap was big enough for both you and the person in the chair to fit into - you still wouldn't come into contact with it?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Thats what happens now. To put into context though, I probably get the ramp out about once every 2 weeks when I m working a train. There was an instant a few month back when 2 wheelchair pax turned at at an unmanned station at either end of a 4 car unit.......to save a bit of time the driver got out and loaded one,

But that should not be taken as a general indicator of the level of demand for ramp-assisted boarding across Northern's network. I used to do exactly the same job as you do now and my experience was that it was unusual to go a single day without needing to provide ramp-assisted boarding/alighting. Given the gradual assertion by PRMs of their legally enshrined rights it would be reasonable to assume that the need for ramps will become greater in future, ergo for every station[1] call there will need to be someone other than the driver available to carry this out. So if DOO is to exist at all then either all stations need to be staffed at all times or all trains must have a second suitably trained member of staff aboard at all times. The fact that existing DOO schemes do not necessarily conform to this "standard" is something which will surely be subject to a legal challenge at some point.

[1] assuming stations are themselves accessible

 

[Moonshot]

But that should not be taken as a general indicator of the level of demand for ramp-assisted boarding across Northern's network. I used to do exactly the same job as you do now and my experience was that it was unusual to go a single day without needing to provide ramp-assisted boarding/alighting. Given the gradual assertion by PRMs of their legally enshrined rights it would be reasonable to assume that the need for ramps will become greater in future, ergo for every station[1] call there will need to be someone other than the driver available to carry this out. So if DOO is to exist at all then either all stations need to be staffed at all times or all trains must have a second suitably trained member of staff aboard at all times. The fact that existing DOO schemes do not necessarily conform to this "standard" is something which will surely be subject to a legal challenge at some point.

[1] assuming stations are themselves accessible

A point I have already made earlier.....I can assure you however that the ramp doesnt come out all that often.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You did originally say the second member of staff would have to go to the doors at all stations to check for passengers needing assistance but then you did seem to accept that at busier stations the station staff could continue to provide assistance. Consequently that means there would be a slight disadvantage to the second staff member going to the doors to close them at large stations, as they wouldn't have to go to the doors at such stations if the driver closes the doors.

Okay, so the second person doesn't go to the door at main stations, they don't see platform staff loading a wheelchair user on to the train and the station staff cannot pass on travel details to them before the driver shuts the doors, the second person is busy checking and selling tickets, answering questions and generally being helpful long enough to only find out about the wheelchair user after the train has passed their destination.

A rather simplistic example, but I'm sure it will illustrate some potential problems.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

A point I have already made earlier.....I can assure you however that the ramp doesnt come out all that often.

And as I said that may be true on your "patch" but it was not true on mine! Do not make sweeping generalisations and then be surprised when people dispute them: they will only hold true some of the time.

 

[the sniper]

You did originally say the second member of staff would have to go to the doors at all stations to check for passengers needing assistance but then you did seem to accept that at busier stations the station staff could continue to provide assistance. Consequently that means there would be a slight disadvantage to the second staff member going to the doors to close them at large stations, as they wouldn't have to go to the doors at such stations if the driver closes the doors.

At a large station, presumably with many people leaving/boarding, what service is an OBS going to be proving inside the train while in the platform? If they're down the aisle, they'll be in the way. Either they'll be at a door anyway, or sat in the back cab out of the way. Inevitably, as we've seen on Southern, the OBS will still be at a door for a 'busier station', whatever scope that covers. Even First Class hosts on various TOCs are told to stand at a door when at a station.

You also seem to have tremendous faith in the travel assist system. Numerous times I've worked trains through one of the country's busiest station's and found a wheelchair passenger alone, wishing to board my train, but left waiting for a passenger assistant to turn up and get the ramp for them. I've sorted out the ramp, no drama. Alternatively they can get left behind.

With real world experience you'd also know that any station staff putting someone on would want/need to tell the Guard/OBS where the passenger is going. This will be even more important under the DCO model, as the platform staff would need to establish whether there was actually an OBS onboard to assist the person getting off at the end of the journey. Before you say about the destination being a manned station, as a Guard I always want to know where a wheelchair is going, as it's common for the station staff supposedly at the other end to not be there.

A point I have already made earlier.....I can assure you however that the ramp doesnt come out all that often.

I'm surprised there's so much regional variation. Where I am you don't normally go more than a couple of days without getting the ramp. Two separate passengers (getting them on and off) in a shift is the norm on some jobs.

 

[northwichcat]

At a large station, presumably with many people leaving/boarding, what service is an OBS going to be proving inside the train while in the platform? If they're down the aisle, they'll be in the way. Either they'll be at a door anyway, or sat in the back cab out of the way. Inevitably, as we've seen on Southern, the OBS will still be at a door for a 'busier station', whatever scope that covers. Even First Class hosts on various TOCs are told to stand at a door when at a station.

A bigger station doesn't automatically mean a lot of people get on or off a particular service at that station. Chester station gets 9 times more passengers using it than Knutsford station but Chester gets fewer Mid-Cheshire line passengers than Knutsford. OK in that case it isn't relevant as Mid-Cheshire services start/terminate at Chester but it's an example I'm aware of where a bigger station gets fewer passengers getting on and off a particular service, so I'm sure there's plenty of others.

 

[the sniper]

A bigger station doesn't automatically mean a lot of people get on or off a particular service at that station. Chester station gets 9 times more passengers using it than Knutsford station but Chester gets fewer Mid-Cheshire line passengers than Knutsford. OK in that case it isn't relevant as Mid-Cheshire services start/terminate at Chester but it's an example I'm aware of where a bigger station gets fewer passengers getting on and off a particular service, so I'm sure there's plenty of others.

With respect, there are pro-DCO arguments to be made, but this isn't one of them.

 

[Bromley boy]

The shoes are far enough away from the doors that should you topple and the gap was big enough for both you and the person in the chair to fit into - you still wouldn't come into contact with it?

Not necessarily - on a DMOS/MOS the doors are right next to the bogies. There are some stations where the gap is very substantial.

If i tried to assist a wheelchair user onto one of my trains with a safety ramp it would be no different to any other member of the public doing it. I'm not trained to do it and therefore if I did it to try and help someone out I'd be exposing myself to enormous risk if something went wrong..

More to the point, even if the training were provided, it simply isn't feasible for drivers to do this in a busy commuter area.

 

[northwichcat]

Yorkshire and North East strike timetables have been made available. North West ones are apparently going to be made available next week: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action

 

[Bletchleyite]

More to the point, even if the training were provided, it simply isn't feasible for drivers to do this in a busy commuter area.

It does show that the UK is a bit backside-about-face ( ) with DOO. In other European countries you have it more on short regional trains where the driver getting out and going back a coach or two isn't going to be a great issue (though the Swiss have avoided the issue by going to low floor and level boarding for regional trains). In the UK we ban it on AB branch lines[1] (so something like a Pacer that would be almost ideal as a DOO unit, requiring little more than folding mirrors, never is and in most places in Europe probably would be) yet have it on long trains.

[1] I do recognise the safety reasoning behind this - it's just interesting comparing approaches.

 

[Bromley boy]

It does show that the UK is a bit backside-about-face ( ) with DOO. In other European countries you have it more on short regional trains where the driver getting out and going back a coach or two isn't going to be a great issue (though the Swiss have avoided the issue by going to low floor and level boarding for regional trains). In the UK we ban it on AB branch lines[1] (so something like a Pacer that would be almost ideal as a DOO unit, requiring little more than folding mirrors, never is and in most places in Europe probably would be) yet have it on long trains.

[1] I do recognise the safety reasoning behind this - it's just interesting comparing approaches.

Yes indeed. In my neck of the woods, at the London end of the route, twelve car DOO trains run alongside four car guarded mainline trains!

That's an interesting point - is there an outright ban on DOO in absolute block areas simply by virtue of the fact they're absolute block?

I suppose it makes sense that under "true" absolute block, with no continuous train detection available to the signaller, the requirement for a traditional guard should be retained but, from a quick google search, I can't find an authority for this.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Yorkshire and North East strike timetables have been made available. North West ones are apparently going to be made available next week: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/industrial-action

Wonder why they only released them now given strike action was announced a week or so ago? Is it because the chances are getting ever slimmer that the strike may be called off?