Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bantamzen]

The company have just issued a statement via email to staff stating what they expect from talks while it's negotiating team are supposedly "negotiating", not exactly conducive to productive talks.

But what they expect, or more accurately want from the negotiations is not the same as demanding every condition be met before agreeing to meet, which is what the RMT were threatening. Both sides do have stated aims, the negotiations will be be about meeting somewhere in the middle.

 

[northwichcat]

Still haven't answered my question. Where you at the meeting? I should really ignore your posts as they do my blood pressure no good. I vowed not to come back on this particular thread and I'm rather annoyed with myself for doing so. However, I think everyone else now can see that there are very few if any objective views on this thread and it should change its title to "why I think the guards are right/wrong to strike" .It would be more honest.

As you know I'm not a RMT leader or Northern management I presumed your question was hypothetical but if you also want confirmation that I'm not an ACAS mediator I'll give you that as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly. Northern have said they are willing to discuss the issue further, the RMT have demanded Northern offer them everything before the negotiations. This is a tactic that heralds from the 1970s and has no place in modern dispute resolution.

And RMT should know from history that that kind of tactic is not liked by politicians or the general public as a whole and will reduce the chance of a pro-trade union government at the next election and increase the chance of one that wants to make trade unions less powerful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And RMT should know from history that that kind of tactic is not liked by politicians or the general public as a whole and will reduce the chance of a pro-trade union government at the next election and increase the chance of one that wants to make trade unions less powerful.

Or leads to the line "well, if they won't let us save money, buses are cheaper".

 

[northwichcat]

Or leads to the line "well, if they won't let us save money, buses are cheaper".

Well the idea of replacing branch lines, which don't have freight use, with guided coachways could return when the 150s are up for withdrawal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well the idea of replacing branch lines, which don't have freight use, with guided coachways could return when the 150s are up for withdrawal.

Or just bus-only roads.

 

[scrapy]

Just an update on ACAS meeting that should of began at 10.00. As of 12.30 RMT reps are sat in a hotel room as Arriva haven't turned up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just an update on ACAS meeting that should of began at 10.00. As of 12.30 RMT reps are sat in a hotel room as Arriva haven't turned up.

Is that because the RMT will not negotiate on their demands, which would render it pointless for them to bother?

 

[northwichcat]

Is that because the RMT will not negotiate on their demands, which would render it pointless for them to bother?

Northern: "We are pleased that RMT has agreed to recommence talks at ACAS with no pre-conditions and we look forward to resolving this long-running dispute."
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/n...n-regards-to-the-rmt-s-dispute-and-acas-talks

RMT: "This union is and always has been available for talks and we are prepared to engage in talks immediately via ACAS. We welcome the correspondence from Transport for the North, the Department for Transport and the company. We note however that Arriva Rail North have not made any clear proposals to this union to resolve this dispute."
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-offers-to-suspend-northern-rail-action291118/

Something doesn't sound right.

 

[northwichcat]

Just an update on ACAS meeting that should of began at 10.00. As of 12.30 RMT reps are sat in a hotel room as Arriva haven't turned up.

Presumably the RMT have been trying to get hold of the people from Arriva to try to establish what has happened, unless they already know a reason e.g. dropping the agreement to meet without pre-conditions but don't want to disclose it?

 

[scrapy]

Presumably the RMT have been trying to get hold of the people from Arriva to try to establish what has happened, unless they already know a reason e.g. dropping the agreement to meet without pre-conditions but don't want to disclose it?

As far as I'm aware no preconditions have been set by either side. They will have tried this as I'm sure acas will. There is a feeling this has simply been a ploy by Northern/tfn to get RMT to suspend strikes until after Xmas. David Brown has issued a memo to Northern staff saying a second person on the train would be competent in customer service, ticket selling, looking after passenger security and providing disabled access. So it seems Northerns answers to the RMTs 3 questions are possibly, no and no.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, Northern basically seem to be offering OBS working. And there are enough 15x and 170s out there that those guards with no interest in this are going to be able to continue being actual guards for the foreseeable.

Unless there is reason to believe Arriva are lying (in which case they might as well plan in the strikes now up to the franchise end, because no negotiation will succeed unless both parties are wholly truthful and honourable in intention), then I can't see how I can now support the RMT at all.

 

[Starmill]

So, Northern basically seem to be offering OBS working.

Is there really strong evidence for that though? If that's true, why didn't today's meeting proceed on that basis? And what's more I haven't seen a statement from the company that actually says this? Or anything neccesarily close to it?

 

[scrapy]

Talks started this afternoon. No info on how they are progressing.

 

[sandyravage]

Talks break down. No change in the company proposals that were put to the RMT in August. ARN are "Not" committing to a second person ON "All" trains. The talks never even got onto safety critical competencies or platform train interface procedures. Just got off the blower to one of the RMT reps. Northern say they need clarity on DfT/TfN statements last week and haven't had time to get the detail since the statements from both parties last week.

 

[northernchris]

I suppose its not surprising. Both sides need to be willing to move a little in order for progress to be made. If DfT and TfN have final say then Arriva will need clarity from them. Perhaps it was too early to call for further talks. Hopefully this won't lead to further action over Christmas though

 

[yorksrob]

Talks break down. No change in the company proposals that were put to the RMT in August. ARN are "Not" committing to a second person ON "All" trains. The talks never even got onto safety critical competencies or platform train interface procedures. Just got off the blower to one of the RMT reps. Northern say they need clarity on DfT/TfN statements last week and haven't had time to get the detail since the statements from both parties last week.

This really takes the biscuit if true.

Arriva have already been told that TfN want a second person on each train.

They need to either shut up and get on with it, or be got rid of.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfN aren't the franchising authority, are they? They can want all they like, but if the DfT say DOO, then DOO it is.

 

[PR1Berske]

How long can this be allowed to continue? There could soon, quite feasibly, be no Northern train services on Saturdays. At all. Is this truly what the RMT want?

 

[Robertj21a]

How long can this be allowed to continue? There could soon, quite feasibly, be no Northern train services on Saturdays. At all. Is this truly what the RMT want?

Has there been any evidence to date that they are very bothered ?

 

[185]

Show Ignored Content

Long ago I read peoples points of view on this matter and nothing on either side has evolved, with no intelligent debate just round and round in circles hurling insults.

Tis a shame, as it is a subject affecting many passengers, staff and politicians as is evident from petitions and public opinion.

 

[Kite159]

Not really surprised the talks collapsed when Arriva failed to give into the demands made by the RMT. The passengers of Northern will just have to keep suffering, eventually giving up on the railway. I wonder how much it will cost to convert some of those branch lines to busways...

Anyhow the RMT's response from today's meeting:

4 December 2018

RMT Press Office:

Northern Rail collapse ACAS talks aimed at settling Guards' safety dispute

RAIL UNION RMT said today that it had been left “angry, frustrated and determined to fight on in the interests of passenger safety” after Arriva Rail North collapsed ACAS talks aimed at negotiating a settlement to the long-running dispute over the role of the guard and the extension of driver controlled operation.

When the talks eventually convened the union was shocked to hear that there is no process or will from the company to address the unions three fundamental points around the role of a second person on Northern trains. Specifically, that there will be an absolute guarantee of that member of staff being on board, that they will be safety critical, with the full suite of competencies including de‎spatch at the platform/train interface.

In add‎ition, despite the DfT grandstanding last week there is no assurance on the funding package to underpin the second member of staff, making a mockery of both the talks and the Government statements.

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said;

“RMT’s negotiating team arrived at the talks this morning only to find that they were shunted into a side room while the company played for time. They even issued a bulletin to staff making it clear that the ACAS talks were nothing but a stunt on their part to buy a bit of time and try and hoodwink the union into suspending action.

"Even after we eventually got in the room with ARN it was clear that they were either unwilling or unable to address the unions position on the three key points we have set out and the fundamental issues at ‎the heart of the dispute.

"Frankly, it defies belief that despite the spin from the Government last week the very basic issue of a funding package to underpin a second person on Northern trains has been booted into the long grass. That is a disgrace.

“RMT is sick of being treated with contempt and taken for a ride by those at the controls of the basket-case Northern Rail franchise and their paymasters in Government. Their cynical actions have collapsed the talks process and the programme of strike action remains on and the blame for that lies fair and square with the company.”

RMT Press Release Bingo:
Basket Case Franchise, Tick
But at least they have finally noticed it is the government pulling the strings and not their paymasters in Germany.

 

[furnessvale]

RMT Press Release Bingo:
Basket Case Franchise, Tick
But at least they have finally noticed it is the government pulling the strings and not their paymasters in Germany.

Of course the government are the paymasters, using taxpayers money, most of whom never use a train. Does the RMT think that farepaying passenger provide enough to pay the bills?

 

[DaveB10780]

We the passengers don't wish the RMT to "fight for passengers safety" but to run a rail service. Their attitude has no place in this day and age. Eventually they will be gone and good riddance to them. However please keep the guards as the second person on the train, they just need to escape from the dinosaurs who are living in the past.

 

[MDB1images]

Northern saying they want clarity on TFNs thoughts is strange, I may be mistaken but IIthought it was those TFN "thoughts" that helped bring the two groups to the table?

Also if it's true Northerns representatives arrived late(again) and left the RMT waiting then it would seem a bizarre way of trying to win over conductors as surely they knew this would be reported on and that the people they are trying to win over would view that as very poor form.

 

[Darandio]

I'm often critical of the RMT press releases and repeatedly label them embarrassing, this one is no different and the whole 'basket case' stuff has been donw to death now and needs to stop. But the Northern response is equally embarassing. It's equally embarassing because it's mealy mouthed drivel and they don't care any more, their end game to this whole situation is that they want out completely.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/news/latest-news/2153-northern-reacts-to-acas-talks-with-rmt

Northern has issued a statement following the conclusion of ACAS talks with RMT earlier today (Tuesday 4 December).

Richard Allan, Deputy Managing Director at Northern, said: “Today at ACAS talks, Northern went in to the meeting with an open mind and made it clear we wish to continue discussions and all options will be considered that involve the deployment of two members of staff on Northern services.

“Any customer who needs help with access, personal security, information, ticketing and so on will have a member of staff, in addition to the driver, on-board trains to help them.

“On behalf of customers and stakeholders, and in the spirit of working together, Northern would welcome RMT postponing its planned industrial action. We look forward to further talks at ACAS.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm often critical of the RMT press releases and repeatedly label them embarrassing, this one is no different and the whole 'basket case' stuff has been donw to death now and needs to stop. But the Northern response is equally embarassing. It's equally embarassing because it's mealy mouthed drivel and they don't care any more, their end game to this whole situation is that they want out completely.

I doubt many people would be disappointed if they did, to be honest.

 

[Meerkat]

Errr....the Northern one appears to offer a compromise, talking about two staff on the trains, whilst the RMT one demands capitulation AND now demands that the taxpayer pays for it.

 

[Darandio]

Errr....the Northern one appears to offer a compromise, talking about two staff on the trains, whilst the RMT one demands capitulation AND now demands that the taxpayer pays for it.

And that means that not a single thing has changed. Northern were sending emails to staff this morning before the talks even started, then claim they haven't had time to get the clarity on the statements made last week. They went into talks today without any intention whatsoever of talking about anything!

 

[DaveB10780]

And that means that not a single thing has changed. Northern were sending emails to staff this morning before the talks even started, then claim they haven't had time to get the clarity on the statements made last week. They went into talks today without any intention whatsoever of talking about anything!

Seems like it on the surface, what a crazy world we inhabit. Total incompetence.