Arriva Rail North DOO

[Carlisle]

Perhaps the whole thing needs to be swept away and replaced by a collective, in which decisions are made by a board controlled 50/50 by a strong passenger group/devolved Government.
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Yes although in practice (assuming nothing else changes) that would only kick the can down the road until the ‘collective’ had to take tough decisions of their own not liked by the presumably still militant unions and create an almost similar deadlock scenario to the one that currently exists., still having no proper idea how to go forward with anything that didn’t amount to total capitulation, .plus if the union proves the Saturday strikesa a resounding success don’t you think they’ll be an extremely attractive option in future disputes ?

 

[Starmill]

What evidence is there that the Saturday strikes are costing the government much money? Northern trains are among the highest subsidised services in the country. If a reduced timetable is being run and little or no late services, then drivers are not being rostered, station staffing may be saved, BTP costs may be being reduced and so on. NR costs are mainly fixed, but most of the lines have other services running on them. Doubtless these services are filled rather 'cosily' but may be alternative solutions for many pax.

Perhaps there are bus services that were receiving public subsidy previouly that are now profitable.

I just wonder what the true overall financial effect is; a good task for an investigative reporter who doesn't just write his articles from Twitter?

There would be no savings to speak of from wages of drivers, station staff and others. They will all still be being paid as normal - even if they are sat around doing nothing, or are sent home part way through their shift.

The savings will come frkm not having to pay the guards for a day, from lower fuel or electricity bills and lower mileage on the rolling stock - all pretty marginal. There's debate about the impact on track access charges.

This losses will mainly be the extra hours paid to the contingency conductors and ticket examiners, and the reported bonuses they receive, and the reported overnight accommodation they need, plus any taxi bills. There will also be lost revenue and higher than usual compensation payments to people who booked tickets before the strike wad announced, and to season ticket holders who get a daily rate back.

Taking one day in isolation, I doubt that there is any money to be saved. If there is, it's likely to be pretty marginal. In the long-term, once they inconvenience, repuataional damage and direct repeat business (e.g. People who've refunded their annual because they've got sick of the disruption) is taken into account then it's clear the losses are very significant. This year's Estimates of Station Usage show a very significant pattern of decline at lots of suburban stations served by Northern.

 

[Killingworth]

This year's Estimates of Station Usage show a very significant pattern of decline at lots of suburban stations served by Northern.

The strikes didn't start to bite in 2017/18, so the figures for 2018/19 will show the greatest effect. Stations only served by Northern are likely to show falls of 5-10% at least.

 

[Starmill]

The strikes didn't start to bite in 2017/18,

The first strike was on 13 March 2017, before the 2017-18 figures took effect the month after that. It seems that more than a third of the strike dates we've had so far were in that period, so the declines it shows are almost certainly related.

The May Disaster will be in the figures released a year from now as as well as the ongoing strike action.

 

[Killingworth]

The first strike was on 13 March 2017, before the 2017-18 figures took effect the month after that. It seems that more than a third of the strike dates we've had so far were in that period, so the declines it shows are almost certainly related.

The May Disaster will be in the figures released a year from now as as well as the ongoing strike action.

We can certainly agree that they're biting now with a 6 day railway. I was too optimistic when I said a fall of 5-10% and have edited to add "at least," bearing in mind the May mayhem as well.

 

[quantinghome]

Yes although in practice (assuming nothing else changes) that would only kick the can down the road until the ‘collective’ had to take tough decisions of their own not liked by the presumably still militant unions and create an almost similar deadlock scenario to the one that currently exists., still having no proper idea how to go forward with anything that didn’t amount to total capitulation, .plus if the union proves the Saturday strikesa a resounding success don’t you think they’ll be an extremely attractive option in future disputes ?

If the unions were going on strike to obtain (say) an unreasonable hike in pay then you might have a point. But they're not. They are on strike because the TOC (under instructions to do so by the government) are looking to get rid of the role staff are currently working, allowing deskilling of onboard staff in order to save money. There's a discussion to be had about whether that's a good or bad thing, but it's no surprise at all that unions start to act when skilled roles are planned to be removed. This is not militancy.

It's notable that the same union has reached agreement in Scotland and Wales on the same issue. The difference there is that the RMT were negotiating with transport organisations who were willing to make pragmatic decisions for the overall good of the railway and passengers. However, with Northern Railway and elsewhere in England the conflict is being driven by a government with a dogmatic anti-union agenda who is perfectly willing to let passengers, and the railway in general, suffer.

 

[Matt_pool]

"6 day railway"?

More like 5 day railway with all of the cancellations (some "planned" but also a lot are last minute) on Sundays!

Northern have got a hell of a lot to do to win back the support of its customers!

 

[sandyravage]

The RMT executive were called back to London last Friday to debate a proposal that was supposedly being submitted that day. This was after Andy Burnham, Bredan Barber (ACAS) thought they had negotiated a form of words with the Tory Rail Minister that they believed would help break the deadlock. The Unions executive all made their way to London but the proposal never arrived in writing.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes although in practice (assuming nothing else changes) that would only kick the can down the road until the ‘collective’ had to take tough decisions of their own not liked by the presumably still militant unions and create an almost similar deadlock scenario to the one that currently exists., still having no proper idea how to go forward with anything that didn’t amount to total capitulation, .plus if the union proves the Saturday strikesa a resounding success don’t you think they’ll be an extremely attractive option in future disputes ?

Or the collective might have a more balanced view of what was actually important to passengers:

On the one hand, the cornucopia of benefits supposedly offered by DCO over DO/GC including the ability to run a passenger train on the occasions that the guard isn't there and the saving maybe of a couple of seconds at each stop, or on the other hand, a functioning train service every day of the week.

 

[yorksrob]

The RMT executive were called back to London last Friday to debate a proposal that was supposedly being submitted that day. This was after Andy Burnham, Bredan Barber (ACAS) thought they had negotiated a form of words with the Tory Rail Minister that they believed would help break the deadlock. The Unions executive all made their way to London but the proposal never arrived in writing.

Who is the Tory rail minister these days ? They all seem more interested in flouncing around pronouncing on Brexit than sorting out the railway.

 

[Carlisle]

If the unions were going on strike to obtain (say) an unreasonable hike in pay then you might have a point. But they're not.
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It’s fairly likley many previous pay related rail strikes commanded significantly more public sympathy than the current dispute has done, considering long hours and low wages were well known to be very much the norm, as opposed to the predominantly manufactured arguments we’re seeing used to try and bolster the masses to support the current DOO disputes

 

[Starmill]

Who is the Tory rail minister these days ? They all seem more interested in flouncing around pronouncing on Brexit than sorting out the railway.

Andrew Jones is recently appointed.

 

[yorksrob]

Andrew Jones is recently appointed.

Thanks for the info.

If he's making verbal agreements but not backing them up as suggested a few posts back, it suggests he's not taking the problem seriously.

 

[Meerkat]

It's notable that the same union has reached agreement in Scotland and Wales on the same issue. The difference there is that the RMT were negotiating with transport organisations who were willing to make pragmatic decisions for the overall good of the railway and passengers

You mean those organisations caved in to blackmail rather than make decisions for the long term good of the passengers and railway....

 

[CN75]

If the unions were going on strike to obtain (say) an unreasonable hike in pay then you might have a point. But they're not. They are on strike because the TOC (under instructions to do so by the government) are looking to get rid of the role staff are currently working, allowing deskilling of onboard staff in order to save money. There's a discussion to be had about whether that's a good or bad thing, but it's no surprise at all that unions start to act when skilled roles are planned to be removed. This is not militancy.

It's notable that the same union has reached agreement in Scotland and Wales on the same issue. The difference there is that the RMT were negotiating with transport organisations who were willing to make pragmatic decisions for the overall good of the railway and passengers. However, with Northern Railway and elsewhere in England the conflict is being driven by a government with a dogmatic anti-union agenda who is perfectly willing to let passengers, and the railway in general, suffer.

The DfT believes the changes proposed are in passenger interests. As has been commented before, if this episode of industrial relations isn’t taken on at some point, it would simply kick the problem down the path. After twenty-five years of no progress on the rapid introduction of DOO-P that British Rail was achieving, the DfT would see themselves having a duty to step in to achieve their mandate which is to provide the best for passengers balancing all the factors on each franchise. The most intensive, high capacity and some of the fastest services in the country operate driver only without a second person on board to be seen - safely and daily. However, this isn’t what the DfT are attempting to achieve on Northern or SWR. In each case the second person is being guaranteed as a useful, customer focused job - but not at the expense of passengers potentially being stranded. It is a matter of opinion as to if the RMT (or ASLEF) should run the railway or the DfT, but from both sides it is easy to see why they are prepared to fight until the other party fails.

 

[yorksrob]

The DfT believes the changes proposed are in passenger interests. As has been commented before, if this episode of industrial relations isn’t taken on at some point, it would simply kick the problem down the path. After twenty-five years of no progress on the rapid introduction of DOO-P that British Rail was achieving, the DfT would see themselves having a duty to step in to achieve their mandate which is to provide the best for passengers balancing all the factors on each franchise. The most intensive, high capacity and some of the fastest services in the country operate driver only without a second person on board to be seen - safely and daily. However, this isn’t what the DfT are attempting to achieve on Northern or SWR. In each case the second person is being guaranteed as a useful, customer focused job - but not at the expense of passengers potentially being stranded. It is a matter of opinion as to if the RMT (or ASLEF) should run the railway or the DfT, but from both sides it is easy to see why they are prepared to fight until the other party fails.

That's naff all use to us when we haven't got a train service. How is it in the Governments mandate to force us to to make do with a six day week railway ? If they are that determined to introduce utopia of DOO, they should have waited until the trains were equipped to operate with it, not force passengers to be held hostage whilst the second person can still stop the show.

 

[scrapy]

If the compromise is that the guard is fully safety trained and able to dispatch where the DCO system fails or driver is unable to for whatever reason then that maybe something the RMT would accept as they have on Anglia. This would also prevent trains being cancelled for equipment failure. Aligning diagrams so drivers and guards largely do the same work in a shift would also minimise short notice cancellations as the guard would be where the driver is (this may need changes to guards t&C's which again may be a compromise). Rather than the completely random diagrams with multiple crew changes Northern currently have.

This would give the performance benefits many are asking for along with customer service and safety benefits, and would guarantee a second safety critical person on every train. It would also prove that this is not a short or long-term cost cutting exercise or an attempt at union bashing by the government so would be win,win for passengers, the RMT and the DFT.

 

[Meerkat]

That doesn’t solve the problem, it just kicks dealing with the RMT down the road again

 

[scrapy]

That doesn’t solve the problem, it just kicks dealing with the RMT down the road again

What doesn't it solve? Why would they have to deal with the RMT further down the road?

 

[gazzaa2]

Must admit it has been a very quiet Christmas on the trains. Sunday was busy, most people are just resigned to it now though so I think the long term there will be no end in sight. Guards are happy not to work Saturday lates.

The irony is the guards are striking demanding their presence on every train, but a feature of these weekly strikes is actually they don't want to have to bother with the hassle on a Saturday.

 

[Robertj21a]

What doesn't it solve? Why would they have to deal with the RMT further down the road?

See the clear comments from CN75 at 19.04 yesterday.

 

[quantinghome]

You mean those organisations caved in to blackmail rather than make decisions for the long term good of the passengers and railway....

That's an interesting choice of words. Right to strike = Blackmail. Reducing staffing levels = long term good.

 

[scrapy]

See the clear comments from CN75 at 19.04 yesterday.

CN75 says that pure DOO isn't what the DFT is after. They are after a customer service orientated role and minimising cancellations. If the guard has the same diagram as the driver they are unlikely not to be there at short notice, are able to dispatch the train in the event of equipment failure (getting the advantage of reduced dwell times) where the train would otherwise be cancelled if they weren't trained to dispatch. Therefore I'm not sure why it would need to be revisited in the future, unless the RMT are right and it's simply about destaffing and deskilling the railway.

 

[Killingworth]

That's an interesting choice of words. Right to strike = Blackmail. Reducing staffing levels = long term good.

Emotive language where equivalence is implied but not totally correct. There have been many battles to retain or lose more staff across all industries. Some ended going too far with industrial action, and in many places it can be argued that more staff were subsequently lost as a result.

We need more conciliation. The right to strike is one thing, but to use that weapon so often, and so soon, invites calls for further restrictions to that right. Striking should be the weapon kept locked away, only to be used as the last resort, not the first.

Hard to see how disarmament can occur in mid conflict! The usual result is that both sides lose. The only doubt is how bad, and where, the damage will be.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Emotive language where equivalence is implied but not totally correct. There have been many battles to retain or lose more staff across all industries. Some ended going too far with industrial action, and in many places it can be argued that more staff were subsequently lost as a result.

We need more conciliation. The right to strike is one thing, but to use that weapon so often, and so soon, invites calls for further restrictions to that right. Striking should be the weapon kept locked away, only to be used as the last resort, not the first.

Hard to see how disarmament can occur in mid conflict! The usual result is that both sides lose. The only doubt is how bad, and where, the damage will be.

A very sensible comment, though I can see Meerkat's point. We all want an end to the dispute but if Northern cave in to the RMT's bullyboy tactics and total disregard for passengers, Mick Cash and his cronies will crow that all the disruption they have caused has been justified and no-one wants that.

 

[yorksrob]

The truth is that passengers are being held hostage by all sides in this dispute. That said, my view is that, as with certain other topical events, a sub-optimal deal between the parties is better than no deal.

 

[Carlisle]

CN75 says that pure DOO isn't what the DFT is after. They are after a customer service orientated role and minimising cancellations. If the guard has the same diagram as the driver they are unlikely not to be there at short notice, are able to dispatch the train in the event of equipment failure (getting the advantage of reduced dwell times) where the train would otherwise be cancelled if they weren't trained to dispatch. Therefore I'm not sure why it would need to be revisited in the future, unless the RMT are right and it's simply about destaffing and deskilling the railway.

If this post reflects an increased desire by the unions side to at least now try and meet northern/ DFTs requirements somewhere in the middle, rather than just sit back after announcing a huge number of strike dates for next year, it’s surely a good thing

 

[quantinghome]

We all want an end to the dispute but if Northern cave in to the RMT's bullyboy tactics and total disregard for passengers, Mick Cash and his cronies will crow that all the disruption they have caused has been justified and no-one wants that.

Emotive language again. Someone else could just as well write "We all want an end to the dispute but if the RMT cave in to the DfT's bullyboy tactics and total disregard for passengers, Chris Grayling and his cronies will crow that all the disruption they have caused has been justified and no-one wants that."

The problem is that industrial relations are often seen as a zero-sum game, with two sides engaged in perpetual warfare, where the only outcome is win or lose for either party. This doesn't promote sensible decision-making by anybody. Other countries manage to do this rather better, but not by beating up the unions. Counter-intuitively, it is by giving unions more responsibility in the form of representation on company boards or similar provisions, that seems to work.

 

[scrapy]

The irony is the guards are striking demanding their presence on every train, but a feature of these weekly strikes is actually they don't want to have to bother with the hassle on a Saturday.

One oSaturday strikes were actually

If this post reflects an increased desire by the unions side to at least now try and meet northern/ DFTs requirements somewhere in the middle, rather than just sit back after announcing a huge number of strike dates for next year, it’s surely a good thing

It is something which I feel most Northern guards would accept in the end. Whether or not its on the table, or whether the RMT would still have to play hardball to get I have no idea.

 

[Smidster]

Not going to come as a shock to anyone here but strikes have been announced for every Saturday in January (5th, 12th, 19th & 26th)