Arriva replace 35 seater Solo SRs with Mercedes minibuses

[northwichcat]

It's been reported on Merseyside bus forum that this order: http://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/arriva-orders-nine-mellor-stratas/ of minibuses with room for 22 passengers (seated and standing) will be used to replace 35 seater Solo SRs Arriva have based at Macclesfield and Winsford on a 1 in, 1 out basis. This is despite the fact when one was obtained on a trial basis drivers reported passengers being left behind and them not being suitable for the bays at Macclesfield Bus Station. The Winsford based ones will apparently be used on services in Northwich.

 

[edwin_m]

Many operators introduced minibuses soon after deregulation, presumably in the hope of attracting more passengers with a more frequent service and also cutting operating costs per vehicle. However as a large part of the operating cost is staff wages I doubt a small vehicle saves very much. The fact pretty much all of the minibuses disappeared soon after suggests that a vehicle of that size isn't commercially viable on most routes in the UK. Is there any other operator using significant numbers of vehicles of this size on commercial bus services?

 

[northwichcat]

Is there any other operator using significant numbers of vehicles of this size on commercial bus services?

Only one I can think of is EasyBus (actually operated by multiple operators on a franchise system) but you have to pre-book so if there's no passengers for a journey then it won't run.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Many operators introduced minibuses soon after deregulation, presumably in the hope of attracting more passengers with a more frequent service and also cutting operating costs per vehicle. However as a large part of the operating cost is staff wages I doubt a small vehicle saves very much.

Allegedly the fuel savings (becoming a more significant cost) and the leasing/purchase price saving is significant.

The fact pretty much all of the minibuses disappeared soon after suggests that a vehicle of that size isn't commercially viable on most routes in the UK. Is there any other operator using significant numbers of vehicles of this size on commercial bus services?

Stagecoach are trialling it as a "little and often" operation somewhere down South.

The reason they disappeared is that a low-floor option was not available (the Solo was the sort-of-mini-ish-bus replacement with wheelchair access). It now is, so back they come.

 

[Antman]

Allegedly the fuel savings (becoming a more significant cost) and the leasing/purchase price saving is significant.



Stagecoach are trialling it as a "little and often" operation somewhere down South.

The reason they disappeared is that a low-floor option was not available (the Solo was the sort-of-mini-ish-bus replacement with wheelchair access). It now is, so back they come.

On two routes in Ashford and whilst it's still early days they seem to be very popular.

 

[northwichcat]

The reason they disappeared is that a low-floor option was not available (the Solo was the sort-of-mini-ish-bus replacement with wheelchair access). It now is, so back they come.

The 8.8m Dennis Darts were also used as replacements.

 

[gordonthemoron]

will these minibuses be disabled compliant?

 

[Bletchleyite]

will these minibuses be disabled compliant?

Yes, one wheelchair.

 

[Antman]

will these minibuses be disabled compliant?

The ones in Ashford are http://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/news/launch-of-new-minibuses-in-120474/

 

[gordonthemoron]

They look like the busses you get in Dachau

 

[the101]

The Mellor Sprinters are a different animal to the City 45s that Stagecoach is using in Kent as they are coachbuilt on chassis cowls and with 2+2 seating, rather than van conversions and 2+1. One of the Mellor examples is around £90k. That may compare well with the purchase price of a Solo, which at Euro 5 (as Optare is still building) is, I would imagine, about £130k for a smaller one. But there is no way that these Sprinters are going to do 15 years' work, which can reasonably be expected from a purpose-built bus. They'll be good for eight years or so.

The big saving is on fuel, with figures of 20mpg plus being bandied around for Sprinters on bus work.

 

[83G/84D]

It's been reported on Merseyside bus forum that this order: http://www.busandcoachbuyer.com/arriva-orders-nine-mellor-stratas/ of minibuses with room for 22 passengers (seated and standing) will be used to replace 35 seater Solo SRs Arriva have based at Macclesfield and Winsford on a 1 in, 1 out basis. This is despite the fact when one was obtained on a trial basis drivers reported passengers being left behind and them not being suitable for the bays at Macclesfield Bus Station. The Winsford based ones will apparently be used on services in Northwich.

One of the type was trialled with several operators in Devon and Cornwall late last year. I have no idea what the feedback was like from them.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

The Mellor Sprinters are a different animal to the City 45s that Stagecoach is using in Kent as they are coachbuilt on chassis cowls and with 2+2 seating, rather than van conversions and 2+1. One of the Mellor examples is around £90k. That may compare well with the purchase price of a Solo, which at Euro 5 (as Optare is still building) is, I would imagine, about £130k for a smaller one. But there is no way that these Sprinters are going to do 15 years' work, which can reasonably be expected from a purpose-built bus. They'll be good for eight years or so.

The big saving is on fuel, with figures of 20mpg plus being bandied around for Sprinters on bus work.

I'd be surprised if they last more than 6 years. I can see people being left behind on routes where these get used. They seem too small for any urban routes

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd be surprised if they last more than 6 years. I can see people being left behind on routes where these get used. They seem too small for any urban routes

The same things were said before.... Transits and Merc 608/709 were said would never last. Same with Varios.

The truth is that whilst some van derived minibuses were rubbish (Sherpas, Dodge S56), some were long lived with many >10 years old on withdrawal.

As for capacity, the idea is that frequency is uplifted - Stagecoach Little and OFTEN.

 

[northwichcat]

There are routes they could be suitable for but they tend to be routes smaller operators run rather than the big operators.

Arriva swapping the big Solos for them on a one in one out basis is concerning.

 

[Antman]

I'd be surprised if they last more than 6 years. I can see people being left behind on routes where these get used. They seem too small for any urban routes

People aren't being left behind in Ashford.

 

[radamfi]

Are we talking about high frequency here like Ashford or just the same frequency run by smaller buses?

 

[richw]

. Is there any other operator using significant numbers of vehicles of this size on commercial bus services?

They are very popular on rural routes in Devon and Cornwall. OTS of Falmouth being the biggest operator of Sprinter based buses. Several of their routes can not take anything larger as serve such a rural location the roads aren't wide enough for a proper bus!

One of the type was trialled with several operators in Devon and Cornwall late last year. I have no idea what the feedback was like from them.

OTS and Williams Travel I'm pretty sure had it. I didn't hear much other than the fuel economy was around 3 times better than a solo.

The figures I read were a Small Solo does around 7-8mpg, a Sprinter based minibus around 20-25mpg. So we're looking at around 14 gallons against 5 gallons per 100 miles, or £84 vs £30 at today's prices of around £6 a gallon!

Should a minibus be under 16 seats it can be driver by someone with a minibus licence rather than a bus licence, a minibus driver pay is typically lower.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly, though, neither of the applications of these yet have gone for 16 passenger seats, all are higher therefore full D.

 

[darloscott]

What is interesting about this order is it's mainly Arriva cutting costs by introducing the smaller vehicles, using them on town services but not increasing the frequency (which they may be forced to do!).

There will definitely be a saving in fuel as I would expect these to use about half the fuel a Solo does - a good Merc-engined Solo should be returning 11-12mpg on rural work, a bit more around towns.

 

[overthewater]

The bese dodge ones were made by alexander, plus there looked nice, as said above there made there money back many times over, and lasted alot longer than anyone expected.

Mercedes minibuses which stagecoach brought in the truck loads again lasted forever.

I thought the whole point of stagecoach idea was to try and increase passengers, and if that does happen, then slightly bigger buses could be used like MPD? I think these new gen need to have 25 seats.

 

[BestWestern]

The ones in Ashford are http://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/news/launch-of-new-minibuses-in-120474/

Grim, is all that comes to mind (less so if they all have a tasty blonde actress as a permanent feature ), I imagine they offer a 'patient transport' experience. And £90k for a Sprinter? Yikes. The previous 'second' generation of larger minibuses would have gone on forever, but of course they were light lorries underneath, and properly coachbuilt on top. Bog standard vans aren't made to last, rust comes as a standard feature after a few years. They'll be swapping engines, gearboxes and patching them up in no time. Whether that still represents good value over buying proper buses, I suppose time will tell. If there was a market for this sort of thing, why did Optare's Alero fail so spectacularly? That was, surely, just about the best compromise you'll get between bus and van?

 

[Bletchleyite]

why did Optare's Alero fail so spectacularly? That was, surely, just about the best compromise you'll get between bus and van?

The Alero failed essentially because it was rubbish - the build quality and reliability were appalling. I think to all useful[1] intents and purposes the mini-Solo replaced it.

As for longevity, as others have said the Beavers and the likes went on forever, and those had (admittedly larger) van running gear. Only disability legislation (quite rightly) killed them.

[1] Bus companies generally aren't going for saving costs by using 17 seaters under D1, they're mostly speccing these minibuses for roughly 20-22 passengers. So I guess there isn't much to be saved by having a small pool of non-standard drivers.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Being a very regular user of Ashford's "Little & Often" service, I will stick my penny's worth into the discussion.

My first initial reaction to the idea when it was announced was one of little faith. The idea of replacing a mix of Solos, Darts, Tridents and whatever Ashford depot could muster with these Brotwagens was ridiculous. However, as time went on and more information was supplied things became a little more positive. A bus every five minutes rather than every 15-20 and a more stable Sunday service couldn't be all that bad surely.

Day one of the new service and let's just say it got off to a ropey start and this continued throughout the first two weeks. Buses regularly arriving in convoys of three, some changing routes between B & C unexpectedly, you know, MASSIVE teething and bedding in issues! But, after a month or so things settled down into what is now quite a reliable and dependable offering compared to the old order, especially on Sundays and much later evening buses which makes getting home from work much easier (last buses used to be around 2100, now it's 2255 everyday).

The vehicles took time to grow on me. I can only sit in 4 of the normal-style seats as well as the 4 tip-ups by the door. Legroom is practically non-existent elsewhere due to the wheelarches. Ventilation is nothing more than a roof-mounted extraction fan above the door in the passenger saloon. The driver gets the usual fans and opening window. The drivers seem to like them as they're quick off the mark and their seat has lumbar support. I've only ever had one issue getting on with a buggy, and that was during a Sunday timetable and I ended up driving to the station to catch a train with littlen instead, but with the Mon-Sat 5-min frequency it's not much of a big deal. However, get two old dears with their shopping trolleys on board and things get cosy to say the least.

Seating capacity is somewhat confused. There are 13 normal saeats plus 4 tip-ups, making 17 seated passengers in total, 16 if there's a wheelchair and 9 standing. Look at the capacity label above the door and it states 13 seated, 9 standing and 1 wheelchair. Do tip-ups not count as seating?

All in all, it's not a bad service. The buses are not grim, quite the opposite. Yes, there's a slight feeling of "patient transport" about them, but if you;re travelling at night and the driver is using the dimmer lighting, it's actually quite relaxed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seating capacity is somewhat confused. There are 13 normal saeats plus 4 tip-ups, making 17 seated passengers in total, 16 if there's a wheelchair and 9 standing. Look at the capacity label above the door and it states 13 seated, 9 standing and 1 wheelchair. Do tip-ups not count as seating?

Sounds to me like they are wrongly marked. They should have a second marking for when the tip-up seats are in use. Something like "13 seated, 9 standing and 1 wheelchair, or 16 seated and 7 standing".

 

[MrGrumpy]

Or is it a work-around for driver licencing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, that would require a maximum passenger capacity of 16.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can't use a D1 licence to drive for hire or reward.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't use a D1 licence to drive for hire or reward.

Yes, you can.

You can't use D1 (101), which is what you used to, until 1997, get "for free". You can pass a test for D1 without code 101, which is a PCV D1 licence, and is, because it's done on a minibus, easier to get than full D (most car drivers can drive a minibus with minimal training, and certainly near all van drivers). Many taxi company minibus drivers drive on that licence.

(Code 101 means "not for hire or reward")

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How old are the Solos that are being replaced?