Asked to remove retro railway attire

[Bertie the bus]

Or try and get a free ride, try and take advantage of unwitting passengers (can I see your ticket, sorry that's not valid, you need to pay me £x...), various security risks etc...

I'm obviously not saying the OP was doing anything nefarious, but I can see why staff wouldn't be too keen on random people wearing old uniform.

And anybody with a camera phone could use it for upskirting. I could use my house keys to gouge out somebody's eyes. What somebody could do with something is totally irrelevant. People should be judged on what they are doing and if the OP was doing absolutely nothing the dispatcher was out of order, and that is ignoring his threat to steal his jacket which in itself is probably a crime.

 

[farleigh]

How was the coat obtained? Technically you may be in possession of stolen goods / handling stolen goods, although doubtful anyone will come looking for it! However, I certainly wouldn’t be out and about in such clothing.

I suspect the uniform likely always belong to the rail operator, or it’s successor.

I suppose technically anybody who has ever bought anything from ebay might be in possession of stolen goods. I think the likelihood of the police attending, pursuing and the case meeting the threshold for prosecution is fairly remote.

 

[LowLevel]

There’s a guy at Sheffield station (EMR dispatcher) who does this. In cold weather, he’ll wear a thick wool-looking trench coat, and he wears a BR-style hat.

Every time I see him i think he does look bloody good in it though.

Believe it or not those items are both Stagecoach East Midlands Trains standard issue from 2008 onwards - the wool overcoat for station staff and revenue protection officers and the peaked cap for any male staff member who wanted one, there was also female equivalent bowler. I liked my wool overcoat but sadly it was many sizes too big for me after I lost a load of weight so I got rid some years ago.

As EMR are yet to introduce their own uniform they're still current items though they are no longer available for new issue.

I suppose technically anybody who has ever bought anything from ebay might be in possession of stolen goods. I think the likelihood of the police attending, pursuing and the case meeting the threshold for prosecution is fairly remote.

BTP have been known to turn up if the uniform is at least vaguely current. We regularly receive threats of the consequences if we are caught giving away or selling old uniform.

 

[Aictos]

I once stumbled into Waitrose, wearing my England cricket replica shirt sponsored by ....Waitrose! And yes, I was approached by a shopper for advice! So I could understand that wearing a Virgin coat could cause problems. It is also possible a less scrupilous person wearing such a coat could try to despatch a train.

(Mind you, I've also been asked for advice in a supermarket whilst I was wearing my work suit. Don't you expect to see shoppers wearing their work attire in a supermarket?!)

I went into Tescos once on an night shift wearing the uniform of my then TOC and was mistaken by a shopper as someone who worked there despite the uniforms looking very different!

 

[tbtc]

And anybody with a camera phone could use it for upskirting. I could use my house keys to gouge out somebody's eyes. What somebody could do with something is totally irrelevant. People should be judged on what they are doing and if the OP was doing absolutely nothing the dispatcher was out of order, and that is ignoring his threat to steal his jacket which in itself is probably a crime.

I'd disagree

If you take the view that it's fine for people to impersonate members of railway staff then where do you draw the line?

Rail staff are trusted professionals, performing safety critical roles in some circumstances - are people on here saying that they are comfortable with anyone walking off the street in a TOC-branded jacket so that vulnerable passengers will trust them? (Note - I'm not accusing the OP of anything here - I've bought a couple of items of public transport branded clothing in the past although I don't I've worn them outside of the house - I think that the OP has raised an interesting question - I'm just trying to take the argument to a conclusion and see whether people are comfortable with it)

 

[Bertie the bus]

We've had this nonsense before about people impersonating rail staff. Some have even claimed it is a crime. Who says he was trying to impersonate rail staff or trying to gain any benefit from wearing a jacket? Maybe he likes it and it's handy to put his wallet in. Virgin gave away hundreds of their jackets to a charity after they lost the franchise so there are plenty legitimately in circulation.

 

[tbtc]

We've had this nonsense before about people impersonating rail staff. Some have even claimed it is a crime. Who says he was trying to impersonate rail staff or trying to gain any benefit from wearing a jacket? Maybe he likes it and it's handy to put his wallet in

I'm not casting any aspersions on the OP - I think they've raised an interesting point - I'm asking where you'd draw the line, since you seem happy for anyone to walk around train stations dressed like a railway professional who the public rely upon?

I can certainly see why anyone at a TOC would be uneasy with people wandering around like that - platform staff have got a tough enough job as it is (dealing with enquiries, constantly changing information regarding delays and platform alternations, potential crimes, suicide risks etc) - they don't have time to deal with members of the cosplay community to ascertain whether they are pretending to be trusted professionals or just wearing a TOC jacket because it's padded and warm?

 

[Bertie the bus]

I draw the line where the law draws the line. Impersonating a police officer or a doctor. Again you use the word impersonating in relation to the OP. Just wearing a coat isn't impersonating anybody and I know this is a railway forum but your description of rail staff being ultra respected, trusted, upstanding pillars of the community who mere mortals can only dream of being their equals is laying it on a bit thick.

 

[Journeyman]

It seems pretty clear to me there's scope for confusion here, and that's the issue. Virgin lost the CrossCountry franchise in 2007, but loads of people think they still run it.

 

[BluePenguin]

I have come across several instances of enthusiasts in the past who wore older rail clothing or hi-vis purely to live out a fantasy of being employed by the railway and hoping people will ask them for help. I'm not suggesting this was your intention but if staff feel that you may be interfering in any way with their operations then they can ask you to take it off.

Many YouTube pranksters do this every day in various shops, pubs, restaurants, theme parks and train stations.

 

[Vespa]

Many years ago I went to Crewe a few times in my uniform which is not a railway company brand by any measure, yet I'm often mistaken for railway staff.

Some uniforms do look very similar.

 

[Kilopylae]

It seems pretty clear to me there's scope for confusion here, and that's the issue. Virgin lost the CrossCountry franchise in 2007, but loads of people think they still run it.

Most people I know refer to Voyagers as "Virgin Trains", e.g. "the Great Western was cancelled so we had to take a Virgin train from Plymouth to Exeter"

 

[Journeyman]

Most people I know refer to Voyagers as "Virgin Trains", e.g. "the Great Western was cancelled so we had to take a Virgin train from Plymouth to Exeter"

Exactly, and that's precisely why someone wearing a Virgin jacket could be mistaken for staff, and look like that's what they might be trying to do.

 

[ClagLover]

I have come across several instances of enthusiasts in the past who wore older rail clothing or hi-vis purely to live out a fantasy of being employed by the railway and hoping people will ask them for help. I'm not suggesting this was your intention but if staff feel that you may be interfering in any way with their operations then they can ask you to take it off.

My brother in law got a talking to at the ELR once for wearing a yellow high viz jacket. The staff told him it was “tantamount to a green signal”.

 

[D6130]

My brother in law got a talking to at the ELR once for wearing a yellow high viz jacket. The staff told him it was “tantamount to a green signal”.

Really? The person who gave him the talking to couldn't have been safety-critical staff, because they would have failed the colour blindness test!

 

[ClagLover]

Really? The person who gave him the talking to couldn't have been safety-critical staff, because they would have failed the colour blindness test!

I thought the same. It was at the 2019 Autumn Steam Gala and they were very insistent about it. And that was word for word what they said. I can see him not being able to wear it for other reasons but the reason the fella gave seemed strange.

 

[bramling]

I thought the same. It was at the 2019 Autumn Steam Gala and they were very insistent about it. And that was word for word what they said. I can see him not being able to wear it for other reasons but the reason the fella gave seemed strange.

A strange reason for sure.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I was at doncaster station just today, wearing a (very) old Virgin Trains jacket.

Just one question:- Why?!

Still haven't seen a cogent explanation from the OP or indeed anyone else as to why wearing an old staff uniform at a busy station would be a good idea.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Generally speaking, throughout my 37 year railway career, I've found that the older the item of uniform clothing, the better quality, the harder-wearing and the warmer it would be.

Well things were made to last years ago, It was a long overcoat down to the ankles. I did not realise station staff were able to wear old type uniforms.

 

[TPO]

Just one question:- Why?!

Makes them feel important maybe?

The purpose of uniform clothing is to enable staff of that organisation to be identified. The wearing of that uniform by someone not entitled to wear it is self evidently misleading even if there is no explicit intent to mislead.

The realities and practicalities of rebrands / new operators inevitably means that "non current" uniform will continue to be worn by members of staff going about their duties for a period of time. Wearing of "non current" uniform by someone to whom it was not issued legitimately by that organisation can only serve to confuse and possibly deceive.

Sorry if this seems harsh but wearing it is asking for trouble.

Incidentally I have often thought that the wearing of mainline toc (and similar) high viz on heritage railways can also serve to confuse and i am surprised that heritage railways permit this to happen.

I've seen on quite a few Heritage lines volunteer staff who have ex-mainline kit and seems to have some sort of cache. Can't think why. Irony is that new rail-spec orange hi-vis (orange but no logos unless you as a company put your own logo on) is very cheap, and thanks to Network Rail's insistence on a minimum standard of kit for their contractors, the quality is very good for the money even compared with a few years ago.

The last thing I ever want to do is wear my work hi-vis if I'm on a station, at the end of a long night shift on site there's nothing worse than having irate passengers ranting at me because the first train of the morning is late (Yes I know you need to get to work, I want to get home just as much), having to dig out the plastic smile and be polite.

I suppose, technically, that although issued to staff the uniform remains the property of the TOC. When we've had new uniforms, we've been asked to return our old one - knowing how protective of their brand Virgin are, I'd be surprised if they hadn't required the old Virgin-branded coats back.

So if someone took that jacket, sold it online (without consent of the owner), then depending how you look at it that could meet the threshold for theft. And if you then bought it, legally the original owner still has a right over it. Obviously it's not clear who the original owner is now the TOC doesn't exist, and they might not care anyway, but wearing it around a station might not be the best idea.

Generally, rail companies do require their logoed kit back- security reasons. Mostly they are quite insistent at getting it back too. Problem with getting all the hi-vis back in is that so much is issued- it gets dirty and the "hand one in to get a new one" approach only works with fixed depots- so some inevitably ends up on the second hand market, there's always the odd rail staff member who recognises the potential value of stuff to an "enthusiast" when sold on a well-known auction site.

I have worked for various rail organisations over the years with a variety of logos, and generally platform staff don't bat an eyelid on the odd occasion I have had no option but to travel to/from work with my hivis jacket on. Maybe something didn't "look quite right" for the OP to be challenged?

TPO

 

[bramling]

Well things were made to last years ago, It was a long overcoat down to the ankles. I did not realise station staff were able to wear old type uniforms.

In most cases staff aren’t really meant to be wearing old uniform. However it depends on how much the local management care.

No doubt some places will take the view that as long as staff are smart (and complying with safety rules) then there’s no issue if what they’re wearing isn’t quite to standard. Especially as it’s often the case that old uniform is smarter and better quality.

Two points
(1) why anyone would *want* to look like staff is beyond me, it’s asking for issues during disruption
(2) the security argument is a bit of a red herring, as it is the person’s staff pass which counts, not the uniform. It is still undesirable though.

 

[zwk500]

(2) the security argument is a bit of a red herring, as it is the person’s staff pass which counts, not the uniform. It is still undesirable though.

It's not entirely a red herring, because they could cause reputational damage to the TOC impacted if a passenger made the misunderstanding and paid money/took advice they shouldn't have. Even if it's entirely the passenger's fault. Most everyday passengers won't look beyond a logoed item of uniform to challenge for an ID badge, especially if they're in the rather large section of passengers that haven't kept fully on top of Franchise changes. Of course, if attempted on board a train then an overcoat would draw some suspicion and the actual member of staff on board would presumably notice it rather quickly.
However I do think the attempted despatch is a non-issue as Staff would recognise old uniform, be aware of the proper procedure and be aware of locations with despatching staff so could quite quickly identify an imposter, especially if they don't have the 'bat' (or whatever the name is) to give the white light.

 

[Master29]

Hi guys, much appreciated for the kind replies. All information is appreciated and the other perspectives are welcomed. I've had no trouble in the past, I've had this jacket for some time now and not ran into any trouble. As only a single piece of railway attire, not one person has ever mistaken me for TOC staff, and I've boarded several LNER trains since and had zero trouble with it.

And - all issues with confusion aside - surely I cannot be removed from a station for an item of clothing that is neither vulgar nor in appropriate? I'm causing no disruption on any form. And I've removed the jacket regardless

But as already put to you why would you even want to do such a thing. If for memorabilia purposes I could understand you wanting to collect this item but not in a working environment where the company in question have only fairly recently lost their franchise. I rather think you are asking for trouble.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think it would be fairly obvious that wearing a uniform item from a recently deposed franchise on the same station where the franchise operated would cause a problem eventually.

 

[43066]

Hey all,
I was at doncaster station just today, wearing a (very) old Virgin Trains jacket. I was told by a dispatcher to remove the coat immediately, lest I have it confiscated. This is apparently due to the fact that it is "private property" and cannot be worn a train station due to its TOC relations.

The TOC it belongs to ceased trading 18 months ago - is the dispatcher within his right to do this? I wasn't impersonating staff or anything.


Random detail that may be useful - I acquired this jacket third party through eBay

Yes they absolutely were within their rights.

I will echo what others have said and must ask what your motivation is for wearing heritage uniform on railway property? It’s completely inappropriate and, as you have seen, will go down like a lead balloon with staff for obvious reasons given how security conscious the railway is.

If you did not have a ticket for travel, you could be required to leave the station, by way of the withdrawal of your implied licence to be on private property.

If you did have a ticket for travel (in the reasonably near future), then you had a contractual right to be on the station which cannot be unilaterally abrogated. I am not aware of any terms of the contract, Railway byelaws, etc. prohibiting the wearing of clothing bearing insignia of defunct (or even current) TOCs. Naturally, in the interest of good manners one might wish to comply with a reasonable and polite request.

Having a contractual right to travel doesn’t change the fact that remaining on railway premises after being asked to leave will lie likely constitute a criminal offence (railway trespass). The correct approach if asked to leave is to obey and then take it up with the TOC afterwards (of course an even better approach is to not act in a manner which causes one to be asked to leave in the first place!).

 

[L401CJF]

There was a young guy in his late 20s I'd say who used to frequent the old Chester bus exchange (literally every day) wearing a current issue Stagecoach fleece, or an Arriva fleece.

He was a right nuisance acting as an inspector complete with clipboard, would often harass passengers and would try and tell drivers were to park, and if they left late would go over and tell them off/tell them they're late etc!

In the end I believe he got banned from the bus exchange. I don't go that way often so not sure if he still lurks around the new interchange.

I fully understand the issue with non employees wearing bus/rail uniform whether new or old issue around buses/trains.

And yes I do collect the odd item of old uniform but I don't wear it in public- except for my companies old issue uniform which I occasionally wear to work, as it looks smarter.

 

[Efini92]

I once saw a Rail manager going around Manchester Victoria with a long overcoat on in 2000. It was from the 50s and said station manager, I thought it was odd to wear it.

They buried him in that overcoat.

 

[LondonExile]

I suppose technically anybody who has ever bought anything from ebay might be in possession of stolen goods. I think the likelihood of the police attending, pursuing and the case meeting the threshold for prosecution is fairly remote.

The difference here is it is possible for it to be absolutely known that there were only two legitimate owners (the manufacturer of the jacket and Virgin Trains), and thus any private sales are unlawful.

This would be unlikely to lead to the OP being prosecuted - but it could change matters with regards to the threat of confiscation.

Handling Stolen Goods requires that you know or suspect that the goods are stolen. Once informed by railway staff that they have never been made available for sale - the OP is likely to be technically committing this offence (whether prosecuted for it or not).

Theft requires dishonest intent. Removing the goods from the OP's possession with the intention to hand them over to say the BTP isn't likely to be seen to be dishonest.

Ultimately - if Virgin Trains never sold these items legitimately, the OP does not have good title to them.

 

[Watershed]

Handling Stolen Goods requires that you know or suspect that the goods are stolen. Once informed by railway staff that they have never been made available for sale - the OP is likely to be technically committing this offence (whether prosecuted for it or not).

I highly doubt that the staff member in question can be sure the jackets were never transferred out of VT's ownership. As stated above, some jackets were donated to charity (and were thus presumably sold on to the public).

The ownership of the jacket really is a red herring here.

 

[Titfield]

I highly doubt that the staff member in question can be sure the jackets were never transferred out of VT's ownership. As stated above, some jackets were donated to charity (and were thus presumably sold on to the public).

The ownership of the jacket really is a red herring here.

Yes I agree the ownership is not the issue here.

The point is that someone is wearing a uniform or part of a uniform at a location where wearing that uniform may mislead or deceive members of the general public and possibly deceive or mislead staff also working at that location.

Whilst there may be no intent to mislead or deceive, the very wearing of that uniform may mislead or deceive.

Arguments about it being non current uniform or from an undertaking no longer operating are imho irrelevant. The fact is that wearing such items may mislead or deceive.

In my experience when uniforms have been donated to charity they have had all branding / titling removed so as to avoid this sort of issue arising.