Asking about Penalty Notice, I need advice!

[johnsmith12345]

Hi all, I originally posted this on reddit and they told me to come here. Today I received an unpaid fair notice for 59.80 for not buying a ticket for 2 stops. I asked the woman to buy a ticket on the train- something I have done many times if I have forgotten to buy a ticket and which every time they have been fine with and let me buy one. She was immediately begrudging and refused to let me buy one and issued me with a £50 fine.

I was wondering about the actions I can take with this and if anyone has been in the same position. I have no issue in paying even though it is incredibly steep, but I was wondering when it will come through on their system as it is not letting me pay online as of yet, when this happened earlier this afternoon (26/02/24). In addition, I'd like to know about the methods of communication that they will send following this, will I at any point receive a letter in the mail or an email? I really wouldn't want a passive-aggressive letter coming through saying 'I should think about my actions'- a phrase the ticket person kept repeating to me in almost a hurtful way.

I'm quite stressed about this as it has never happened before so any comments would help with my mental greatly.

Any advice or help answering my questions would be appreciated- thanks!

 

[jfollows]

Welcome to the forum.

Please read https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/please-read-before-posting-in-disputes-prosecutions.77759/

We need more details to help you, where was this, when?

Know that it is an offence to board a train without a valid ticket, unless it was impossible to buy a ticket at the origin station. In which case a Penalty Fare might be justified.

With more information, including a copy of any paperwork you have, we should be able to give you good advice.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all, I originally posted this on reddit and they told me to come here. Today I received an unpaid fair notice for 59.80 for not buying a ticket for 2 stops. I asked the woman to buy a ticket on the train- something I have done many times if I have forgotten to buy a ticket and which every time they have been fine with and let me buy one. She was immediately begrudging and refused to let me buy one and issued me with a £50 fine.

I was wondering about the actions I can take with this and if anyone has been in the same position. I have no issue in paying even though it is incredibly steep, but I was wondering when it will come through on their system as it is not letting me pay online as of yet, when this happened earlier this afternoon (26/02/24). In addition, I'd like to know about the methods of communication that they will send following this, will I at any point receive a letter in the mail or an email? I really wouldn't want a passive-aggressive letter coming through saying 'I should think about my actions'- a phrase the ticket person kept repeating to me in almost a hurtful way.

I'm quite stressed about this as it has never happened before so any comments would help with my mental greatly.

Any advice or help answering my questions would be appreciated- thanks!

An unpaid fare notice and a Penalty Fare are different things with different consequences. Can you clarify what was involved.

If you can upload any paperwork/ tickets with personal details removed it will help people answer your questions and give you good advice on the options available to you.

 

[johnsmith12345]

Welcome to the forum.

Please read https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/please-read-before-posting-in-disputes-prosecutions.77759/

We need more details to help you, where was this, when?

Know that it is an offence to board a train without a valid ticket, unless it was impossible to buy a ticket at the origin station. In which case a Penalty Fare might be justified.

With more information, including a copy of any paperwork you have, we should be able to give you good advice.

Hi, I just joined the forum as I can't get this out of my head. It was from Oldfield Park to Filton Abbey Wood, so 1 stop then a changeover at Bristol Temple Meads to Filton. I'm aware that it was an offence and completely my misjudgement as a broke student- but this is the first time I has done this and have received a £59 penalty fare notice. The encounter went as such, I said oh I forgot to get one is it alright if I buy one from you? To which she responded why didn't you use the machines at the station (Oldfield) and I responded calmly I didn't know they had them (they have like 2 which are dirty and hardly used.) I was nervous and stumbling over my words which deffently didn't help but I said, when this has happened on occasion in the past I have bought a ticket from the conductor and then showed her my trainline 16-25 railcard. She then said it seemed to her that I was attempting to ride for free and what would happen if a conductor didn't walk by and I said well fair point sorry I genuinely forgot. She then has handed me the notice, which is fair but I'm just enquiring about the general process. I have attempted to pay online however it doesn't seem to say the notice exists yet and doesn't let me. I just received another response on reddit saying I could be prosecuted even if I am willing to pay the fine and be done with it? I was wondering what communication they would send about this whether that be by letter or email. Hope this helps.

 

[johnsmith12345]

Here is the notice.

 

[jfollows]

There’s no open ticket office at Oldfield Park but there are ticket machines, according to https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/oldfield-park/

Rail conditions of travel at https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf state:

Your Requirement to Have a Valid Ticket to Travel
INFORMATION: In order to be valid, some Tickets must be activated or
endorsed with a date of travel before you board a train. This is made clear in
the terms & conditions of those Tickets.
‘Ticket’ includes a validated contactless payment card where accepted. The
‘Ticket’ definition in Appendix B gives more information.

6.1 You must hold a valid Ticket or authority to travel before you board a train where there was
the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:

6.1.1 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a
Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or a self-service Ticket machine
is not in working order, or will not accept your only available method of payment
(card or cash); and where notices indicate that Penalty Fares may apply from
that station, you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel
issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for
more information about Penalty Fares; or

6.1.2 The station is staffed, and you are specifically permitted to board a train service
by an authorised member of staff, or you have received a written notice or heard
an audible announcement to this effect; or

6.1.3 At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a
Ticket, because

6.1.3.1 the Ticket office is closed; or

6.1.3.2 a self-service Ticket machine is not in working order, or will not
accept your preferred method of payment (card or cash); or

6.1.3.3 You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the
station you are departing from are not accessible to you.

In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate
Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same
as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.

 

[alholmes]

Did Oldfield Park have a working ticket machine or an open ticket office, where you could have purchased a ticket before starting your journey? If it did, then the Penalty Fare is the correct way it should be dealt with, and you should pay it within 21 days.

As long as it’s paid, then there will be no further follow-up. It will have been dealt with.

 

[johnsmith12345]

Hi guys, really appreciate the help. I assume she thought I deliberately didn't buy one on trainline when I showed her my railcard when she was asking me for my information, if I check tomorrow will I be able to pay online and will it send me any incident or follow up letters or anything? I have tried typing it into the pay the penalties GWR online payment page but it can't find it and she did mention something about her needing to log it before being put on the system?

 

[alholmes]

Wait 24 hours for it to be loaded to the system. Then as long as you pay there will be no follow-up or further repercussions. Just relax, but remember in future it’s important to buy your ticket before you board the train

 

[johnsmith12345]

Wait 24 hours for it to be loaded to the system. Then as long as you pay there will be no follow-up or further repercussions. Just relax, but remember in future it’s important to buy your ticket before you board the train

Okay thank you so much! I've just read some horror stories online about prosecutions and such and just overdramatised it a bit. Thanks, I will check it again tomorrow- I've spent the last 2 hours trying to find advice whilst trying to pay it online xD

 

[alholmes]

Okay thank you so much! I've just read some horror stories online about prosecutions and such and just overdramatised it a bit. Thanks, I will check it again tomorrow- I've spent the last 2 hours trying to find advice whilst trying to pay it online xD

There’s plenty of horror stories online, including this forum, but you’re lucky - they’ve issued you a penalty fare notice which is the right thing for this kind of thing. Pay within 21 days and it’s completely dealt with. The horror stories tend to be related to short-faring or use of wrong railcard discount - can still often be resolved without prosecution, but require more effort and more money.

 

[185143]

Shouldn't the "amount owed" be shown at £109.80, given the £50 Penalty Fare is the rate offered to people who pay promptly? Certainly all Penalty Fare publicity is "£100 plus the fare."

From looking at other Penalty Fare Notices issued by other TOCs, they list the amount as (for example) £115.80, reduced to £65.80 if paid within 21 days from the day after the notice is issued. The attached notice just mentions "21 days".

Others on here will be far more knowledgeable than me wether the notice is in fact compliant with the regulations or not.

 

[John R]

Okay thank you so much! I've just read some horror stories online about prosecutions and such and just overdramatised it a bit. Thanks, I will check it again tomorrow- I've spent the last 2 hours trying to find advice whilst trying to pay it online xD

As others have noted, so long as you pay when able, that will be the end of the matter. But if you come to their attention again for a similar incident, you may find that instead of being offered a PF, you are referred for prosecution, and then you will be into the situation that you don't want to get into. Even if it would probably be resolved without prosecution, it would be much more expensive than a second PF. So to be clear, if you don't buy the ticket at the machine, absolutely make sure you have bought it online and the transaction has gone through before you set foot on a train. Their machines will tell if you buy after boarding, and you will be picked up for that, as it isn't allowed.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

You must be in possession of a ticket for your journey when you board the train if there are ticket issuing facilities, that accept your chosen method of payment, at the station where you start your journey. However harsh it sounds, you commit a criminal offence if you do not comply with this.

GWR could send the case to the Magistrates Court but instead of this have decided to charge you a Penalty Fare, which although it probably doesn't feel like it, is actually a good outcome in the circumstances.

I recommend paying the Penalty Fare within the 21-day period to benefit from the reduced rate. There's nothing stopping you from appealing, although givent he circumstances I wouldn't expect an appeal to succeed, but it's worth noting that the clock stops on the 21 days while the appeal is considered. So if money is tight then you can stretch out the 21 days by appealing but do be sure to pay the penalty fare promptly if the appeal is rejected.

There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty fare is invalid, normally relating to the signage at the station where you started your journey not compling with the Penalty Fare Regulations but this is a specialist area and I'll leave it to other forum members to advise.

 

[RailsNetwork]

Shouldn't the "amount owed" be shown at £109.80, given the £50 Penalty Fare is the rate offered to people who pay promptly? Certainly all Penalty Fare publicity is "£100 plus the fare."

From looking at other Penalty Fare Notices issued by other TOCs, they list the amount as (for example) £115.80, reduced to £65.80 if paid within 21 days from the day after the notice is issued. The attached notice just mentions "21 days".

Others on here will be far more knowledgeable than me wether the notice is in fact compliant with the regulations or not.

GWR's penalty fare notices (both paper versions & ones printed on a mobile ticket machine alike this one) always go for the discounted rate first, why they do it differently I've no idea - to make the pill easier to swallow perhaps? Irregardless, the increased rate of £100 is stated on the slip & is usually also verbally explained.

 

[island]

From the particulars on the penalty fare notice, I am assuming the passenger travelled on the 10:30 London Paddington to Weston-Super-Mare, which yesterday departed Oldfield Park at 12:11 (20 minutes behind schedule).

If this is correct, the penalty fare notice is invalid.

This is because it has been issued on-train with the amount based on a destination on which the train does not call.

The penalty fare should have been issued to Bristol Temple Meads, which would have been for the amount of £59.40.

Inspectors have no power to issue a penalty fare based on a journey to a station at which the train does not call, even if the passenger asks for this.

The penalty fare notice is non-compliant with regulations 5 and 9 of the Railways Penalty Fares Regulations 2018. An appeal against it must be allowed if the person handling the appeal is competent.

The £9.80 fare for the journey made remains payable.

 

[John Palmer]

The other possibility is that the OP boarded the 2-car 1112 service from Salisbury-Temple Meads, which departed Oldfield Park at 12:17:15. Either way, @island's point is correct, as the penalty fare was issued to a station at which the service conveying the OP did not call. The proper outcome is for an appeal to succeed, leaving the OP liable to pay a £9.80 fare (as @island notes), which is the correct undiscounted fare for the intended Oldfield Park to Abbeywood journey.

Any such initial appeal should state that it is made on the ground set out in Regulation 16(3)(a) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, namely that 'the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations', and that the failure so to charge the PF took the form of a breach of the requirements of Regulation 5(5A) in that the destination station of Filton Abbeywood to which the penalty fare purported to authorise travel was not 'a station at which the train was due to make a scheduled call'. The appeal should also identify the service on which the PF was issued, to make it abundantly clear that it was not a service scheduled to call at Abbeywood.

 

[island]

Agreed, with the technical proviso that if the penalty fare was issued on the last-mentioned train, the appropriate point to which to issue it would have been Keynsham.

 

[John Palmer]

I'm surprised by the frequency of failures by railway operators to conform to the requirements of the regulations that is apparent from images of penalty fare notices uploaded to this board. I see nothing on the penalty fare notice image in this thread stating “the fact that the 21 days to pay the reduced amount of the penalty fare does not include any time on appeal”, as required by Regulation 5(2A)(a)(ii).

On the contrary, the notice contains a statement that legal proceedings may be brought against the recipient if the amount charged is not paid by a specified date falling 21 days after the date of the notice's issue, without qualification of this warning to reflect the fact that an appeal will have the effect of extending the period within which a reduction in the amount payable will remain available. Even if the notice did contain a statement satisfying the requirements of Regulation 5(2A)(a)(ii), the absence of such a qualification might render that statement nugatory because it would be implicitly contradicted by the 21 day payment deadline.

The apparent omission of a statement meeting Regulation 5(2A)(a)(ii)'s requirements would be another ground for saying that the penalty fare notice in this case was not charged in accordance with the Regulations' requirements (Regulation 16(3)(a)).

If the uploaded image is indicative of GWR's standard form of penalty fare notice it suggests that a large proportion of the Penalty Fare Notices issued by the company are non-compliant with the Regulations' requirements. I appreciate that correct wording of such notices may pose a problem for GWR due to the fact that many of its services have Welsh destinations and the requirement that a notice must contain the information set out in Regulation 5(2A)(a)(ii) applies only to information “in respect of England”, but that is a conundrum for GWR's lawyers to address.