ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

[VP185]

That’s a nonsense and you know it.

Why is it nonsense?

 

[YorkRailFan]

Intercity train operator Avanti has struck an overtime deal with drivers that could take their average annual pay to almost £100,000 as it seeks to improve service levels.

The operator of services on the west coast main line between London, Manchester and Glasgow has agreed to pay a flat £600 to work an extra shift on top of their standard four-day week. Previously, drivers received £125 for coming in on the extra day, plus an hourly rate on top.

Avanti’s offer was instantly accepted by Aslef general secretary Mick Whelan and breaks the deadlock in a long-running overtime row.


Drivers receive a £67,000-a-year salary for a typical four-day week. The new £600-a-day stipend will be funded by taxpayers and has been signed off by the Department for Transport.


TransPennine Express, the east-west line nationalised last year because of poor performance, is also understood to have agreed an overtime deal with drivers in what is known as a “rest day working” agreement.
The 12-month overtime settlement comes as Avanti continues to grapple with disruption and cancellations. Unofficial figures indicate that it cancelled 3,996 services and part-cancelled a further 2,327 over the 11 months to the start of March 2024. While lower than the previous year, the current cancellation rate is about three times that when the west coast main line was operated by Virgin Trains.

Whitehall sources said the new overtime deal was signed off by ministers to help reset industrial relations between Avanti and the Aslef union.
Avanti and other train operators have been trying to change working conditions, some of which have not been altered for decades. Rail minister Huw Merriman told the Commons on Thursday that one deal on working patterns was agreed with unions in 1997 and intended to end in 2002, yet it still remained. “Until we can make progress on restrictive contracts, we will not be able to make changes,” he said. “A government cannot break the contract — it is between the operator and the union.

“There are technical reasons why operators are not working and it comes back to the need to be able to manage their workforce and that’s why we need reforms.”

Avanti said: “We are pleased to reach agreement on rest day working … It will help ensure our services are more reliable and resilient while we continue training our drivers on our brand-new trains.”

Avanti train drivers on track for £100k pay in overtime deal

Plagued by cancelled services, the operator of the west coast main line strikes deal on ‘rest day working’ in bid to improve performance

www.thetimes.co.uk

Great news for ASLEF members! Looks like this happened during the meeting between Whelan and Merriman regarding Avanti.

 

[manmikey]

But visiting this site, you already know the reasons why. To reinforce it though you might remember a few years ago a rather serious global epidemic which throttled the world. It also buggered the railways to the extent that erstwhile PM John Major's model of rail privatisation was no longer tenable, resulting in franchising being ditched. The passenger railway is now run by DfT with TOCs acting in a puppet role.

So whatever beef you have about the passenger journey needs directing to the DfT who are funded by the treasury. The rail unions are seeking the best combination of workers T&Cs and salaries for their members, which differ widely from TOC to TOC. If the DfT are playing fast and loose with traincrew salaries and T&Cs, there needs to be someone to stand over it, but just consider the Clapham junction disaster and the subsequent recommendation by Anthony Hidden QC. They were to make the railway industry a safer place for the passenger so, would you really want to potentially weaken those recommendations and increase risks?

Excellent post...

I recommend reading "The Clapham Train Accident: Causes, Context and the Corporate Memory Challenge" by Greg Morse.

This book looks at The Clapham, Potters Bar & Hatfield crashes and how the changes in corporate structure, drive to reduce costs, reorganisation, loss of corporate memory, subcontracting safety critical works and an industry losing focus all contributed to those tragic disasters.
It looks at how Justice Hidden QCs report became the bases of the Ts&C's that safety critical workers in the Rail Industry now work under, the safety record since speaks for it's self.

For clarity:
Hidden recommendations are deeply embedded in our contract of employment (Ts&C's), daily work diagrams (produced by Train planning) & the daily & weekly rosters (Produced cooperatively by Union reps & Management)

We presently have a Government and DFT that is now deliberately attacking those Hidden based Ts&C's and that is why collectively drivers and their ASLEF representative are highly motivated to resist those attacks in this present dispute. Even after 5 years without a pay increase we still stand guard over those prescious Ts&C's not just for us today but for future colleagues and passengers.

The absolute priority for a train driver is safety over everything else, you mess with that and you have a fight on your hands. It's not for drivers to "grow the business" as a previous poster opined, no , that is for others in the industry, I and my colleagues will buy virtue of training, proffesional driving policies, Terms & Conditions and professional pride get you from A to B safely and circumstances permitting on time.


Anecdote...


"Hidden" is often heard on a daily basis within the Railway world it's part of the common venacular now;

Phrases such as these may be heard on a daily basis....

'I can't do that as I'm passed Hidden"
(Exceeding maximum turn length)

"I've covered your next bit as you'll need your Hidden"
(Late running train but break is required)

"I was late back last night and I've blown my Hidden, can you cover my first bit?"
(Preserving a minimum 12hr rest period between safety critical shifts)

 

[Class 170101]

You realise that traincrew leave is already quota-controlled and that overtime wouldn't generally be authorised to cover for ad hoc days beyond the quota? Ad hoc days are only granted at three days notice if sufficient spare cover exists.

Yes, I was reinforcing the point that train crew would lose out on extra people taking leave, that wouldn't last as individuals would get hacked off at being declined leave.

An overtime ban on GTR effectively shuts the railway in a usable manner. It causes greater grief than the strike days. Why on earth would the government voluntarily inflict this on themselves?

Thats only because available crews don't match train plan. The train plan would written such that only a basic service would be provided, eg Hitchin to Peterborough shuttle and may only be with one or two drivers over the whole day

 

[Snow1964]

BBC is reporting Avanti has cut a deal with ASLEF on overtime, coming in on 29th March

Train drivers at Avanti West Coast will see their fee for an overtime shift increase by 380% following a deal between the company and union Aslef.
Avanti said it hoped offering more attractive terms to its drivers to work extra shifts would make its services "more reliable and resilient".
The company has faced heavy criticism in recent years over cancellations, delays and poor service.
Drivers will get £600 for a shift, up from £125, in addition to their salary.
The deal was struck on Thursday and will come into force on 29 March, remaining in place for 12 months, the BBC has been told.
The Sunday Times, which first reported the story, suggested some drivers could enjoy a salary of up to £100,000 a year, but neither Aslef nor Avanti were able to confirm these figures.
Last year Avanti was offered a new contract for the West Coast Main Line, which runs between London Euston and Glasgow Central, with branches to Birmingham, North Wales, Liverpool, Manchester and Edinburgh.
A spokesperson for Avanti said the deal would "help ensure our services are more reliable and resilient over time for our customers, while ensuring we continue training our drivers on our brand-new trains".
But the company has faced criticism over its performance, with calls for its contract to be scrapped last week.

• Leaders demand Avanti lose West Coast franchise

Aslef general secretary Mick Whelan said Avanti did not employ enough drivers to offer the service it advertises.
"The company approached us with an offer and we accepted," he added.

Avanti to pay train drivers £600 a shift for overtime

West Coast Main Line drivers to receive £600 for an overtime shift after company strikes deal with union.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[dk1]

BBC is reporting Avanti has cut a deal with ASLEF on overtime

Avanti to pay train drivers £600 a shift for overtime

West Coast Main Line drivers to receive £600 for an overtime shift after company strikes deal with union.

www.bbc.co.uk

This was under discussion a few weeks back. Rest Day Working agreement renewed by ASLEF.

 

[Class 317]

That's reminded me of another option the DFT and TOC's could use to try to break the strikes that has been used by some companies in other industrial disputes. This would be to pay a bonus to anyone that breaks the strike and agrees to come into work. Not condoning this as a tactic, suggesting it's necessarily a good idea or supporting it in anyway but merely highlighting that it is one option I missed earlier that could potentially be used as another option by them.

Turning back to resolving the dispute via a no strings offer from Labour, this becomes more and more politically difficult the more years any deal has to cover. The higher the % involved creates political difficulties for Labour. It's going to take some very good packaging, spin and politics to not create an easy win for the conservatives and their aligned press in being able to present it as a disproportionate deal costing the tax payer a fortune. Again not necessarily opinion but can see how this would be easy to claim.

 

[DJP78]

It's going to take some very good packaging, spin and politics to not create an easy win for the conservatives and their aligned press in being able to present it as a disproportionate deal costing the tax payer a fortune.

This is true. I think this might explain why the Tories seem content to play this dispute out beyond a GE in which they look likely to be placed into opposition. I think the Tories have laid down a clear trap for Labour. "We stood up to the union barons and those greedy train drivers" tripe. "Labour have capitulated"

All the Tories have to do is sit down and thrash out a deal. I'm not suggesting that is going to be easy btw, but every single dispute has always been resolved through eventual dialogue. The sooner this happens, the better. It's quite clear they have no intention of resolving anything.

What Labour need to do, imo, and assuming they win power, is look into the huge dividends that have been taking flight from the railways, some of the enormous six figure salaries floating about at the senior level of railway management, inter-loan arrangements between the financial backers and rolling stock leasing and procurement rates which have just seen huge profit surges for the rolling stock companies.

ASLEF (and RMT) are quite right to point out that the big hitters on the railway have seen their profits & dividends protected through Covid and throughout the recovery, whilst railway workers salaries have stalled. It's another example of the little people (aka ASLEF / RMT members) being targeted, whilst the elite, sail off into the sunset with their millions.

I hope Labour focus on this, and can battle the media outlets, to explain to the public why a pay-rise and sensible T's & C's are essential for the safe and effective running of the railways

 

[lxfe_mxtterz]

Apologies if has been asked already, but does anybody know what kind of service Avanti West Coast will be operating on 8th April?

I'm assuming normal timetable but with short-notice cancellations due to the overtime ban? Is a day trip from London to Birmingham likely to be doable?

 

[High Dyke]

As a Union man from outside the industry, the ASLEF strike now has very little impact on the travelling public. TOCs have got contingencies worked up with more staff trained.

Indeed. A number of operators run no service on ASLEF strike days.

Image shows screenshot from West Midlands Trains about strike day train services. Other operators are similar or run a severely reduced service.

 

[infobleep]

Nothing. However they also know they are on their way out, so won't have to deal with it soon. ASLEF don't have that same privilege, they will have to negotiate with a Labour government that might have PTSD after seeing the state of the country's finances and may not be able to offer a quick win. Especially as the backdating claim will be becoming a rather large figure to come out of one year's budget.

So there's no harm in testing the waters to see if at least the pay dispute for previous years can be wound up.


That's just my point, Labour isn't just leaning on the right wing press, they need some of the right leaning voters to cross over to nail down a new government. So appearing to side with the unions may not be an option pre or post election.

As they believe this government are on the way out, might as well wait then and keep issuing ballots on strike action every 6 months as required by law.

If this government is weak, perhaps ASLEF has the upper hand.

Yes, they don't know what Labour will do, so maybe they should hold out to give Labour a chance.

If it's no worse than this, what have they lost? I mean the union and members and not the public here.

This government can change their mind and if they don't, no ballot of the members will change anything on the deal on offer as they will reject it.

The government have set an exact stipulation for the offer and any future negotiations. ASLEF have a rule that they cannot take an executive decision back to the members. Neither side will budge, both are as bad as each other quite frankly.

But this is isn't about blaming anyone, well at least not from my point of view. Its about trying to find a way through it. ASLEF could, as I described above, at least shift the process on a bit. But they won't, and members on here seem to think this is the right way to go. Yet it is literally a free roll of the dice, your situation won't be any worse for taking the ballot, making that counter offer and seeing what they come back with. Seriously, what about that is so worrying that everyone pushes back against it?

Financially they would be worse off as they would still have to do a strike ballot.

If we have a general election in May, would this country be better off? Would the dispute be resolved sooner and that benefits everyone who relies on what the trains bring to the economy?

Will there be any underground, greater anglia or south Western railway trains running on the 8th? I'm going up to London for a few days and was hoping to go on the trains for a day

Where are you travelling from?

There will be some South Western Railway services between around 7:30 am and 6 pm if past strike day timetables are anything to go by.

Not sure about Greater Anglia or the tube services.

Could anyone kindly advise me if XC are likely to be offering any kind of service from/to Banbury on Friday 5th April (full strike day)?
Many thanks.

No idea but if you check the Recent Train Times Web site for the dates around the end of January, for Banbury to wherever you wish to go, you might find out. I forget wish dst back then they were on strike.

Apologies if has been asked already, but does anybody know what kind of service Avanti West Coast will be operating on 8th April?

I'm assuming normal timetable but with short-notice cancellations due to the overtime ban? Is a day trip from London to Birmingham likely to be doable?

Not sure. Maybe someone else knows.

 

[Wearsunscreen]

Yes, it is exactly the same staff doing the cleaning, filling the shelves, and being on the tills. Only the very largest stores have departmental roles nowadays and even then staff are expected to switch departments, with literally one minute's notice, as needed. It would not be unreasonable at all for train drivers to be sweeping platforms and acting in customer service roles when they are not required to drive a train.

The most out of touch thing I've seen so far in regards to the driver role.

Wrong.
TOC’s can negotiate whatever they want with the unions ( and many would have already done so ) but government does not want to sign off / pay for any agreements

Thameslink had an offer which was the same as the management roles had been offered which off the top of my head was around 9% - 11% with no strings, management roles accepted, the offer wasn't then put to drivers and effectively pulled.. The government came in and put a stop to it. This is the government.

 

[dk1]

The most out of touch thing I've seen so far in regards to the driver role.

I'm more astounded at the comparison with working in a supermarket. Makes a change from the NHS i suppose

 

[mikeb42]

Years ago early on in my career I worked (mostly in the UK) for a large far eastern multinational.

On several occasions when project cycles meant there was a lull in our usual work, they had all the younger staff* cleaning and clearing up in the labs and on the factory shop floor, plus doing painting and decorating. This was a normal part of the culture, partly to entrench the idea that getting too far up yourself wasn't part of the plan.

*Between 10 of us at that stage we had about 30 years of on-the-job training, 50 years experience, 25 STEM degrees including PhDs and a few were already Chartered Engineers and the like.

Meanwhile, I recently had cause to refer to a contract of employment for a more recent job which contains a clause which reads (approximately) "You will conduct whatever duties are deemed necessary by The Company to further its business interests and for which it considers you competent".

There's nothing particularly unusual in that, and that's for professions which require extremely high skill levels and many years of training on top of the highest academic requirements.

None of this means it makes any sense at all to have train drivers sweeping platforms, nor indeed doing anything other than driving trains for as much of their expensively remunerated time as possible. However, the ivory tower thing is notable.

 

[Wearsunscreen]

Years ago early on in my career I worked (mostly in the UK) for a large far eastern multinational.

On several occasions when project cycles meant there was a lull in our usual work, they had all the younger staff* cleaning and clearing up in the labs and on the factory shop floor, plus doing painting and decorating. This was a normal part of the culture, partly to entrench the idea that getting too far up yourself wasn't part of the plan.

*Between 10 of us at that stage we had about 30 years of on-the-job training, 50 years experience, 25 STEM degrees including PhDs and a few were already Chartered Engineers and the like.

Meanwhile, I recently had cause to refer to a contract of employment for a more recent job which contains a clause which reads (approximately) "You will conduct whatever duties are deemed necessary by The Company to further its business interests and for which it considers you competent".

There's nothing particularly unusual in that, and that's for professions which require extremely high skill levels and many years of training on top of the highest academic requirements.

None of this means it makes any sense at all to have train drivers sweeping platforms, nor indeed doing anything other than driving trains for as much of their expensively remunerated time as possible. However, the ivory tower thing is notable.

As a train driver their is no lull in our usual work, you're roster a turn and your time is spent driving trains or going to drive a train. The driver role is understaffed nationally and your response would be for drivers to sweep platforms.

Good use of money for a highly trained train driver. Give your head a wobble.

If there was a surplus of drivers and people sitting around then it would be a discussion although it's not been that way since privatisation. You simply do not know enough to comment on it.

 

[mikeb42]

As a train driver their is no lull in our usual work, you're roster a turn and your time is spent driving trains or going to drive a train. The driver role is understaffed nationally and your response would be for drivers to sweep platforms.

Good use of money for a highly trained train driver. Give your head a wobble.

If there was a surplus of drivers and people sitting around then it would be a discussion although it's not been that way since privatisation. You simply do not know enough to comment on it.

I don't see any way that "None of this means it makes any sense at all to have train drivers sweeping platforms, nor indeed doing anything other than driving trains for as much of their expensively remunerated time as possible" could possibly be made any clearer.

 

[Wyrleybart]

I'm more astounded at the comparison with working in a supermarket. Makes a change from the NHS i suppose

Me too.
The point is Avanti, like many other TOCs, do not have enough qualified drivers to run the timetabled service. Overlaid on top of this is the requirement to get a significant number of Avanti crew trained on the new Hitachi units.

Crew training generally involves releasing the trainees from their roster as well as instructors / assessors. This means that if you only release two trainees for five days of training, you also need to release one of two assessors / instructors, but this needs to happen on the days the candidates are rostered to be at work rather than rest days or annual leave. so this means having four gaps in the roster to train two people a week.

How many hundred AWC staff are there to train ?

So rather than talk of getting a "surplus" of AWC crew to do other jobs whilst not driving trains, irrespective of how uneconomical that is, you have actually have massive gaps of staff to cover for the training. But all of this keeps returning to a lack of sufficient staff to meet the needs of the timetable anyway - given the length of time it takes to train staff for the roles. This really needs an overview of the process of recruiting staff to the roles and tiomescales. So if "Harry"is looking a little "mature" shall we say perhaps their line manager needs to consider the recruitment and training cycle to replace "Harry" when the time comes for him to leave. Tend to be a minimum of eighteen months to have a "match fit" replacement for "Harry" these days.

 

[Wearsunscreen]

I don't see any way that "None of this means it makes any sense at all to have train drivers sweeping platforms, nor indeed doing anything other than driving trains for as much of their expensively remunerated time as possible" could possibly be made any clearer.

What are you blithering on about then

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would guess Labour would offer a no strings deal that would settle the dispute.

Have you a source for that?

 

[mikeb42]

What are you blithering on about then

No blithering. Blethering perhaps. Principles. Attitudes.

This dispute, like it or not, is a public issue. Not currently a particularly big one on the scale of issues facing the nation, but not trivial either. Public perception therefore matters, as nobody other than the public are picking up the tab for both the dispute and any resolution. Rail employees are currently de-facto public servants given the scale of direct subsidy the whole operation is consuming.

For clarity: It's not hard to see why the proposed T&C changes are wholly unacceptable. From the outside, they read as a political move by a govt who have designed them to be rejected.

 

[father_jack]

Me too.
The point is Avanti, like many other TOCs, do not have enough qualified drivers to run the timetabled service. Overlaid on top of this is the requirement to get a significant number of Avanti crew trained on the new Hitachi units.

Crew training generally involves releasing the trainees from their roster as well as instructors / assessors. This means that if you only release two trainees for five days of training, you also need to release one of two assessors / instructors, but this needs to happen on the days the candidates are rostered to be at work rather than rest days or annual leave. so this means having four gaps in the roster to train two people a week.

How many hundred AWC staff are there to train ?

So rather than talk of getting a "surplus" of AWC crew to do other jobs whilst not driving trains, irrespective of how uneconomical that is, you have actually have massive gaps of staff to cover for the training. But all of this keeps returning to a lack of sufficient staff to meet the needs of the timetable anyway - given the length of time it takes to train staff for the roles. This really needs an overview of the process of recruiting staff to the roles and tiomescales. So if "Harry"is looking a little "mature" shall we say perhaps their line manager needs to consider the recruitment and training cycle to replace "Harry" when the time comes for him to leave. Tend to be a minimum of eighteen months to have a "match fit" replacement for "Harry" these days.

And when "mature" "Harry" and "Paddy" and "Philly" and many more get their no strings raise and consequent back pay they'll be off !!!

The industry knew this a decade ago. Forget Covid, forget the strikes. The industry hasn't had the mens gonads to face up to it.

 

[dk1]

Here in well organised GA land we now have a ‘Qualified’ link for drivers that have passed out but still don’t have a place in the roster just yet. They are very strictly controlled a can only be used as a last resort after all FDW has been offered to all other drivers. They are however good for cut-outs

 

[DJP78]

I’m incredulous that there are people sufficiently ignorant of the drivers role to think we have spare time to undertake cleaning and other such duties.

“I know, let’s spend a fortune on training a driver, then offer value for money to the tax payer by having them undertake completely unrelated duties incommensurate with their skill-set, rather than have them have them out driving trains” …… can’t believe it’s necessary to lower the debate to this level

…… moving on

 

[baz962]

I’m incredulous that there are people sufficiently ignorant of the drivers role to think we have spare time to undertake cleaning and other such duties.

“I know, let’s spend a fortune on training a driver, then offer value for money to the tax payer by having them undertake completely unrelated duties incommensurate with their skill-set, rather than have them have them out driving trains” …… can’t believe it’s necessary to lower the debate to this level

…… moving on

And just playing devil's advocate here and I'm a driver. If you read the post above I can see why some non rail staff get angry. Qualified drivers that can't be used until after others have been offered overtime. Not exactly great use of a resource.

 

[dk1]

And just playing devil's advocate here and I'm a driver. If you read the post above I can see why some non rail staff get angry. Qualified drivers that can't be used until after others have been offered overtime. Not exactly great use of a resource.

It’s because they are over & above the agreed establishment. Shouldn’t take long to find them a place in the link as so many taking early retirement or job sharing. It’s just good housekeeping.

 

[baz962]

I wasn't really on about that. More that they sit spare when turns uncovered so others get RDW.

 

[chuff chuff]

I wasn't really on about that. More that they sit spare when turns uncovered so others get RDW.

Yeah as they are above the agreed compliment so really don't come into the equation,however I'm not a fan of new guys sitting about when they could be out practicing their new skills.

 

[dk1]

I wasn't really on about that. More that they sit spare when turns uncovered so others get RDW.

Which is why I explained that they are over & above the agreed establishment.

Yeah as they are above the agreed compliment so really don't come into the equation,however I'm not a fan of new guys sitting about when they could be out practicing their new skills.

Or as I also said, cutting us out

 

[Starmill]

And just playing devil's advocate here and I'm a driver. If you read the post above I can see why some non rail staff get angry. Qualified drivers that can't be used until after others have been offered overtime. Not exactly great use of a resource.

I think in general people are only on "floating" work like that for very short periods of time, unless something has gone seriously wrong and for example the company has messed up by offering too many contracts at one particular location. Even then there's often a lot of interest in a swap, and an awful lot of people are close to retirement etc.

 

[chuff chuff]

Which is why I explained that they are over & above the agreed establishment.



Or as I also said, cutting us out

I should of added that is usually here at least by the new drivers taking over a job and the booked driver sitting spare.