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ASLEF strikes W/c 6th May

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PLY2AYS

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As I understand it an offer was made in 2022, which was rejected by ASLEF members. RDG then revised the offer very slightly in 2023, which they asked to also be put to the members before any further negotiations would be held (this is actually not unusual in the public sector BTW). ASLEF decided they would reject it without taking a vote, and that is where things stand today. RDG / DfT won't budge on the vote caveat, and ASLEF won't budge on having a vote. Putting aside the whys and the wherefores of how its got to where it is, an offer still exists that is back-datable to 2022, yes?

Now it entirely possible that RDG / DfT knew that setting a vote caveat might be a sticking point for ASLEF given their rule that an executive decision cannot then be put to the membership, and so threw it in to paint ASLEF into a corner. In which case the union should have boxed a bit more clever. I remain convinced that having the members reject the 2023 revised offer would have given ASLEF the chance to broker a deal similar that got by RMT.

And the offer that was made, iirc, was a 1% lower offer in terms of pay than the previous one and certainly lower than the offer put to RMT. Plus all of the original destruction of Ts&Cs that the DfT and RDG were explicitly told would never be put to a vote.
So it was formally rejected. And as process goes, that offer can no longer be accepted, despite this spouting off in the press that the transport minister insists is the case. And when asked about why he and the union aren’t negotiating; he starts every response with “I don’t understand”

No Mark Harper, you do not.
 
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officewalla

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That’s a bit strong. They’re just people doing a job.

Five years of no payrise at all, I would say train drivers have probably earned one by now. If they had kept their powder dry until now and had gone to the RDG to ask for one, I can’t help but feel they would’ve been a lot more successful, and nobody would’ve lost any money. Just usual union bull in a china shop approach has cost them.

But surely after the inflation of the last few years they must be due one. Nobody is better off than in 2019 but there can’t be another group of people who’ve had literally nothing since then.
CPI since April 2019 until March 2024 is 23.6%. That means a real terms cut in drivers relative income of almost a quarter. A GWR driver for example would be paid £74 today if only inflation pay rises had been offered. Even taking 3 years of enforced pay freeze out as the country was paralysed, the CPI has risen by over 15%. It is plain as day that no deal is ever going to restore pay parity to 2019 levels and ASLEF is prolonging the dispute by peicemeal calling 1 day strikes and overtime bans for a week. The strategy needs to really challenge the current impasse and make it bite or start to own the narrative with suggestions of its own at the very least. The government all but owns the railway industry in England so should treat rail workers like every other public body and accept a reasonable no strings pay deal ( no reforms in NHS, CS, teaching, policing etc despite all of the above needing more reforms than the railways) and implement it immediately. I also think that 4% +4% for drivers is a non offer designed to be rejected but looks good in the media headlines.
 

mrcheek

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As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. The RDG and DfT are a bunch of dishonourable charlatans but it doesn't change the fact that no one cares about these strikes anymore and they are achieving nothing - people just shrug their shoulders and work around them. They are simply not going to re-open these negotiations until the risible offer is put to members (which rightly isn't going to happen). So the ASLEF EC either need to dramatically escalate the action which will obviously hit some members hard financially or wait until after the election. What we have at the moment is the worst of all worlds.
Einstein never said any such thing.

I once had a letter published on the subject!


"I found myself unable to read Irwin Stelzer’s article on COP26, due to my disbelief at his use of one of the most famous misquotes in history. It is simply false that Einstein ever said “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”.

The quote was popularised when spoken by a character in Rita May Brown’s novel Sudden Death (1983), though it was also used in a US anti-drug pamphlet around the same time.

But the likely origin of the concept is essentially a misunderstanding of a chapter in Jonathan Swift’s Gulliver’s Travels. Visiting the Grand Academy, in Lagado, in Balnibarbi, Gulliver is astonished to witness numerous bizarre experiments, including one in which the object is to extract sunbeams from cucumbers. The experiments are repeated over and over, but the “insanity” lies in the nature of the experiments, not that they are being repeated. In fact, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, is basic science."
 

infobleep

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As I understand it an offer was made in 2022, which was rejected by ASLEF members. RDG then revised the offer very slightly in 2023, which they asked to also be put to the members before any further negotiations would be held (this is actually not unusual in the public sector BTW). ASLEF decided they would reject it without taking a vote, and that is where things stand today. RDG / DfT won't budge on the vote caveat, and ASLEF won't budge on having a vote. Putting aside the whys and the wherefores of how its got to where it is, an offer still exists that is back-datable to 2022, yes?

Now it entirely possible that RDG / DfT knew that setting a vote caveat might be a sticking point for ASLEF given their rule that an executive decision cannot then be put to the membership, and so threw it in to paint ASLEF into a corner. In which case the union should have boxed a bit more clever. I remain convinced that having the members reject the 2023 revised offer would have given ASLEF the chance to broker a deal similar that got by RMT.
Did RMT remembers reject their last offer prior to accepting one?
 

Facing Back

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That’s wildly untrue. It was rejected near instantly. The transport secretary uses this line continually. Please don’t use his rhetoric considering he has forgotten the directions to attending negotiations for over a year now.
With great respect, as I understand it, the offer is still available to be accepted if ASLEF change their mind. I'm not suggesting that they will or that they should or commenting on the behaviour of either side. But as the offer can be accepted it is still technically "on the table". It is semantics but one the government will continue with I imaging. Aslef cannot unilaterally "take it off the table" as it is not their offer to remove.

I do not believe that they should be forced to put it to their members and I see the argument why not. However the last move was made by the government with their offer - not matter how unacceptable. In traditional negotiation practice I would expect something of a counter from ASLEF - and "No, try again" doesn't count as such. The RMT made such a move and it led to a different offer, even if that was very cleary a short term fix.
 

infobleep

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With great respect, as I understand it, the offer is still available to be accepted if ASLEF change their mind. I'm not suggesting that they will or that they should or commenting on the behaviour of either side. But as the offer can be accepted it is still technically "on the table". It is semantics but one the government will continue with I imaging. Aslef cannot unilaterally "take it off the table" as it is not their offer to remove.

I do not believe that they should be forced to put it to their members and I see the argument why not. However the last move was made by the government with their offer - not matter how unacceptable. In traditional negotiation practice I would expect something of a counter from ASLEF - and "No, try again" doesn't count as such. The RMT made such a move and it led to a different offer, even if that was very cleary a short term fix.
I heard on BBC 2's Politics Live today that Huw Merriman would be meeting Mick Lynch and someone else whose name escapes me.

Ignore my previous edit as I misremembered.
 

scouseyb123

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Mr Merriman said on the latest edition of the ‘Green Signals’ podcast that there are talks going on with ASLEF in the background? Can anyone shed more light on this?
 

12LDA28C

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Mr Merriman said on the latest edition of the ‘Green Signals’ podcast that there are talks going on with ASLEF in the background? Can anyone shed more light on this?

Really? I'd be surprised. ASLEF have mentioned nothing in regard to any discussions or negotiations taking place.
 

Killingworth

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Mr Merriman said on the latest edition of the ‘Green Signals’ podcast that there are talks going on with ASLEF in the background? Can anyone shed more light on this?
Listen to the podcast, he doesn't say they are, although it could also be said that he doesn't say they aren't. Best to keep quiet all round until something can be agreed. See;
 

Jericho

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As always, civil servants have briefed him to say lots without saying anything substantive but it's pretty clear, reading between the lines, there are some form of talks going on. Doesn't necessarily mean there will be a positive outcome and it's quite right that neither side gives a running commentary. We shall wait and see...
 

scouseyb123

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As always, civil servants have briefed him to say lots without saying anything substantive but it's pretty clear, reading between the lines, there are some form of talks going on. Doesn't necessarily mean there will be a positive outcome and it's quite right that neither side gives a running commentary. We shall wait and see...

I can only assume there’s some backchannel conversations going down. Or Huw is telling porkies.
 

beany

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We're all voting at the moment on whether to continue industrial action.So come the end of May,when yet another 6 monthly ballot results in over 90% of us voting to strike,will the public please stop asking why Aslef havnt put the 'offer' to its members.
 

12LDA28C

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As always, civil servants have briefed him to say lots without saying anything substantive but it's pretty clear, reading between the lines, there are some form of talks going on. Doesn't necessarily mean there will be a positive outcome and it's quite right that neither side gives a running commentary. We shall wait and see...

If this is true then it must be a very recent development. The latest ASLEF journal published only today states that the last meetings took place over a year ago with nothing since.
 

scotlass

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For what it's worth (probably none), as a union member of another large organisation who has had to fight for a decent pay rise and conditions, I do sympathise to an extent. As utterly frustrating as our negotiations have been at times, never has it crossed my mind as a health professional to walk out in strike.

But, as a member of the "travelling public" reliant on trains, I am absolutely done with all this. I don't actually care which side is to blame. Four very hard earned holidays have been disrupted since these strikes happened, a fifth possibly in June, and having spent this morning sorting out new reservations for elderly friends travelling from Scotland to the South Coast, on trains that have now been disrupted by the resulting overtime ban next week. Trains that they are going on for the first time in years, having had to give up flying, and requiring extensive passenger assistance to help them through the journey.
 

coxxy

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Its also the week of the local elections...

Not suggesting Huw is talking out of his backside to try and steer the narrative; but if he was, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.
 

Sly Old Fox

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I don’t think there are any talks taking place between Aslef and Huw Merriman. Mick Whelan has confirmed as much this evening on Twitter.
 

12LDA28C

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For what it's worth (probably none), as a union member of another large organisation who has had to fight for a decent pay rise and conditions, I do sympathise to an extent. As utterly frustrating as our negotiations have been at times, never has it crossed my mind as a health professional to walk out in strike.

But, as a member of the "travelling public" reliant on trains, I am absolutely done with all this. I don't actually care which side is to blame. Four very hard earned holidays have been disrupted since these strikes happened, a fifth possibly in June, and having spent this morning sorting out new reservations for elderly friends travelling from Scotland to the South Coast, on trains that have now been disrupted by the resulting overtime ban next week. Trains that they are going on for the first time in years, having had to give up flying, and requiring extensive passenger assistance to help them through the journey.

Then you can blame that squarely on TOCs not employing enough drivers meaning they have to rely on overtime and RDW to operate the published timetable. If sufficient drivers were employed an overtime ban would have zero effect.
 

whoosh

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I'm sure I read that any meetings taking place, or are about to, will be concerning 2024 pay deals at various TOCs - which will likely result in those becoming a dispute as well, as there won't be any agreement whilst 2022 and 2023 still haven't been resolved.
 

CyrusWuff

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I'm sure I read that any meetings taking place, or are about to, will be concerning 2024 pay deals at various TOCs - which will likely result in those becoming a dispute as well, as there won't be any agreement whilst 2022 and 2023 still haven't been resolved.
Current meetings are regarding the 2023 deal in most cases. 2024 talks have yet to start.
 

dk1

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Interesting development after yesterday. Here's hoping but my glass is still half empty with the RDG and its track record with the dispute so far,
 

whoosh

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Interesting development after yesterday. Here's hoping but my glass is still half empty with the RDG and its track record with the dispute so far,
Yeah, I'm highly suspicious. Like things we're looking up last year - ASLEF: "We just need a big YES vote to show our feelings"

The government WANTED a YES vote to make their Minimum Service Levels (taking away worker's rights) look reasonable.

And that's exactly what happened.

Now they can say they are offering an olive branch (also it isn't- it's a very vague 'maybe we'll have a chat sometime'), whilst action takes place next week.
 
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Sly Old Fox

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Maybe it’s like 1982, when BR had written out the redundancy notices for all their drivers and threatened to dispatch them unless aslef called off the flexible rostering strike, which they did.
 

greatkingrat

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It sounds like they are having talks about when to have talks about the talks for the pay deal!
 
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