ASLEF TfW and ScotRail Offer

[43066]

No DOO. Without going into too much detail, drivers and conductors will both still be involved in the process, but it's a change as until now drivers don't open or close doors on any TfW service.

If there's no conductor onboard then there's no passengers either.

Moving from fully guarded to driver open/close, albeit with a fully safety critical guard still on board, sounds similar to the deal on SWR.

It is a very significant thing to sell, to be fair, to the point where I’m quite surprised they went for it.

EDIT: rereading what you’ve written, I’ve possibly jumped the gun assuming it’s driver open/close, appreciate you might not able to say anymore as yet!

 

[GalaxyDog]

It sounds like driver open guard closes, or ten bells. Either way, it's better than what my darling wonderful scummy TOC would have done had they had their way unopposed. No wonder so many traincrew are trying to transfer across.

 

[railfan99]

That seems pretty reasonable, though? You can simply not opt in if you don’t wish to. It seems like a good compromise between company and union.

I’d much rather that than the entire TOC move from Sundays outside to committed Sundays.

Amazing that in the UK, railway staff have 'the option' not to work Sundays.

While I go to Mass on Sundays, there's generally the option worldwide if Catholic, for instance, to attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday nights.

Insisting that one can pick and choose whether to work on Sundays is a throwback to the 1950s.

Whether we all like it or not in Western nations, society has changed, and although travel demand is lower on all modes on Sunday mornings, some still need or want to travel at that time. Sunday afternoons can be busy.

Imagine being a nurse or firefighter and saying 'no, I'll not work on Saturday nights or Sunday mornings'.

For those who dislike it, isn't there the opportunity to swap shifts with other rail staff?

 

[43066]

Amazing that in the UK, railway staff have 'the option' not to work Sundays.

Many don’t! If you read back you’ll also see that you’ve rather missed the point. I was suggesting a way that TOCs with Sundays outside can be transitioned to Sundays inside the working week.

Insisting that one can pick and choose whether to work on Sundays is a throwback to the 1950s.

It’s also the way the railway industry has recruited staff for decades, whereas the unions representing them have wanted Sundays inside the week. The unions’ objection isn’t to working Sundays, it’s the fact the government is now trying to bring them in as forced overtime…

This point has been explained to you time and again.

Imagine being a nurse or firefighter and saying 'no, I'll not work on Saturday nights or Sunday mornings'.

Lots of medical staff can do exactly that.

Imagine signing a contract saying you work Monday to Friday and then being suddenly expected to work enforced overtime on your weekends. That wouldn’t be considered acceptable to many, yet railway workers are apparently expected to lump it.

 

[Signal_Box]

Do I see mention of the doors operated by drivers on the Valleys lines? Like, going DOO?

The valleys wasn’t covered under the WAG guard guarantee.

Moving from fully guarded to driver open/close, albeit with a fully safety critical guard still on board, sounds similar to the deal on SWR.

It is a very significant thing to sell, to be fair, to the point where I’m quite surprised they went for it.

EDIT: rereading what you’ve written, I’ve possibly jumped the gun assuming it’s driver open/close, appreciate you might not able to say anymore as yet!

One step closer to full DOO tram operation.

 

[Krokodil]

Amazing that in the UK, railway staff have 'the option' not to work Sundays.

Under the short-termist nature of privatisation, it wasn't generally worth spending the money recruiting and training extra staff to cover seven days within contracted hours when you wouldn't see any savings (through not paying an enhanced overtime rate) within the life of the franchise.

Extra staff also require extra uniforms, equipment, and managers too, unlike the existing staff on overtime so the cost difference between paying an enhanced rate of overtime vs more staff on basic rate is marginal.

"Committed Sundays" are a way of trying to do it on the cheap. Force people to work overtime, rather than employing enough staff to cover the work.

 

[Signal_Box]

Usually these are averaged over a defined cycle of the link? At my TOC we should be working a 4 day 35 hour week, but they get round it by averaging it over 12 weeks, so that's how I end up doing Five 9.5+ hour days some weeks

Always make to laugh when drivers call up all huffy going on that they’ve “been on 10hrs already”. Driv, I’m on my 6th 12hr shift so my sympathy is low I’m afraid.

Our base roster is X3 12hr turns, try doing that when the network is in meltdown and the phone doesn’t stop ringing, and you’ve got multiple incidents on the go.

12hr shifts are heaven, no way would I ever go back to traincrew style turns of anything between 5 and 10hrs with book ons anytime between 0000 and 0000!

 

[railfan99]

"Committed Sundays" are a way of trying to do it on the cheap. Force people to work overtime, rather than employing enough staff to cover the work.

What additional pay (percentage wise) do you receive for working on a Sunday as 'overtime'? (I assume it varies by TOC, but perhaps you could quote a 'common' figure).

While not true for every occupation, many in Australia receive 200 per cent on a Sunday i.e. double the usual hourly rate.

 

[whoosh]

Imagine the fire service providing a seven days a week service, but only having enough staff to provide a six days a week service, and then relying solely on overtime for the seventh day.

And the answer to this being a problem isn't having enough staff for seven days in future, but that it's cheaper to force overtime instead.

Imagine that crazy world for a moment...!

 

[Krokodil]

What additional pay (percentage wise) do you receive for working on a Sunday as 'overtime'? (I assume it varies by TOC, but perhaps you could quote a 'common' figure).

While not true for every occupation, many in Australia receive 200 per cent on a Sunday i.e. double the usual hourly rate.

Most operators will offer time-and-a-quarter or time-and-a-third. A tiny few go as far as double time for some grades.

 

[Signal_Box]

Imagine the fire service providing a seven days a week service, but only having enough staff to provide a six days a week service, and then relying solely on overtime for the seventh day.

And the answer to this being a problem isn't having enough staff for seven days in future, but that it's cheaper to force overtime instead.

Imagine that crazy world for a moment...!

Imagine any public service relying on staff goodwill to simply provide the very basic level of service - no need to imagine just look at EVERY public service in the U.K. even then they often fail to provide even the most basic level of service it’s definitely not just the railway.

 

[whoosh]

What additional pay (percentage wise) do you receive for working on a Sunday as 'overtime'? (I assume it varies by TOC, but perhaps you could quote a 'common' figure).

While not true for every occupation, many in Australia receive 200 per cent on a Sunday i.e. double the usual hourly rate.

Depends on TOC. Some are flat rate (Avanti, Cross Country), some time + 20% (Southern), going up to time + 55% (Thameslink/Great Northern).

 

[ComUtoR]

Amazing that in the UK, railway staff have 'the option' not to work Sundays.

(...)

Insisting that one can pick and choose whether to work on Sundays is a throwback to the 1950s.

Under current employment law.

Sunday working

The rules for working on Sundays, opt in, opt out arrangements, rules for shop and betting shop workers

www.gov.uk

Having to work on a Sunday depends on whether it’s mentioned in either the person’s:

• employment contract
• written statement of terms and conditions

A worker cannot be made to work on Sundays unless they agreed it with their employer and put it in writing (for example, changed the contract).


Employers only have to pay staff more for working on Sundays if it has been agreed as part of the contract.

Flexible working

Requesting flexible working, how to make an application, what business reasons an employer can give to reject an application and how to appeal.

www.gov.uk

Flexible working is a way of working that suits an employee’s needs, for example having flexible start and finish times, or working from home.

Modern employment law is giving employees more flexibility and freedom to choose what hours to work and what suits them. To meet this, the railway needs to heavily recruit and increase establishments. However, this goes against the grain and would cost an extortionate amount on the wage bill. Committed Sundays and Rest day working.... yep, that's gonna work..

 

[irish_rail]

Amazing that in the UK, railway staff have 'the option' not to work Sundays.

While I go to Mass on Sundays, there's generally the option worldwide if Catholic, for instance, to attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday nights.

Insisting that one can pick and choose whether to work on Sundays is a throwback to the 1950s.

Whether we all like it or not in Western nations, society has changed, and although travel demand is lower on all modes on Sunday mornings, some still need or want to travel at that time. Sunday afternoons can be busy.

Imagine being a nurse or firefighter and saying 'no, I'll not work on Saturday nights or Sunday mornings'.

For those who dislike it, isn't there the opportunity to swap shifts with other rail staff?

And what If I'm working Friday Saturday and Sunday? We are not generally against working Sundays, just working it on top of 5 other days during the week. A 6 day week isn't great for anyone. Aslef are very much in favour of traincrew working Sundays, provided we get say a Tuesday for example off to make up for working the Sunday. So your little rant doesn't hold any sway im afraid.

 

[craigybagel]

Moving from fully guarded to driver open/close, albeit with a fully safety critical guard still on board, sounds similar to the deal on SWR.

It is a very significant thing to sell, to be fair, to the point where I’m quite surprised they went for it.

EDIT: rereading what you’ve written, I’ve possibly jumped the gun assuming it’s driver open/close, appreciate you might not able to say anymore as yet!

It sounds like driver open guard closes, or ten bells. Either way, it's better than what my darling wonderful scummy TOC would have done had they had their way unopposed. No wonder so many traincrew are trying to transfer across.

The valleys wasn’t covered under the WAG guard guarantee.



One step closer to full DOO tram operation.

It's a bespoke solution different from that used at other TOCs. It requires both drivers and guards and thus it won't work as part of DOO - and in any case DOO is not covered as part of this agreement.

 

[winks]

RMT have accepted the scotrail offer

 

[Krokodil]

It's a bespoke solution different from that used at other TOCs. It requires both drivers and guards and thus it won't work as part of DOO - and in any case DOO is not covered as part of this agreement.

Drivers release, guards close I think.

 

[craigybagel]

Drivers release, guards close I think.

It's a little more complex than that.

 

[Stigy]

Amazing that in the UK, railway staff have 'the option' not to work Sundays.

While I go to Mass on Sundays, there's generally the option worldwide if Catholic, for instance, to attend a Vigil Mass on Saturday nights.

Insisting that one can pick and choose whether to work on Sundays is a throwback to the 1950s.

Whether we all like it or not in Western nations, society has changed, and although travel demand is lower on all modes on Sunday mornings, some still need or want to travel at that time. Sunday afternoons can be busy.

Imagine being a nurse or firefighter and saying 'no, I'll not work on Saturday nights or Sunday mornings'.

For those who dislike it, isn't there the opportunity to swap shifts with other rail staff?

Why is the Sunday thing such a sore point for a lot of people? Modernisation you say? In that case, I reckon the 9 to 5 Monday to Friday working is archaic….surely everyone should be made to work shifts encompassing a 363 day year? Because that’s what railway staff do, yet for some reason, people are all too happy to take the usual Tory disinformation (nasty rail workers don’t do Sundays….), and stick with it.

 

[dctraindriver]

Why is the Sunday thing such a sore point for a lot of people? Modernisation you say? In that case, I reckon the 9 to 5 Monday to Friday working is archaic….surely everyone should be made to work shifts encompassing a 363 day year? Because that’s what railway staff do, yet for some reason, people are all too happy to take the usual Tory disinformation (nasty rail workers don’t do Sundays….), and stick with it.

Well said. I’m a bit fed up with some of my friends who work Monday to Friday, a few just a 4 day week, and some mainly from home, taking the mick about rail workers striking and a couple actually criticising for asking for more money blah blah blah without actually reading what the issues are yet on the flip side when I tell them I can’t see them on the weekend they’ve planned a mass meet cos I’m working they get all huffy!

 

[jamesst]

Imagine the fire service providing a seven days a week service, but only having enough staff to provide a six days a week service, and then relying solely on overtime for the seventh day.

And the answer to this being a problem isn't having enough staff for seven days in future, but that it's cheaper to force overtime instead.

Imagine that crazy world for a moment...!

Imagine the fire service having to close stations for up to 24hrs at a time because there aren't enough staff to cover.

Then have a look at the various fire brigade union pages on social media and you'll probably be scared to find out this is EXACTLY what happens on a far too frequent basis.

 

[Signal_Box]

Well said. I’m a bit fed up with some of my friends who work Monday to Friday, a few just a 4 day week, and some mainly from home, taking the mick about rail workers striking and a couple actually criticising for asking for more money blah blah blah without actually reading what the issues are yet on the flip side when I tell them I can’t see them on the weekend they’ve planned a mass meet cos I’m working they get all huffy!

I’d suggest their not friends mate, and your much better off without them.

Imagine the fire service having to close stations for up to 24hrs at a time because there aren't enough staff to cover.

Then have a look at the various fire brigade union pages on social media and you'll probably be scared to find out this is EXACTLY what happens on a far too frequent basis.

Exactly, add to that the FACT that often there are more staff in your local MCD than policing your fairly large Town as a whole.

Public services are broken in this country, without billions of pounds over at least a decade or more it’ll only get worse.

 

[Train_manager]

Why is the Sunday thing such a sore point for a lot of people? Modernisation you say? In that case, I reckon the 9 to 5 Monday to Friday working is archaic….surely everyone should be made to work shifts encompassing a 363 day year? Because that’s what railway staff do, yet for some reason, people are all too happy to take the usual Tory disinformation (nasty rail workers don’t do Sundays….), and stick with it.

365 days for freight. And Sunday inside the working week.

I don't tell people what I do for living. I'm sick of the finger pointing.

"You train drivers on strike again, holding the country to ransom" etc...

"I work on freight and haven't been on strike"

"Oh"

Normally goes something like.

 

[dk1]

365 days for freight. And Sunday inside the working week.

I don't tell people what I do for living. I'm sick of the finger pointing.

"You train drivers on strike again, holding the country to ransom" etc...

"I work on freight and haven't been on strike"

"Oh"

Normally goes something like.

Turn it on them then hope it turns nasty. I walk away with such smug satisfaction then.

 

[Mag_seven]

The Scotrail ballot result is now known:

Train drivers union rejects ScotRail pay offer

Aslef says the pay offer was below inflation and calls for pay talks to be reopened immediately.

www.bbc.co.uk

Members of a train drivers' union have voted to reject a pay offer from ScotRail.
Aslef has called for pay talks to be reopened immediately after 51.6% of its members voted to decline the offer.
Last week the RMT union, representing conductors, ticket examiners and station staff voted for a similar deal which includes a 5% pay rise.
ScotRail said Aslef's rejection of the offer was disappointing but it remained committed to resolving the matter.
It is not clear how many of Aslef's membership took part in the ballot.

 

[dereksingh291]

Have TFW drivers accepted the pay offer?

 

[tomuk]

The Scotrail ballot result is now known:

Train drivers union rejects ScotRail pay offer

Aslef says the pay offer was below inflation and calls for pay talks to be reopened immediately.

www.bbc.co.uk

Was it not disappointing a month ago when Aslef recommended the deal to its members?

 

[Krokodil]

Have TFW drivers accepted the pay offer?

Haven't voted yet.

 

[snookertam]

The Scotrail ballot result is now known:

Train drivers union rejects ScotRail pay offer

Aslef says the pay offer was below inflation and calls for pay talks to be reopened immediately.

www.bbc.co.uk

This isn’t a huge surprise. Amazed that ASLEF recommended the deal. Not necessarily anything wrong with the deal, but the idea of train drivers just accepting the first deal offered was always fanciful.

 

[Drogba11CFC]

Seems like it only just fell short, so back to the table as opposed to strikes?