ASLEF TfW and ScotRail Offer

[Economist]

Sounds like things have moved on from the "milk float" days in the valleys...

ASLEF: SIGNIFICANT NEW PAY DEALS OFFERED IN WALES AND SCOTLAND – NOW IT’S TIME FOR THE DfT TO DO THE SAME IN ENGLAND | ASLEF

ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, has had ‘significant’ pay offers from ScotRail and Transport for Wales which we are recommending and putting to members for their decision.

aslef.org.uk

Edited to add:
ASLEF have announced that their negotiations with TfW and ScotRail have reached a point where proposed deals can be put to their members at the respective companies.

From the ASLEF website:

The four-year TfW offer is for 8.9%, backdated to 1 April, taking drivers to £63,200. With another 7.9% on 1 April 2024 taking drivers to £68,300. A further 4.1% in December 2024 taking drivers to £71,000. And a further increase on 1 April 2025 of RPI [as it stands in February 2025].

The one-year ScotRail offer is for 5% taking our drivers from £55,264 to £58,027.

 

[Silverlinky]

What are the "changes to conditions" which form part of the TfW deal? Just so we can put some perspective on the headline pay increase figures.

 

[Melancholia]

Can't be than many drastic changes to conditions, considering that ASLEF are recommending this deal.

 

[whoosh]

ÌCan't be than many drastic changes to conditions, considering that ASLEF are recommending this deal.

They've recommended drastic changes before. Infamously the 'opt in' or remain 'opted out' of Sundays in the working week at East Midlands Trains - with no opportunity to vote no I might add. It was either take a very moderate pay rise and stay as you are, or get a not very good rise for what you'll be giving your Sundays up for.

I would be interested in the conditions in this case too. The devil is in the detail as they say.

 

[43066]

They've recommended drastic changes before. Infamously the 'opt in' or remain 'opted out' of Sundays in the working week at East Midlands Trains - with no opportunity to vote no I might add. It was either take a very moderate pay rise and stay as you are, or get a not very good rise for what you'll be giving your Sundays up for.

I would be interested in the conditions in this case too. The devil is in the detail as they say.

That seems pretty reasonable, though? You can simply not opt in if you don’t wish to. It seems like a good compromise between company and union.

I’d much rather that than the entire TOC move from Sundays outside to committed Sundays.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I thought Sundays inside/4 on, 4 off was on the table for TfW drivers. Not sure if that's been formally agreed though

 

[whoosh]

That seems pretty reasonable, though? You can simply not opt in if you don’t wish to. It seems like a good compromise between company and union.

I’d much rather that than the entire TOC move from Sundays outside to committed Sundays.

Oh yes. The remaining opted out, or opt in element was very good.
It was more the rest of my post that were the issues. Drivers who didn't like the deal couldn't vote no, they had to have accepted on their behalf, a low pay rise, and further - the ex-Central Trains drivers remained on fewer annual leave days than their ex-Midland Mainline colleagues if they didn't accept Sundays in the working week (for only about £3k more, and not knowing how many Sundays per year were going to be expected).

Totally agree about all rostered Sundays becoming committed being highly undesirable.

I thought Sundays inside/4 on, 4 off was on the table for TfW drivers. Not sure if that's been formally agreed though

I can't see 4 on 4 off happening. That would be an average of a 3.5 day week as you'd work half the time, and be off half the time.
35 hours into 3½ is an average 10 hour day! No thanks. Would be very surprised to see that being agreed.

 

[CAF397]

Usually these are averaged over a defined cycle of the link? At my TOC we should be working a 4 day 35 hour week, but they get round it by averaging it over 12 weeks, so that's how I end up doing Five 9.5+ hour days some weeks

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I can't see 4 on 4 off happening. That would be an average of a 3.5 day week as you'd work half the time, and be off half the time.
35 hours into 3½ is an average 10 hour day! No thanks. Would be very surprised to see that being agreed.

I know it was in discussions, whether or not it got through DRI is another question.

It works out at 8.75hr per day, 4 days per week. Not sure why you think it will be 10 hours per day. It's the same number of hours/days as now!
Just means rest day pattern changes, working an average of 1 in 2 weekends rather than 2 in 3, but with lingers consecutive runs of weekends in/weekends off. It works elsewhere.

 

[irish_rail]

I know it was in discussions, whether or not it got through DRI is another question.

It works out at 8.75hr per day, 4 days per week. Not sure why you think it will be 10 hours per day. It's the same number of hours/days as now!
Just means rest day pattern changes, working an average of 1 in 2 weekends rather than 2 in 3, but with lingers consecutive runs of weekends in/weekends off. It works elsewhere.

4 on 4 off is pretty much the dream. Id kill for that on GWR. If TFW have achieved that, plus 68k in a year or so time, there is likely to be an exodus of qualified drivers from the likes of GWR etc over to TFW. Hopefully we can get something similar at English TOCs but with the current Government I won't be holding my breath!

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Personally have no interest in a four on four off pattern. Don’t think it would actually make life as good as it sounds like it would.

 

[whoosh]

I know it was in discussions, whether or not it got through DRI is another question.

It works out at 8.75hr per day, 4 days per week. Not sure why you think it will be 10 hours per day. It's the same number of hours/days as now!
Just means rest day pattern changes, working an average of 1 in 2 weekends rather than 2 in 3, but with lingers consecutive runs of weekends in/weekends off. It works elsewhere.

Okay, let me put it another way.



There's 56 days in 8 weeks. If you worked 4 on 4 off, you'd work 28 days during this time.

An average 35 hours a week over 8 weeks is 280 hours.

So you'd work 280 hours over 28 days, which is an average of 10 hours a day.


4 on 4 off seems to be one of those "railway rumours" that surfaces a lot at pay deal time!

 

[Thirteen]

Out of interest, are there any non DfT run TOCs that has deals running out soon like MTR Elizabeth Line for example? I know ARL did their deal last year.

 

[richfoz84]

I thought Sundays inside/4 on, 4 off was on the table for TfW drivers. Not sure if that's been formally agreed though

Sundays inside is the main T&C change for this pay offer. There are multiple smaller changes too. I think they are still trying to work out an acceptable shift pattern allowing it to stay a “4 day week” somehow…

 

[Teddyward]

Out of interest, are there any non DfT run TOCs that has deals running out soon like MTR Elizabeth Line for example? I know ARL did their deal last year.

Yes. MTR currently in negotiations with ASLEF. 2 offers already made and rejected.

 

[vikingdriver]

Sundays inside is the main T&C change for this pay offer. There are multiple smaller changes too. I think they are still trying to work out an acceptable shift pattern allowing it to stay a “4 day week” somehow…

Shouldn't be too hard, we have Sunday's inside. My previous depot had true 4 day weeks. My current depot is an average 4 day week.

 

[Bld1]

What are the "changes to conditions" which form part of the TfW deal? Just so we can put some perspective on the headline pay increase figures.

Main change : sundays within the working week . Sundays effectively become a normal working day . There is no limitation to how many Sundays tfw can introduce. No dummy link to see how it would work has been presented .

 

[CannonBall]

Out of curiosity, is there any update on this?

 

[Krokodil]

TfW waiting for a vote.

 

[387star]

Do TFW take Qualifieds?

 

[irish_rail]

Do TFW take Qualifieds?

Didn't take long. I reckon there will be a queue a mile long, GWR, Avanti, TPE and Northern all gonna have drivers looking to move west now. I think I've seen them occasionally take on qualifieds from time to time for certain depots like Chester.

 

[43066]

Didn't take long. I reckon there will be a queue a mile long, GWR, Avanti, TPE and Northern all gonna have drivers looking to move west now. I think I've seen them occasionally take on qualifieds from time to time for certain depots like Chester.

I know of someone who moved as a qualified driver from a London commuter TOC to “The Valleys” (I can’t remember the exact depot), which I gather is one of the less desirable areas to live/work.

 

[craigybagel]

Ballots are being sent out later this week with a result due in July.

It won't be 4 on 4 off as that would provide the same level of cover on a Sunday as on a weekday which is clearly excessive.

What are the "changes to conditions" which form part of the TfW deal? Just so we can put some perspective on the headline pay increase figures.

There's a lot of smaller changes, on top of Sundays inside. It covers all kinds of areas. Lots of the "modernisations" that the DfT talk about but won't pay for at other TOCs.

Do TFW take Qualifieds?

They do, and a lot more have been sniffing around since news of this deal went public.

 

[TDK]

Can't be than many drastic changes to conditions, considering that ASLEF are recommending this deal.

Really? It's all about conditions.

Local reps are currently drawing up dummy rosters incorporating Sundays inside the week, for drivers to see before they vote. It won't be 4 on 4 off as that would provide the same level of cover on a Sunday as on a weekday which is clearly excessive. It'll be around 1 Sunday in 3 worked.

Ballots are being sent out later this week with a result due in July.


There's a lot of smaller changes, on top of Sundays inside. Use of tablets, changes to usage on spare turns, notice periods, DI responsibilities, moving of the annual leave year from an April start to a January start, door operation on the Valley lines, maintenance staff doing preps, and various other changes on top. Lots of the "modernisations" that the DfT talk about but won't pay for at other TOCs.

They do, and a lot more have been sniffing around since news of this deal went public.

Has this information yet been released into the public domain? This is a political battle, Welsh Labour get a deal and the Tory DFT don't. Those conditions you have listed are a huge change and in real terms a pay cut if you take into account the current Sunday agreement.

Didn't take long. I reckon there will be a queue a mile long, GWR, Avanti, TPE and Northern all gonna have drivers looking to move west now. I think I've seen them occasionally take on qualifieds from time to time for certain depots like Chester.

I suggest before applying read the terms and conditions carefully.

 

[Krokodil]

It won't be 4 on 4 off as that would provide the same level of cover on a Sunday as on a weekday which is clearly excessive.

Not only that, on a 35 hr week the shifts would have to average ten hours long.

Lots of the "modernisations" that the DfT talk about but won't pay for at other TOCs.

I don't think that some of the real sticking points are in there. Things like 12hr movement off of spare, full weeks of spare (including RD movement), and banning fixed or rolling RD patterns for example.

I haven't read the full offer, mind.

 

[craigybagel]

Really? It's all about conditions.


This is a political battle, Welsh Labour get a deal and the Tory DFT don't. Those conditions you have listed are a huge change and in real terms a pay cut if you take into account the current Sunday agreement.

I'm not going to be drawn into an argument on the rights and wrongs of the deal here, this is not the place. It's for the drivers to decide how they feel and if the changes are a price worth paying. I'm merely pointing out that ASLEF are prepared to make concessions - something which people on this site who don't like unions are often loathe to admit.

I don't think that some of the real sticking points are in there. Things like 12hr movement off of spare, full weeks of spare (including RD movement), and banning fixed or rolling RD patterns for example.

Oh absolutely, it doesn't include everything that the DfT want. But as I said above, it does show that ASLEF are prepared to agree to a degree of "modernisation". There's a deal to be made at the other TOCs if the DfT really wants it.

 

[GalaxyDog]

Do I see mention of the doors operated by drivers on the Valleys lines? Like, going DOO?

 

[chuff chuff]

I don't think that some of the real sticking points are in there. Things like 12hr movement off of spare, full weeks of spare (including RD movement), and banning fixed or rolling RD patterns for example.

Does anyone have the proposed changes,I've had drivers up here looking longingly at the pay increases wondering why we shouldn't be looking for those increases without any knowledge of what's expected in return.

 

[craigybagel]

Do I see mention of the doors operated by drivers on the Valleys lines? Like, going DOO?

No DOO. Without going into too much detail, drivers and conductors will both still be involved in the process, but it's a change as until now drivers don't open or close doors on any TfW service.

If there's no conductor onboard then there's no passengers either.

 

[Joliver]

Do TFW take Qualifieds?

Yes, two went from my depot last July..