Attitude Doesn't Help

[D306]

LilLoaf,

the terroist attack they had was on a plane, not on a railway. CCTV isn't always reliable. sometimes you need eyes and ears. ears mainly because CCTV hasn't got any sound recording on it yet. America and the UK have completely different ways of handling train spotters. Sure you got a cab ride in america, but here, the drivers dont want people in the cab. it's most likely that they want to concentrate on the driving instead of being un focussed and talking to a rail enthusiast at the same time

 

[LilLoaf]

D306 - u have a point i except that. America does have other ways of handling train spotters. Seems to me they have a more relaxed attitude than over here.


Nobody on here can say they have not been annoyed by the way SOME security staff go on in their jobs. We've all been bothered from time to time.

There is a post somewhere on here asking for examples where people have been bothered by security staff and BTP. Maybe my comments may be better directed in there.

 

[Snapper]

I really don't see how the railway can be a private company when its ran by a load of Managers and Executives and not simply one person. Now the Betty's burger van up the street from me is private business as its owned by one person betty.

Most companies are 'run' by lots of people. It doesn't make them public. A pub is called a 'public house' and the public use it - but it doesn't stop it being private property.

The reality is that stations ARE private property, and as such the owners have the right to say what goes.

 

[yorkie]

We've been through this before.

There is no 'rule' or law that says photographers 'have to' or 'should' sign in at stations.

There is, however, a guideline, that enthusiasts - who may, or may not - be photographers, should sign in at stations. These guidelines only appear to be available online, so it is unclear how people without internet access (or indeed who have not searched for them) are meant to know of their existence.

In theory, any enthusiast 'should' sign in, it doesn't say anyone is exempt even if it's just for 5 minutes. Standing at a platform end for a long period of time will mean that it is fairly obvious that that person is an enthusiast. Being an enthusiast apparently means you should not gather in waiting rooms, or stand near departure screens, etc. This doesn't mean that you can't do these things, but you are asked not to.

In theory, if you are a cyclist who is boarding a train you are not required to take off a (yellow, obviously) hi-vis jacket when loading a bike onto a train, but if you are an enthusiast and a cyclist then you should take off your hi-vis jacket when doing this. Until we get mind-readers though that it not really enforcable.

If you read the guidelines in detail it is very clear that it is aimed at people who arrive by non-rail transport, then stand at the end of a platform for hours on end. It clearly isn't aimed at people who take a couple of pics while changing trains! But it doesn't make any sort of distinction.

Do many people on this forum really stand on platform ends for hours? I suspect not many do. I think people on here are more likely to have a general healthy interest than be obsessed with standing at the end of a platform all day. So the person at LST is unlikely to be reading this.

 

[LilLoaf]

Right then stations are private property, i still remain unconviced but carn't be bothered to argue any more

Snaper - nice train photograghy website there,

It is a bit mad asking people to sign in to take photogragh's, if its to prevent people taking pictures of security related equipment then asking people to sign in isn't going to stop that. People will take pictures of what ever they want signed in/ or not signed in. Its a pitty the country gone in a state of panic about having train spotters taking photo's at the end of platform. I used to enjoy my hobby of taking photograghs of trains now i have a sence of dread about even going on a station camera in hand. Maybe i'll just give up the hobby and find something else to do.

 

[Dennis]

...now i have a sence of dread about even going on a station camera in hand. Maybe i'll just give up the hobby and find something else to do.

Or just get off the station and find somewhere more interesting.

 

[Phoenix]

Private companies are run for profit.

It means they can restrict who does what on their premises* and who goes where.

*Yes I realise Railway stations are owned by NR but they are run & operated by TOCs.

People with your attitude really annoy me.

I hate to admit it but I have to aggree it's their property so If they say jump we actually have to say how high???

But I guess it's a case of going off the station's to take the photo's and then if anyone has a moan you can be as rude as you like as it's

no man's land as long as you stick to the obvious rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LilLoaf,

the terroist attack they had was on a plane, not on a railway.

Im sorry but the Madrid bombings???? How about the LU attacks we really all have to start thing these things through or else we will end up like Jean Charles de Menezes and Im not joking it WILL happen!!

 

[LilLoaf]

How in the name of everything is stopping train spotters going to stop terror attacks.

1. train spotters are taking photo's of trains
2. asking train spotters to sign in will make no differance to what they take photo's off
3. if people are worried about taking pictures of security related equipment then what train spotters got to do with it, if they want to take photo's of for example CCTV they will use a smaller camera, a phone one perhaps, so we are going to stop anyone with a phone in they hand
4. there is no law to stop train spotters taking photo's, i even asked a lawyer
5. as long as spotters don't stray into restricted area's then nobody has any power to bother them,
6. no train has ever been delayed due to train spottes
7. no passengers have ever complained about train spotters
8. some staff even have a polite conversation with train spotters about the railway and where best train spotting locations.
9. left baggage is more of a risk than train spotters
10. The country has gone mad.

ok the last one isn't really a point, but the rest of the list are good points. Points that underline the stupidity of this paranoia that SOME not all people have against train spotters.

If it is such a major issue that staff feel they need to come and annoy train spotters then why don't all staff do it, why is it just a small majority.

Most staff either leave us to take our photo's and some even come and have a polite chat.

I guess in someones going to come on here and argue with all 9 good points soon arn't they.

 

[class 313]

But all this attitude nonsense I think is being aimed all at the enthusiasts. When staff can be just as bad.

When such remarks as 'Please can you get off the platform, its illegal to take photos' gets presented at me, I'm hardly going to be nice back when they are just lying to me about why I need to move on. So then an argument starts then you get 'Ok fine I will call the BTP' Which in my experience never happens, that's the staff pretty much backing down but trying to get you to move once more. Sometimes its quite funny to hear what these people come up with.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LilLoaf,

the terroist attack they had was on a plane, not on a railway. CCTV isn't always reliable. sometimes you need eyes and ears. ears mainly because CCTV hasn't got any sound recording on it yet. America and the UK have completely different ways of handling train spotters. Sure you got a cab ride in america, but here, the drivers dont want people in the cab. it's most likely that they want to concentrate on the driving instead of being un focussed and talking to a rail enthusiast at the same time

Complete twaddle being said here.

So what if it was a plane? They still need to look out all over public transport.

But its not about drivers not wanting people in their cabs. In my experiences Its not like that at all. Drivers invite us into the cab but because of H&S and other such rules, they are not really allowed. I've had 'Do you wan't to see into the cab?' Of course I say yes, then once in the cab and the driver and I start talking about the controls and if he enjoys driving and what's the favourite traction... etc. The driver then usually says 'I would give you a cabride if I could, but the CCTV all over the stations and all that...'

 

[LilLoaf]

Thank you very much 313 i totally agree with you.

I find the drivers very polite and easy to talk to and useally actually let you see in the cab.

I also find it funny to hear what some staff come up with when they ask you not to take photo's. "Its illegal" err no its not, "Its a security issue" err nope wrong again, "Its what the chief of police tell me to say" no its what you want to say to me.

Its time well all started to argue back, like Class 313 mentions above in 2nd paragragh, of course we are not going to be nice back when we are told we a breaking the law when we are not. Also they useally get bored and gave up anyway.

So lets all argue back, wave the guidelines imposed by the BTP police cheif around in front of them which clearly states we are not breaking any law, but please please please DO NOT start any fights !!!

 

[TEW]

Why don't you just sign in. Problem solved. I can't say I ever stand on ends of platforms for hours but if it takes me one minute to go tell staff I am here then I will. It does no harm but reassures them.

 

[class 313]

Why don't you just sign in. Problem solved. I can't say I ever stand on ends of platforms for hours but if it takes me one minute to go tell staff I am here then I will. It does no harm but reassures them.

I don't stick around on platforms for hours, and if I do? I will only sign in when asked.

 

[Techniquest]

Few years back I was at Kings Cross waiting to phot (or at least watch) a 373 going out on the 1405 (or something like that) to Leeds from platform 1 (it was off p5 IIRC). A security guy in a blue NR stations hi-vis-style jacket came up and asked why I was there. I told him, I got asked how I knew that it was going on the 1405 to Leeds. I told him I saw it on the screens. Bit obvious...

Point was he wouldn't go until I had watched it leave and followed me down the platform. To date that's only happened once for me. Anyone else had this?

I don't bother platform-ending much any more, although to be frank there's hardly any need these days since I've since most of the stuff running about and I'm not terribly into photography. Some people seem happy to sit there with their cameras taking 30 minutes to photograph a 317 (or whatever it might be) five zillion times, but I much prefer to get my shot and get out of the way. Even then you get some bloody strange looks.

 

[class 313]

Few years back I was at Kings Cross waiting to phot (or at least watch) a 373 going out on the 1405 (or something like that) to Leeds from platform 1 (it was off p5 IIRC). A security guy in a blue NR stations hi-vis-style jacket came up and asked why I was there. I told him, I got asked how I knew that it was going on the 1405 to Leeds. I told him I saw it on the screens. Bit obvious...

Point was he wouldn't go until I had watched it leave and followed me down the platform. To date that's only happened once for me. Anyone else had this?

Happened to me at my local, I was told it was illegal, yet again. :roll:

 

[LilLoaf]

Happens more in London than anywhere else.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Unfortunately my staff ID has not prevented me having more run-ins with over zealous and ill informed railway staff on platforms in the UK than I have ever had taking pictures of aircraft at airports in the USA.

I can spend hours on end on the top deck of the parking lot in the middle of Phoenix airport or Imperial Hill overlooking Los Angeles International without any interuption from airport security/the LAPD, but a few minutes at Paddington or KX and I'm a threat to national security.

It's as much about poor communication and poor training as anything else.



Matt

 

[GWRtom]

Happens more in London than anywhere else.

any major station it's lickly to happen not just in london

i was at kings cross once i think on the far left platform,dont know the platform number
and i was just filming a NXEC 225 set come in and the btp just walked right past me and didn't even ask mewhat i was doing there
(maybe because im just a 17year old boy)

 

[class 313]

(maybe because im just a 17year old boy)

That doesn't get you out of trouble, believe me.

 

[nath9425]

Very true.

I have been stopped many times...and I am 14 -

 

[mumrar]

This debate is always going to be a hot potato, but I see railway life from both sides of the lens. Things are not made easy for the rest of us by incidents involving flash photography that I still see some people doing on stations.

The problem is it's a VERY big distraction for all operating staff, not a directly harmful action.

Now I will always seek out staff if spending a good amount of time in any station and as well as appeasing the guidelines it can mean getting to do some great photography. I have even managed to secure passes and approval for TRIPOD use at Paddington - anyone who has tried will know why I capitalised the word tripod.

It's sadly about tolerance, the railway have always been happy to tolerate enthusiasts on the stations and still are, but enthusiasts have to be able to respect and comply with any requests made by the railway.

Lastly, my depot station is New St and I am surprised to hear that people get some hassle here, as I have always been able to go about my business when explained without any issue (in uniform or not) but it does sadden the heart a little

 

[68]

How in the name of everything is stopping train spotters going to stop terror attacks.

1. train spotters are taking photo's of trains
2. asking train spotters to sign in will make no differance to what they take photo's off
3. if people are worried about taking pictures of security related equipment then what train spotters got to do with it, if they want to take photo's of for example CCTV they will use a smaller camera, a phone one perhaps, so we are going to stop anyone with a phone in they hand
4. there is no law to stop train spotters taking photo's, i even asked a lawyer
5. as long as spotters don't stray into restricted area's then nobody has any power to bother them,
6. no train has ever been delayed due to train spottes
7. no passengers have ever complained about train spotters
8. some staff even have a polite conversation with train spotters about the railway and where best train spotting locations.
9. left baggage is more of a risk than train spotters
10. The country has gone mad.

ok the last one isn't really a point, but the rest of the list are good points. Points that underline the stupidity of this paranoia that SOME not all people have against train spotters.

If it is such a major issue that staff feel they need to come and annoy train spotters then why don't all staff do it, why is it just a small majority.

Most staff either leave us to take our photo's and some even come and have a polite chat.

I guess in someones going to come on here and argue with all 9 good points soon arn't they.

 

[class 313]

I have even managed to secure passes and approval for TRIPOD use at Paddington - anyone who has tried will know why I capitalised the word tripod.

I did the same at London Bridge, they invited us up into the office where we asked if we could use a tripod to film/take shots. They said yes but as long as it didn't get in the way.

 

[LilLoaf]

This debate is always going to be a hot potato, but I see railway life from both sides of the lens. Things are not made easy for the rest of us by incidents involving flash photography that I still see some people doing on stations.

The problem is it's a VERY big distraction for all operating staff, not a directly harmful action.




What an absolute load of utter rubbish, how can flash photograghy be a big distraction. When a tourest from another country takes a photo one of those old London buses do you ever see it crash into a wall. If someone takes a photo of a building that i'm walking past i'm certainly not going to get distracted and forget where i am going.

DISTRACTION - i would say that large football crowds, train horns, trains passing through stations, are bigger distraction that someone taking a photo 20 -30 feet whatever it maybe up the platform.

I am certainly not going to switch the flash off on my camera on the crowds its a distraction.

I have never ever took a photo at a station and be told its a distraction. Been told nearly everything else.

Next time takes a photo of the tower black i work in i'm going to go downstairs and ask them to go away becasue its distracting me from working.

I am sure that they will just laugh. Like everyone else when they read this.

 

[AlexS]

Lilloaf, you are a prize tit.

Flash photography is horrendously distracting - I know if I get caught with a flash from fairly close range it can bring on a migraine.

The last thing I'd want if I was concentrating on a signal bringing a train to a stand is to have some arse flashgunning me.

I've heard tell, probably on here, of a Freightliner driver who was sufficiently miffed by being 'flashed' that he hopped out of the cab and handed out a rollicking.

 

[jv3531]

Flash photography - causes momentary blindness if unfortunate to catch it full on, therefore distracts and disorintates driver - increases risk of spads/overruns - do you need anymore reasons????

People need to realise that these days its not just aimed at us, its aimed at all. Come on guys, as Ive said before - play by the rules. Don't let the few spoil it for the many, its common sense more than anything.

 

[class 313]

I remember at Lincoln, someone flashed at the spoon and the driver leant on shouting at him.

 

[LilLoaf]

Totally madness this now.
So far we've had that train spotters are treated as terrorests

Getting train spotters to sign in reduces the risk of terrorism, who knows how ?

Flash photograghy causes momentry blindness, so when you take photos of friends it blind them does it? Does it really ? no i don't think so.

When bus spotters take pics of buses the driver goes blind and goes through a red light. I'm going to try that in my car " sorry for going through a red but someone took photo and it blinded me.

BTP people of the law telling us not to do something that isnt even against the law.

I think everyone really needs to relax a bit. Its paranoia, its people jumping to conclusions.

 

[class 313]

Totally madness this now.
So far we've had that train spotters are treated as terrorests

Getting train spotters to sign in reduces the risk of terrorism, who knows how ?

Flash photograghy causes momentry blindness, so when you take photos of friends it blind them does it? Does it really ? no i don't think so.

When bus spotters take pics of buses the driver goes blind and goes through a red light. I'm going to try that in my car " sorry for going through a red but someone took photo and it blinded me.

BTP people of the law telling us not to do something that isnt even against the law.

I think everyone really needs to relax a bit. Its paranoia, its people jumping to conclusions.

Its a well known fact that flash takes out the drivers eyes for a couple of seconds if not more.

 

[dan_atki]

Flash photograghy causes momentry blindness, so when you take photos of friends it blind them does it? Does it really ? no i don't think so.

I could go all technical here about how the eye works based on the level of light it receives but I won't bore you (unless you want me to).

What I will say, however, is try it. Do it right now - get the closest person to take a picture of you right now with the flash operating. Whilst they are, don't stare at the lens but stare at the flash and see (literally) what happens . We could argue back and forth about it does/doesn't affect people but there is a reason people do experiments rather than base everything on theory .

Mod note:
I sense this is getting a bit heated now but please refrain from flaming other users so as to keep the thread open.

 

[Craig]

When bus spotters take pics of buses the driver goes blind and goes through a red light. I'm going to try that in my car " sorry for going through a red but someone took photo and it blinded me.

Generally it's a lot easier and quicker to stop a road vehicle in a controlled manor. Slamming your foot on the brake (figuratively) when driving a train doesn't quite have the same effect.

Also most camera flashes aren't bright enough to be effective when taking photos of trains anyway unless you use a more powerful external flash, but that definitely would be a distraction to the drivers...