ATW Drivers Strike

[Robertj21a]

The detail of how much ATW wants to increase shift length is utterly irrelevant.

Not sure that's entirely correct. If the management wanted to extend shifts by, say, just 10 mins to resolve a specific problem - and were prepared to offer an hour's pay in recompense - I would have thought most union members would want it considered.

 

[Gareth Marston]

ANY increase in working hours, no matter how much or little, had to be strongly opposed by a trade union and fully negotiated-at the start of negotiation, not the tail end of. TUs exist to better their members lot. An increase in work length certainly worsens their work/life balance and is a pay cut in real terms. This can NEVER be acceptable to a union.

People like you seem to forget the most basic point of a union which is of course to represent and get the best possible deal for its members. The detail of how much ATW wants to increase shift length is utterly irrelevant.

So its not an increase "in shift length" but working hours then? ASLEF website is wrong?

Someone could be doing 4 shifts of 8 hours and one of 4 for instance and are now being offered 4 of 9 hours instead. An increase in shift length and a decrease in the days worked which many might find acceptable.

You see what I mean about lack of detail and how it obscures the debate?

 

[A-driver]

So its not an increase "in shift length" but working hours then? ASLEF website is wrong?



Someone could be doing 4 shifts of 8 hours and one of 4 for instance and are now being offered 4 of 9 hours instead. An increase in shift length and a decrease in the days worked which many might find acceptable.



You see what I mean about lack of detail and how it obscures the debate?

If most members found the change acceptable then it would be agreed. I highly doubt it will lead to a reduction in working days as that would likely be accepted.

If the members of the Union were happy with the proposed changes they not would be accepted and they wouldn't vote to strike and loose pay over it would they?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure that's entirely correct. If the management wanted to extend shifts by, say, just 10 mins to resolve a specific problem - and were prepared to offer an hour's pay in recompense - I would have thought most union members would want it considered.

If that was the case then clearly the members wouldn't vote to strike and loose pay over this! Perhaps think logically before posting. The fact that members are voting in incredibly high numbers to go on strike and sacrifice their wages proves that the changes being proposed are certainly not favourable to the employees.

This isn't complicated, it's easy to work out if management are proposing changes in favour of or against employees by looking to se if the unions membership is calling to accept the offer of taking the ultimate action which will cause loss of earnings and huge disruption for the travelling public by voting overwhelmingly to strike.

 

[Robertj21a]

If most members found the change acceptable then it would be agreed. I highly doubt it will lead to a reduction in working days as that would likely be accepted.

If the members of the Union were happy with the proposed changes they not would be accepted and they wouldn't vote to strike and loose pay over it would they?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



If that was the case then clearly the members wouldn't vote to strike and loose pay over this! Perhaps think logically before posting. The fact that members are voting in incredibly high numbers to go on strike and sacrifice their wages proves that the changes being proposed are certainly not favourable to the employees.

This isn't complicated, it's easy to work out if management are proposing changes in favour of or against employees by looking to se if the unions membership is calling to accept the offer of taking the ultimate action which will cause loss of earnings and huge disruption for the travelling public by voting overwhelmingly to strike.

It's not a question of thinking logically, you really need to explain yourself much clearer if you really want to help others understand. Are you a Union negotiator by any chance ? By the way, you continually refer to 'loose' which can't just be a typo every time. Presumably, to make sense, you mean 'lose' ?

 

[Carlisle]

Strikes me that your information about what ATW drivers do, other than DOO, is somewhat lacking!!

I'be perfectly aware of what drivers do thanks after quite a long time on the railway and if you'd bothered to read any of my other posts you'd realise I already acknowledged the case for paying drivers different money depending on what company they work for is very weak anyway

 

[FordFocus]

Arriva and ASLEF had an agreement to end the dispute, formalities for a pay deal were about to be completed with signatures from both sides when a change to how engineering work and special working hours was sneaked in by ATW.

The maximum day for short term plan (STP) for engineering work or special working could extend your day to 11.5hrs. Those hours for TOCs are especially rare and have been negotiated out of various agreements through past years of fatigue and planning activities away from work reasons. I can guarantee that the 'clause' in question would get abused by rostering staff when there is a shortage of drivers. It impacts a work life balance for drivers by taking you off a booked job and then extending it by enforcing overtime.

 

[atw driver]

Ballot result just in strike action 81.7%, action short of strike 93.4%

 

[ainsworth74]

Turnout?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Striking on Jan 4 according to the BBC. Happy New Year...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-35129673

Arriva Trains Wales drivers will strike for 24 hours as part of a dispute over pay and conditions.

Members of the Aslef union will walk out on January 4, the day many return to work after the Christmas break.

Union members backed strikes by 4-1 in a ballot, with a turnout of 80% and Aslef accused the company on reneging on a deal aimed at resolving the row.

Union members will also refuse to work overtime from December 28. A planned strike was called off in November.

 

[DarloRich]

An 80% turnout suggests vast unhappiness!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

An 80% turnout suggests vast unhappiness!

Very unhappy with that sort of turnout (I am sure the Tories will find a way of banning it though)

 

[DarloRich]

Very unhappy with that sort of turnout (I am sure the Tories will find a way of banning it though)

It was only 80% not the soon to be required 400% turn out!

 

[northwichcat]

Very unhappy with that sort of turnout (I am sure the Tories will find a way of banning it though)

Can we get rid of George Osborne, he failed to get 80% of votes in Tatton.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Can we get rid of George Osborne, he failed to get 80% of votes in Tatton.

Please do.. still waiting for him to board my 142 at Knutsford lol

 

[Carlisle]

11.5hrs. Those hours for TOCs are especially rare .

when the railways are making large profits I suppose you'll virtually be able to name your price,but until then I think it'll remain a trade off between affordable use of public funds and what other roughly equivalent professions are actually working for in the outside world etc etc ,

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can we get rid of George Osborne, he failed to get 80% of votes in Tatton.

There is a subtle difference between the wide range of people with different views who are eligible to vote in a General Election in a constituency and that of the membership of a certain Trades Union taking part in a ballot.

Sits back in his new Chesterfield armchair, glass of Christmas port in hand, awaiting to be compared to King Herod judging the "best baby" contest....

 

[northwichcat]

There is a subtle difference between the wide range of people with different views who are eligible to vote in a General Election in a constituency and that of the membership of a certain Trades Union taking part in a ballot.

George Osborne is seen as one of the few MPs who got over 50% of cast votes in his constituency. However, only 40% of the people eligible to vote in Tatton actually voted for him, so you can justifiably say most people in Tatton didn't want him as their MP despite what the figures appear.

Sits back in his new Chesterfield armchair, glass of Christmas port in hand, awaiting to be compared to King Herod judging the "best baby" contest....

I hope it's in the seasonal "Vintage Oxblood" colour. Well the Ox had to be brought up as we've mentioned the Ass already.

 

[TDK]

Arriva and ASLEF had an agreement to end the dispute, formalities for a pay deal were about to be completed with signatures from both sides when a change to how engineering work and special working hours was sneaked in by ATW.

The maximum day for short term plan (STP) for engineering work or special working could extend your day to 11.5hrs. Those hours for TOCs are especially rare and have been negotiated out of various agreements through past years of fatigue and planning activities away from work reasons. I can guarantee that the 'clause' in question would get abused by rostering staff when there is a shortage of drivers. It impacts a work life balance for drivers by taking you off a booked job and then extending it by enforcing overtime.

LTP - Long term planning diagram - duration until the next timetable change
STP - Short term planning for whatever reason a company feels that and STP is required, it could even be a 1m later departure on one train at one station with over 80 station stops on the diagram.

There is a huge difference between the 2 types of diagram.

For instance, I get STP diagrams on a frequent basis possibly every other day.

So, if a promise is made for a maximum turn length that takes a few years to finalise that should be the maximum turn length whether it is LTP or STP.

Now if there are special events or engineering work that are clearly going to extend diagrams then yes, possibly a longer diagram could be accepted for this scenario but such scenario needs to be set out with any agreements.

This may explain the difference between LTP and STP diagrams.

 

[A-driver]

There is a subtle difference between the wide range of people with different views who are eligible to vote in a General Election in a constituency and that of the membership of a certain Trades Union taking part in a ballot.



Sits back in his new Chesterfield armchair, glass of Christmas port in hand, awaiting to be compared to King Herod judging the "best baby" contest....

We are not talking about HOW they voted though but IF they voted. The TU bill suggests that an abstention should be counted as a 'no' vote. In political elections an abstention isn't taken into consideration at all, the same way it isn't currently in TU ballots. Currently an abstention isn't deducted or added to either the yes or no vote. The bill will see it added to the no vote basically. That could, in theory, be applied to political elections so whilst I agree it's a different type of ballot in that a TU ballot asks for a simple 2-way answer (yay or nay) a political ballot could have several options, the minimum turnout could be used to void a political ballot as much as it does a TU one.

An abstention most definitely dosnt mean someone dosnt agree with or support industrial action-that's what the 'no' option is for! An abstention often means someone is happy to go with the majority decision, can't organise themselves to actually vote or simply can't be bothered-the same reasons for many political vote abstentions.

 

[bnm]

George Osborne is seen as one of the few MPs who got over 50% of cast votes in his constituency. However, only 40% of the people eligible to vote in Tatton actually voted for him, so you can justifiably say most people in Tatton didn't want him as their MP despite what the figures appear.

Which is presupposing the preference of those who didn't vote. Whose to say that group of people did or didn't want George Osborne as MP?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We are not talking about HOW they voted though but IF they voted. The TU bill suggests that an abstention should be counted as a 'no' vote. In political elections an abstention isn't taken into consideration at all, the same way it isn't currently in TU ballots. Currently an abstention isn't deducted or added to either the yes or no vote. The bill will see it added to the no vote basically. That could, in theory, be applied to political elections so whilst I agree it's a different type of ballot in that a TU ballot asks for a simple 2-way answer (yay or nay) a political ballot could have several options, the minimum turnout could be used to void a political ballot as much as it does a TU one.

An abstention most definitely doesn't mean someone doesn't agree with or support industrial action-that's what the 'no' option is for! An abstention often means someone is happy to go with the majority decision, can't organise themselves to actually vote or simply can't be bothered-the same reasons for many political vote abstentions.

The "subtle difference" between the two comparisons that I made in my earlier posting is that the Trades Union ballot would cover a range of possible options but basically all based upon different options of the same premise, but In a General Election, an abstention could cover the abhorrence of expressed views of any one of the candidates standing for election, of which none of us know whom it is.

After our posting exchanges in 2015, I would sincerely like to take this opportunity to wish you a Happy Christmas and a good New Year.

 

[A-driver]

Which is presupposing the preference of those who didn't vote. Whose to say that group of people did or didn't want George Osborne as MP?

Absolutely. Which is exactly what's wrong with the proposed TU Bill. The TU bill assumes that anyone not voting is backing the 'no' camp. They may well have wanted to vote 'yes' but lost the ballot or missed the deadline or perhaps just couldn't organise themselves enough to actually vote. Or, as I said earlier, they may just be happy to go with the majority who do vote.

At the moment, anyone who dosnt vote is not counted either way-the exact same applies to George osbournes election result.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The "subtle difference" between the two comparisons that I made in my earlier posting is that the Trades Union ballot would cover a range of possible options but basically all based upon different options of the same premise, but In a General Election, an abstention could cover the abhorrence of expressed views of any one of the candidates standing for election, of which none of us know whom it is.



After our posting exchanges in 2015, I would sincerely like to take this opportunity to wish you a Happy Christmas and a good New Year.

And a happy new year and merry Xmas to yourself aswell.

 

[northwichcat]

Which is presupposing the preference of those who didn't vote. Whose to say that group of people did or didn't want George Osborne as MP?

Well yes if everyone was forced to vote some of the people who didn't vote might have voted for Osborne.

However, there is the situation where people want a certain party to be in government opposed to electing a certain person. In the case of Tatton some Conservatives party members feel Osborne was forced on them in 2001 when they wanted Edward Timpson to stand for Tatton. That doesn't mean they vote UKIP or someone else because they didn't want Osborne.

In the case of the Union ballots they might propose strikes stating 5 reasons and some people may agree with some of the arguments but not all of them.

 

[TDK]

This thread is about the strike action and reasons for and not George Osbourn which has nothing to do with the proposed strike.

 

[A-driver]

This thread is about the strike action and reasons for and not George Osbourn which has nothing to do with the proposed strike.

When discussing a strike and the associated ballot at this time it's pretty justifiable to discuss the proposed TU laws and how it would affect the current strike.

 

[Robertj21a]

When discussing a strike and the associated ballot at this time it's pretty justifiable to discuss the proposed TU laws and how it would affect the current strike.

True, but keep it to those issues, George Osborne has nothing directly to do with it.

 

[TDK]

This is a quote by the HR director of ATW within the media:-

“Our immediate focus is to negotiate the soonest possible agreement with the unions regarding train drivers conditions so that, together, we can keep our promise to our customers.”

I have read a few public quotes and tweets blaming the drivers for the strike and saying they are greedy and have no support for them - nothing in this quote mentions pay !!!!!

 

[Llanigraham]

This is a quote by the HR director of ATW within the media:-

“Our immediate focus is to negotiate the soonest possible agreement with the unions regarding train drivers conditions so that, together, we can keep our promise to our customers.”

I have read a few public quotes and tweets blaming the drivers for the strike and saying they are greedy and have no support for them - nothing in this quote mentions pay !!!!!

Because a lot of people don't bother finding out the facts before they Tweet, etc and PRESUME it is a strike about pay.

 

[Minilad]

In the twittersphere all strikes must be about pay. And all the strikers should be grateful they have jobs. And the train drivers are always on strike

 

[Gareth Marston]

In the twittersphere all strikes must be about pay. And all the strikers should be grateful they have jobs. And the train drivers are always on strike

Good job that ASLEF are so articulate about this one I'd get confused otherwise.