ATW to Rebrand Gerald Premier Service

[headshot119]

I would also comment that usage of the train in its current guise is highest between Shrewsbury and Cardiff - that's why while the reports from Wrexham are worth noting, they're not necessarily representative of the whole service loadings.

To be honest as a fairly regular user of the morning WAG though much less
Frequent of the evening WAG I tend to find the reports of the Wrexham loadings on here completely at odds with what I experience.

 

[Gareth Marston]

To be honest as a fairly regular user of the morning WAG though much less
Frequent of the evening WAG I tend to find the reports of the Wrexham loadings on here completely at odds with what I experience.

ATW have admitted that the loading from north wales to South Wales generally are highly variable and not constant. I'm sure that the observations at Wrexham are correct as are your experiences. It's a flow that is spiky depending on day of week,direction of travel, time of year, political timetable in Bay etc.

It's somewhat like the through trains from Pwllheli to Birmingham when people do want to go there very busy but on a wet Wednesday in February there hardly worth the effort.

 

[merlodlliw]

I would also comment that usage of the train in its current guise is highest between Shrewsbury and Cardiff - that's why while the reports from Wrexham are worth noting, they're not necessarily representative of the whole service loadings.

I would probably agree, depends where you board the train, it runs via Wrexham purely for political reasons, this week with Cardiff Bay shut down, Gerald will be lightly loaded, as the majority on board usually appear to be from the statutory sector.Has I stated, yesterday morning I was on Wrexham General doing SCRUA line duty with a colleague, I have never seen Gerald with so few passengers on board with only a handful boarding, today could be different of course.
Another thing I noted was the late running VT departed Wrexham(0712) with 32 boarding & left without waiting for the late running feeder passengers 0610 off Shrewsbury to Wrexham which arrived 20 late. At 0755 there were over 60 waiting for the late running 0800 to Chester and Llandudno.
I just mention this has a comparator out of interest during school half term. The 0747 Wrexham/Birmingham had 18 boarding.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I would probably agree, depends where you board the train, it runs via Wrexham purely for political reasons, this week with Cardiff Bay shut down, Gerald will be lightly loaded, as the majority on board usually appear to be from the statutory sector.Has I stated, yesterday morning I was on Wrexham General doing SCRUA line duty with a colleague, I have never seen Gerald with so few passengers on board with only a handful boarding, today could be different of course.
Another thing I noted was the late running VT departed Wrexham(0712) with 32 boarding & left without waiting for the late running feeder passengers 0610 off Shrewsbury to Wrexham which arrived 20 late. At 0755 there were over 60 waiting for the late running 0800 to Chester and Llandudno.
I just mention this has a comparator out of interest during school half term. The 0747 Wrexham/Birmingham had 18 boarding.

Don't think you can draw any firm conclusions from October Half term week surveys you need them at other times as well. Beeching did one week a wet by all accounts late April week after Easter holidays and decided it was the average for year!

If I went toa Machynlleth this week I'd draw the conclusion that through trains from Pwllheli aren't worth it and loadings on coast line non existent.

 

[merlodlliw]

Don't think you can draw any firm conclusions from October Half term week surveys you need them at other times as well. Beeching did one week a wet by all accounts late April week after Easter holidays and decided it was the average for year!

If I went toa Machynlleth this week I'd draw the conclusion that through trains from Pwllheli aren't worth it and loadings on coast line non existent.

agree with you,the other stations were done weeks ago,Wrexham should have been surveyed last week, but due to the proposed strike we cancelled it.we will give it another go next week,to all other forum members, it is a survey to save the 0747 Wrexham/Birmingham service, we were successful before in saving the service when ATW tried to cancel it when Gerald was sent via Wrexham taking the Birmingham path,ATW tried it on, but failed.
Now ATW want the 158 for the Cambrian hourly service and blame Welsh Government.

Bob

 

[PHILIPE]

Don't think you can draw any firm conclusions from October Half term week surveys you need them at other times as well. Beeching did one week a wet by all accounts late April week after Easter holidays and decided it was the average for year!

If I went toa Machynlleth this week I'd draw the conclusion that through trains from Pwllheli aren't worth it and loadings on coast line non existent.

Talk about surveys. I recall back in the 60s before computerised info available, "razor gangs" being sent out to analyse freight traffic with a view to making cuts. They used to turn up in the Annual Works Holidays.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Talk about surveys. I recall back in the 60s before computerised info available, "razor gangs" being sent out to analyse freight traffic with a view to making cuts. They used to turn up in the Annual Works Holidays.

Those sort of dirty tricks would be very hard to pull these days without people challenging. Indeed I heard that Teddy's came out the pram big time back in the early 1990's when someone tried to suggest it and was told that they'd never get away with it in these modern times!

 

[merlodlliw]

Those sort of dirty tricks would be very hard to pull these days without people challenging. Indeed I heard that Teddy's came out the pram big time back in the early 1990's when someone tried to suggest it and was told that they'd never get away with it in these modern times!

I like the word razor gangs,I agree the clip board types wont get away with it now,our visit to Wrexham General on Tuesday morning,found the infamous new lift to platform four is still not working, three years and counting since it was installed,the large diesel generator to operate it has been removed,now we have a security firm on duty 0600 to midnight in case someone needs to use it,i wont say on an open website what the unbelievable procedure is,i was also told the generator was removed due to it taking up the entire lift area car park next to platform one.ATW and its car park management company NCP were not too happy about losing revenue. Sorry I wander away from the subject of the thread

 

[Rhydgaled]

The 158 starts the day in Carmarthen, then goes to Pembroke Dock, then across to Newport before doing the boat train to Fishguard.

And, if I remember correctly what I've read on here, the 158 gets to Carmarthen after working Gloucester-Fishguard-Clarbeston Rd.-Fishguard-Carmarthen the day before. Both the boat train and Gloucester-Fishguard seem to be prone to getting a 150 vice the booked 158 though.

It's worth noting that you can do some pretty decent foodservice-type food using a microwave - most pub food these days is served using a combination of a microwave and a chip fryer/steak griddle. The Caledonian Sleeper lounge car has a restaurant-car feel to it, and that is mainly provided by the serving of the food on proper plates etc. And DB restaurant cars mainly serve microwaved fayre - certainly the Bistros do.

Personally I suspect I would use such a thing more if it were (a) open to standard passengers, and (b) more reasonably priced rather than being a premium facility

That's my opinion too, and what I'd like to see on IEP rather than 1st-class-only hot food. Also, I would think reasonably priced meals would be more useful to passengers than having just the really expensive premium offerings (eg. FirstGW Pullman) but no other hot meal service.

When I went on this service (albeit Standard Class) the train which was then departed Cardiff at 16:17 went via Crewe and was actually busier between Crewe and Llandudno Jn (where I got off), than between Cardiff and Crewe. Not helped by non-stopping at Hereford I would suggest. However Crewe had the big traffic flow with people seemingly heading onward towards Holyhead.

I would also comment that usage of the train in its current guise is highest between Shrewsbury and Cardiff - that's why while the reports from Wrexham are worth noting, they're not necessarily representative of the whole service loadings.

I expect this sort of thing goes on quite often with the regular Holyhead-Cardiff services too, there are probablly some which are busy Cardiff-Chester and others which are busy Chester-Bangor/Holyhead. That's part of the reason I think they should be split into two services at Chester, so the 3-car 175s can be targeted at the busier services.

 

[merlodlliw]

I was speaking to my local AM yesterday,he appeared to think the catering service was ending with effect from 1st December.

This has not been officially confirmed by Welsh Government or ATW who run the train on their behalf.

Another interesting Tit Bit, The Wagair service whose current contract ends in December, flying Valley to Cardiff twice a day and funded by Welsh Government.
I was told Welsh Government(WG) have put the service out again to tender, the closing date was October, for a new service from December.
So it would appear of the two Welsh Government funded services, Gerald and Wagair, Gerald looses the catering, one wonders if WG did not own Cardiff Airport
would the little used air service have flown into oblivion, be interesting to see if WG have cut the current subsidy to Wagair as well.

 

[berneyarms]

I was speaking to my local AM yesterday,he appeared to think the catering service was ending with effect from 1st December.

This has not been officially confirmed by Welsh Government or ATW who run the train on their behalf.

Another interesting Tit Bit, The Wagair service whose current contract ends in December, flying Valley to Cardiff twice a day and funded by Welsh Government.
I was told Welsh Government(WG) have put the service out again to tender, the closing date was October, for a new service from December.
So it would appear of the two Welsh Government funded services, Gerald and Wagair, Gerald looses the catering, one wonders if WG did not own Cardiff Airport
would the little used air service have flown into oblivion, be interesting to see if WG have cut the current subsidy to Wagair as well.

Can we be clear here - there is a difference between the travelling chef being withdrawn and catering being withdrawn.

The RMT statement suggested that the chef would be replaced by a microwave - that is not the same as catering being withdrawn. That would suggest to me that meals would still be available but would not be freshly cooked.

Perhaps you can seek clarification on this?

 

[merlodlliw]

Ive just been sent this info(last July)about costings for Gerald

"Taxpayers have spent almost £22m on an express train with its own travelling chef which links North and South Wales, it has been revealed.

The cost was obtained by the Welsh Conservatives, who are questioning the service’s value for money and have hit out at the difficulty in obtaining figures about the service.

The Welsh Government disclosed in a Freedom of Information request that it had incurred £21.6m in capital and revenue costs from the service’s launch in December 2008 to the end of 2013-14.

The train has four coaches – three for standard-class passengers and a fourth coach for Premier passengers who receive a complimentary meal, cooked to order by the travelling chef.

The service runs during the week from Holyhead to Cardiff and back again in the evening. In 2013-14 the train’s subsidy was £2.69m."

link http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/taxpayers-spend-22m-express-train-7380170

Ill also ask two AMs about the catering from December, is it just the Chefs or all train catering to go.

 

[trentside]

It would appear according to the RMT all jobs are at risk, I am aware ATW are in discussions with all catering staff assigned to Gerald.
The two Chefs on whatever duty overnight at Rhyl,the girls operate out of Holyhead,some say the girls spend seven hours at Newport in between shifts?I have also heard some return on franchise services,others may know better, but the seven hour lay up at Cardiff cant help staffing shifts & hours.

The catering staff spend their layover at Canton depot - from what they told me they have a room there that allows them to sleep and relax, as they work a 17 hour day. From what I gathered they worked 3 days per week, each.

 

[merlodlliw]

The catering staff spend their layover at Canton depot - from what they told me they have a room there that allows them to sleep and relax, as they work a 17 hour day. From what I gathered they worked 3 days per week, each.

So things have changed since 2008, a 17 hour work day when employed by ATW is almost like a gang masters dream come true. I am amazed.

 

[TDK]

I would probably agree, depends where you board the train, it runs via Wrexham purely for political reasons, this week with Cardiff Bay shut down, Gerald will be lightly loaded, as the majority on board usually appear to be from the statutory sector.Has I stated, yesterday morning I was on Wrexham General doing SCRUA line duty with a colleague, I have never seen Gerald with so few passengers on board with only a handful boarding, today could be different of course.
Another thing I noted was the late running VT departed Wrexham(0712) with 32 boarding & left without waiting for the late running feeder passengers 0610 off Shrewsbury to Wrexham which arrived 20 late. At 0755 there were over 60 waiting for the late running 0800 to Chester and Llandudno.
I just mention this has a comparator out of interest during school half term. The 0747 Wrexham/Birmingham had 18 boarding.

If you take Gerald out and replace it with a 175 the loading will be identical if you take out the spotters and AM's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can we be clear here - there is a difference between the travelling chef being withdrawn and catering being withdrawn.

The RMT statement suggested that the chef would be replaced by a microwave - that is not the same as catering being withdrawn. That would suggest to me that meals would still be available but would not be freshly cooked.

Perhaps you can seek clarification on this?

The RMT are using this as propaganda, are the Chefs RMT members and to be fair there are only 2 or 3 of them? Once again I think the new RMT leader is trying to be a Crow without success. What the RMT should have done was to ensure they were not working 17 hour days and also they should now be negotiating for alternative employment for them.

 

[Squaddie]

So things have changed since 2008, a 17 hour work day when employed by ATW is almost like a gang masters dream come true. I am amazed.

If the same crew work the entire round trip of the Premier service (depart Holyhead 05:33, arrive back 21:45) then it is inevitable that they will work a 17-hour day.

Whether or not that can be called a "gangmaster's dream come true" depends on the conditions the staff work under, and whether they get paid for the entire shift including the time they spend in Cardiff. I would imagine they might enjoy having a job that allows them several hours free in the capital city three times a week for coffee, lunch or shopping.

 

[merlodlliw]

Been informed Gerald cancelled this morning due to a train fault.Presume 175 with trolley service

 

[NJTom]

Failed at Rhyl last night. Made me late home AGAIN. Also, the following serices were unable to call at Rhyl.

 

[krus_aragon]

Failed at Rhyl last night. Made me late home AGAIN. Also, the following serices were unable to call at Rhyl.

It's now limping home to Canton: 5Z84 on RTT.

 

[merlodlliw]

NJTom Failed at Rhyl last night. Made me late home AGAIN. Also, the following services were unable to call at Rhyl.

At least the Chef got to his lodgings at Rhyl. Did ATW provide road transport?

Kris Aragon It's now limping home to Canton: 5Z84 on RTT.

Presume the spare set will be used this evening, or will it be a 175 with a trolley,shades of things to come. But Gerald appears to be failing often now,no wonder a travelling fitter is to be in attendance on the new Manchester/North Wales loco haul services from December.(rewritten thread since Philipes response on thread 111)

 

[PHILIPE]

So I presume unless the spare set is used this evening, its a 175 with a trolley,shades of things to come, however Gerald seems to fail very often now.

Seems to be 175 with trolley according to ATW Journey Check.

 

[merlodlliw]

Seems to be 175 with trolley according to ATW Journey Check.

Thats correct it is a 175 this evening,why are ATW not using the spare set, is that in repair as well,look like a 175 on Wednesday morning.

 

[berneyarms]

At least the Chef got to his lodgings at Rhyl. Did ATW provide road transport?


Presume the spare set will be used this evening, or will it be a 175 with a trolley,shades of things to come. But Gerald appears to be failing often now,no wonder a travelling fitter is to be in attendance on the new Manchester/North Wales loco haul services from December.(rewritten thread since Philipes response on thread 111)

This is pure speculation (bolded section).

As I stated at the weekend, we don't even know exactly what is planned in terms of catering going forward.

There has been no suggestion that the loco hauled train is going to be withdrawn in December as this statement implies. There is the issue of what happens next May. But that is an entirely separate issue from that of the chefs and catering on board the train.

Making statements as that above is just confusing the issue. We really need to stick to what we know, and all that is in the public arena at present is that the chefs' jobs are under threat.

 

[trainophile]

Friday 12th December appears to be the last date that a First Class seat is bookable at 0856 from Hereford and 1716 from Cardiff.

 

[causton]

I was on Gerald last night, when it failed at Rhyl. We were about 5 or so minutes down and when we tried to pull out of Rhyl, the train stopped straight away after.

Long story short, no brake release available from the DVT but loco was fine, we were told the set was to go back to Crewe to be fixed. A VT and ATW train passed us on the avoiding line and then the train limped back, in time for the 2150 (bearing in mind we had been there since 2035, and turfed off the train at about 2115) VT to pick us all up!

So thank you ATW for the free meal!

Edit: Do not know where the train went after that, it certainly did not stay at Rhyl, so did it get back there somehow without a loco? Or is there a loop or sidings somewhere nearby it would have gone into? The route it took seems to imply it can still only be driven from the loco, i.e. no reversal at Chester.
Double Edit: Just realised I should have bloody seen it as I was on the 1127 Holyhead - Birmingham train! If I'd have seen that it hadn't reached Crewe last night I would have watched out for it as I passed...

 

[krus_aragon]

Edit: Do not know where the train went after that, it certainly did not stay at Rhyl, so did it get back there somehow without a loco? Or is there a loop or sidings somewhere nearby it would have gone into?

As well as the down main line that you saw trains pass you along (platform 2 is on a loop) there are two sidings off the down loop at Rhyl. Some daytime images here.

The route it took seems to imply it can still only be driven from the loco, i.e. no reversal at Chester.

Possibly. It could also be that it was easier to path it the long way via Crewe rather than find a slot on the single line to Wrexham.

 

[Penmorfa]

Edit: Do not know where the train went after that, it certainly did not stay at Rhyl, so did it get back there somehow without a loco? Or is there a loop or sidings somewhere nearby it would have gone into? The route it took seems to imply it can still only be driven from the loco, i.e. no reversal at Chester.
Double Edit: Just realised I should have bloody seen it as I was on the 1127 Holyhead - Birmingham train! If I'd have seen that it hadn't reached Crewe last night I would have watched out for it as I passed...

The train was put in the engineers sidings to the east of Rhyl station and it left for Cardiff at 13.45 today

 

[Starmill]

Friday 12th December appears to be the last date that a First Class seat is bookable at 0856 from Hereford and 1716 from Cardiff.

Definitely still 1st Advances on sale and First Class Accommodation on those services is in the timetable.

 

[merlodlliw]

This is pure speculation (bolded section).

As I stated at the weekend, we don't even know exactly what is planned in terms of catering going forward.

There has been no suggestion that the loco hauled train is going to be withdrawn in December as this statement implies. There is the issue of what happens next May. But that is an entirely separate issue from that of the chefs and catering on board the train.

Making statements as that above is just confusing the issue. We really need to stick to what we know, and all that is in the public arena at present is that the chefs' jobs are under threat.

The statement I made refers to the new Manchester/North Wales loco hauled train that commences in December,not Gerald, how have I confused the issue,I never implied Gerald would end in December.

Has for the catering etc, I have asked a local AM to write to ATW,asking four questions, see below,The AMs e mail to me

I would be grateful if you could respond to the questions below which were recently raised with me by a constituent



Does the withdrawal of the travelling Chef from the Premier Service from Holyhead to Cardiff mean:



1. A Buffet service open to all passengers?

2. Will there be a withdrawal of 1st Class?

3. Will a trolley service be available?

4. When will this be implemented?

I will publish the answers,when I receive them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As well as the down main line that you saw trains pass you along (platform 2 is on a loop) there are two sidings off the down loop at Rhyl. Some daytime images here.

Krus, through your wizardly, was the set repaired in Canton last evening and then sent back up North overnight, I dont see any ATW apologies for this morning

Suppose it was lucky it failed on the loop at Rhyl

 

[berneyarms]

The statement I made refers to the new Manchester/North Wales loco hauled train that commences in December,not Gerald, how have I confused the issue,I never implied Gerald would end in December.

Has for the catering etc, I have asked a local AM to write to ATW,asking four questions, see below,The AMs e mail to me


I will publish the answers,when I receive them.

All of post #110 (which was what I quoted) appeared to me to be about Gerald, except the last sentence - that's why I made the comment when I saw mention of a 175 and a trolley being shades of things to come - I just think we all need to be careful about our phraseology given the confusion/uncertainties involved.

I will look forward to the answers to those questions. I would have asked also, whether a meal facility (microwave or otherwise) would still be provided. A buffet might only provide light snacks!