ATW's new Loco's

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TrainFanSam

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Ok my thread is to do with Arriva's recent change of loco's on their Holyhead to Cardiff services..... What i cant understand is why they haven't replaced their 57's with the Voyagers from their Cross Country brand? Instead they went with RENTED 67's!!!!

I just wanna know what you guys think of it and should they have used Voyagers on the route?
 
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Michael.Y

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First of all, this should be in the Traction subforum.

Secondly, what would you replace the lost XC Voyagers with?

All train stock is leased anyway, no TOC owns any of their trains outright (with the exception of FGW owning a few HSTs IIRC)
 

jopsuk

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The 67s and coaches are available- they aren't in use. Th 57s that they've been using are, as I understand it, sub-leased from Virgin who lease them from the ROSCO anyway.
Cross Country do not have Voyagers to spare- this is evident as they had to bring HSTs back into use on the XC network.
 

merlodlliw

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Ok my thread is to do with Arriva's recent change of loco's on their Holyhead to Cardiff services..... What i cant understand is why they haven't replaced their 57's with the Voyagers from their Cross Country brand? Instead they went with RENTED 67's!!!!

I just wanna know what you guys think of it and should they have used Voyagers on the route?
The service you mention is open access, paid for by WG,all voyagers are franchise & can not be used for O/A even though ATW & XC are under DB.
ATW had special dispensation to use a 175 for OA for six months which overran
and resulted in ATW getting a caution from the ORR.
The 57s were pulled due to unreliability.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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You could imagine Arriva using more HSTs on XC (which do seem to exist) in order to free up Voyagers for other work, which could conceivably include the ATW WAG train.
But it won't happen because Arriva won't stump up the extra HST leasing cost, when they have spare (owned) Mk3 stock lying about.
There are also franchise agreements which mandate using their Voyagers on XC services.
But if anyone is asking, in fantasy land I'd be delighted to travel on a Voyager from Holyhead to Cardiff.
A 4-car unit would be ideal - how about the lone 221 141, restored to VT-type catering?
It knows its way to Holyhead, having been nominally acquired for North Wales services to start with.
 

TDK

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First of all, this should be in the Traction subforum.

Secondly, what would you replace the lost XC Voyagers with?

All train stock is leased anyway, no TOC owns any of their trains outright (with the exception of FGW owning a few HSTs IIRC)
Chiltern own all their mark 3 coaches and DVT's and this is one reason why LHCS services are more economical than hiring units rom the roscos. As for the OP unfortunately the OP does not understand the complexity of unit diagrams and indeed what would the Voyagers be replaced with? And just to add it is a waste using a 125mph set on a route that is mainly a top line speed of 90mph
 

jopsuk

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And just to add it is a waste using a 125mph set on a route that is mainly a top line speed of 90mph
If it wasn't for the problems caused by the axle weight of the 67s, a 67 + mark 3 +DVT formation is theoretically a 125mph train.
 

sprinterguy

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They do? Where are these spare HSTs? I was under the impression that all were accounted for with TOCs, is this not the case?
That is most certainly my understanding. The fact that Grand Central had to convert loco hauled mark 3s into HST vehicles to provide themselves with enough carriages (And, to a lesser extent, that FGW are converting buffet cars to provide additional standard class vehicles) points strongly to the fact that there aren’t any spare HST formations. There’s definitely no spare power cars.

Crosscountry could diagram their existing HSTs more intensively all of the time though: They seem to go through periods of utilising 4 out of 5 of their sets, but then drop back to using only 2 or 3.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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That is most certainly my understanding. The fact that Grand Central had to convert loco hauled mark 3s into HST vehicles to provide themselves with enough carriages (And, to a lesser extent, that FGW are converting buffet cars to provide additional standard class vehicles) points strongly to the fact that there aren’t any spare HST formations. There’s definitely no spare power cars.

Crosscountry could diagram their existing HSTs more intensively all of the time though: They seem to go through periods of utilising 4 out of 5 of their sets, but then drop back to using only 2 or 3.
That's what I meant.
XC must not be leasing all four sets or they would be using them.
And to me converted loco Mk3s sandwiched by power cars equals HST.

All I'd say is that you would expect DB to maximise its utilisation of owned/leased stock within the group (and that includes DB 67s), subject to franchise agreements
 

Kettledrum

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Crosscountry could diagram their existing HSTs more intensively all of the time though: They seem to go through periods of utilising 4 out of 5 of their sets, but then drop back to using only 2 or 3.
I assumed it was down to money. HSTs are heavy on the track wear and tear and probably fuel consumption too. Therefore, although X Country have the HSTs available to them, if they can "get away" without using them , they will, because it saves the firm money.

This is very frustrating from a passenger perspective, because it's not nice to be squeezed in a 2 or 3 coach X country service, knowing that there are very comfortable HSTs sitting around at the X country depot not being used.

I know some will always have to be out of service for maintenance etc, but is optimum use being made of X country's HST fleet?
 

DarloRich

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Ok my thread is to do with Arriva's recent change of loco's on their Holyhead to Cardiff services..... What i cant understand is why they haven't replaced their 57's with the Voyagers from their Cross Country brand? Instead they went with RENTED 67's!!!!

I just wanna know what you guys think of it and should they have used Voyagers on the route?
Sam in an ideal world using hired in locomotives/stock when, on the face of it, XC have other more suitable stock does seem a tad preposterous.

However, we do not live in an ideal world and XC are governed by their franchise and contractual requirements to use that, seemingly more suitable stock, in a different way. That is before their internal commercial pressures and decisions are brought to bear which may play a part in helping the company select which stock is used on which route. We must also consider if the infrastructure is suitable for the use by Voyager trains and whether, or not, a relatively low speed, long distance, low passenger number rural route, is the best place to utilise scare 125mph capable units.

This, therefore, means that Arriva have little option to hire in stock to operate this service. So you see those good people at XC may well want to use their lovely voyager trains on the Welsh services but they are forbidden from doing so by the current franchising stipulations.

However, assuming that Arriva did use the XC Voyager fleet on their WAG services we generate another problem. What would XC use to replace their lovely Voyager trains on the core XC services?

In an ideal world the TOC would be incentivised to do this and select suitable rolling stock to a high standard from the numerous train builders (or even their own internal construction centre) without having to deal with a ROSCO. However, unfortunately, thanks to the fragmented nature of the privatised British Railway Network this is not the case. Stock levels have been cut so low that their simply isn’t the level of spare or stand by coaching stock that we once saw. This has had an impact on both operational flexibility and the potential to run new or improved services, such as the WAG.

Finally, as the WAG service is heavily subsidised by the Welsh Government it would be highly unlikely that any TOC would wish to take the commercial risk in operating such a service should that generous subsidy be removed. You see with out that subsidy in the harsh financial world in which we live (rather than the ideal world many people seem to occupy) there simply wouldn’t be the need for XC to transfer any stock as the service simply wouldn’t exist in the format it does today.
 

TGVDUDE

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First of all, this should be in the Traction subforum.

Secondly, what would you replace the lost XC Voyagers with?

All train stock is leased anyway, no TOC owns any of their trains outright (with the exception of FGW owning a few HSTs IIRC)
DBS own their 66s/67s iirc? as do DRS with their heritage traction?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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DBS own their 66s/67s iirc? as do DRS with their heritage traction?
Angel Trains own the Class 67 fleet.
I assume they are all leased to DB Schenker, but it may not be quite like that.
Anyway DB are taking the cost risk on the locos they have leased, and sub-lease to Chiltern/ATW will help cover those costs.
 

Tiny Tim

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Is the current situation flawed and does it need changing?
It's a matter of opinion, the RoSCos don't have the same agenda as the TOCs, leading to mismatches and shortages of rolling stock. The upside might be that there isn't a lot of money wasted in trains lying idle. I suppose my take would be that it's efficient, but not effective. As for changing it, it isn't something that can be tinkered with, it would involve very substantial changes which presently aren't likely to happen.
 
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