Authorised Collectors - Station Staff? (LOROL complaint)

[ChristopherJ]

Had a run in with some little (insert) on the Overground this morning. Have sent this to the MD of London Overground. Your thoughts?

"Dear Mr. Steve Murphy,

I would like to report a personal complaint to you as the Managing Director of the operation concession for the London Overground railway network.

During this morning on Tuesday 13/11/12, I was subject to harassment from a member of LOROL station staff at South Tottenham on the Gospel Oak - Barking Line.

I approached South Tottenham at approximately 11:30 hrs and proceeded to enter the station and walk up the ramp passing the station staff cabin towards the platforms to board a train. South Tottenham is like a majority of stations on this particular route devoid of ticket barriers and is an open station. Today I was in possession of a Zone 1-6 paper Travelcard which was a valid ticket for my journey, however upon passing the red line stating "you are now entering a Penalty Fares zone" a member of station staff rushed out of the staff cabin and proceeded to chase me up the stairs and screaming at me to "tap my Oyster card in or be subject to a penalty fare or the police will be called". I turned to face the member of staff and stated that I was not in possession of an Oyster card but a conventional paper ticket - the member of staff then aggressively demanded that I produce my ticket.

I am aware that to demand and check a railway ticket is only the responsibility of an 'authorised collector' which I understand is the like of Revenue Protection Inspectors (Officers?) and not station staff, so therefore I believe I was subject to having to produce my ticket to an authorised person. Having checked my ticket the member of staff shrugged his shoulders and merely replied "okay, go" and walked back to the cabin.

I was particularly angry at this incident because I was felt to be made a fare evader without cause of evidence. Unfortunately I did not get the name of the member of staff because they were devoid of name badge but the member of staff was xxx skin colour, xxx decent, approximately xx-xx years old. A couple of other members of staff were also on duty at the same time of the incident but did not pursue me. The incident occurred at approximately 11:30 hrs. It should be recorded on CCTV on the stairway to the eastbound (Barking) platform.

Thank you for taking your time to read my complaint, I am an avid fan of London Overground and am hugely proud at the modernisation and investment both TfL and LOROL have completed to the Greater London railway network. I look forward to the opening of the South London Line."

 

[talltim]

There's a typo; 'decent' Vs 'descent'.
Also, the message seems a bit garbled, I understand that you were upset, but not sure of the relevance of the authorised collector element, you haven't stated that you had a problem showing a member of station staff so does it matter?

 

[tsr]

Unless you have followed the formal complaints procedure, complained to your relevant passenger liaison body, etc., you may not find you are treated very sympathetically by whomever opens the post of the MD!

 

[hluraven]

Fairly sure the South London Line has been open for a very long time, and the service known as South London Line will cease rather than open in December!

 

[ChristopherJ]

There's a typo; 'decent' Vs 'descent'.
Also, the message seems a bit garbled, I understand that you were upset, but not sure of the relevance of the authorised collector element, you haven't stated that you had a problem showing a member of station staff so does it matter?

Yes, it does matter. AFAIK they're not entitled to check tickets.

Unless you have followed the formal complaints procedure, complained to your relevant passenger liaison body, etc., you may not find you are treated very sympathetically by whomever opens the post of the MD!

It hasn't been sent by post, I called LOROL at Finchley Road HQ and got the e-mail of the MD.

 

[steamybrian]

It was my understanding that you should show your ticket to any member of railway staff upon demand. This could include station staff, guard, conductor, ticket barrier staff, etc. Where did you buy the ticket ? What was the problem of showing your ticket to the staff if your ticket was valid.? I do not complain if any member of railway staff wants to see my ticket.
To validate your complaint the MD may ask if you still retain the ticket, how and where you paid for your ticket.?

 

[ChristopherJ]

To validate your complaint the MD may ask if you still retain the ticket, how and where you paid for your ticket.?

No skin off my nose. Said 1-6 TC is sitting here in my wallet on my desk, going to be using it later after the peak hour dies down. If LOROL want it they can have it.

 

[talltim]

Yes, it does matter. AFAIK they're not entitled to check tickets.

But you don't seem to be complaining that you had to show your ticket to a member of station staff, but about their attitude. If you had refused to show it to them because they weren't authorised and then that caused more trouble that it would be relevant to your complaint, but as it is its justa side issue.

 

[Mojo]

The TfL conditions of carriage state that ''you must let a member of staff or a Police Officer examine it at any time during your journey if they ask you to do so.'' The concept of Authorised Collectors only applies to those staff who are entitled to collect Penalty Fares. Further, the TfL Railway byelaws requires that ''a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.''

I would suggest that you revise your complaint to focus on the inappropriate manner with which the member of staff spoke to you and leave out anything about their entitlement to inspect tickets or not.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am aware that to demand and check a railway ticket is only the responsibility of an 'authorised collector' which I understand is the like of Revenue Protection Inspectors (Officers?) and not station staff, so therefore I believe I was subject to having to produce my ticket to an authorised person.

That initial assumption is completely wrong, railway station staff can definitely ask to see your ticket (as others have said already).

But as far as I can see you contradict yourself then anyway, when using the word 'authorised', when in the context of your previous assumption I'd have expected you to put 'unauthorised'. It would however have made sense if you'd written:

"...so therefore I believed I was only required to produce my ticket to an authorised person."

In any case, writing to the MD as soon as you feel aggreived is not the way to do this sort of thing. His PA will just divert your letter to the normal channel.

 

[Monty]

As others have already mentioned, authorised collectors applies to only those who collect penalty fares. All members of rail staff are entitled to ask for and check your rail ticket. Not that I would condone the member of staff's behaviour, but I would suggest you correct the obvious errors in your complaint, focus on the bad behaviour of the staff member and address it to the appropriate body.

 

[tsr]

...but I would correct suggest yohector text the obvious errors to your complaint...

That's an interesting procedure!

 

[Goatboy]

Letter comes across as a pointlessly shouty rant of the type they must get many every day. If you want it to be taken seriously I suggest you re-word it and try and sound a bit more professional.

 

[Monty]

That's an interesting procedure!

Using an iPhone to post on internet forums has it's hazards!

 

[tsr]

Using an iPhone to post on internet forums has it's hazards!

It does! Any typos in my posts are usually due to the unavoidable inadequacies of the iOS keyboard size. :P

 

[3141]

Some of the posts on this thread seem quite hostile towards the letter which djxc6 proposes to send, or maybe has now sent. I think he is basically right. All it needs is amending to ensure it's factually correct in relation to the matter of which staff can ask to check a ticket. The substance of the complaint is the attitude of the staff member who approached him today and spoke in a way that suggested an attempt to avoid payment had been intercepted.

If staff wish to check tickets of passengers entering a station they should place themselves in a suitable position. No-one should object to that. They shouldn't rush out of a building after a passenger has passed and address them in terms that imply the passenger is trying to avoid paying for his journey.

 

[island]

Staff member overreacted, but was entitled to check the ticket. Write in to customer service if you must, but why do you want to write to the MD?

 

[johnnychips]

xxx skin colour, xxx decent, approximately xx-xx years old.

Quite decent, half-decent, indecent?

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm confused as to why you didn't just complain through the normal channels about the allegedly accusatory manner in which the staff member addressed you; and instead emailed the MD about authorised collectors.

The TfL conditions of carriage state that ''you must let a member of staff or a Police Officer examine it at any time during your journey if they ask you to do so.'' The concept of Authorised Collectors only applies to those staff who are entitled to collect Penalty Fares. Further, the TfL Railway byelaws requires that ''a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.''

If the paper travelcard was issued by a TOC and not LUL (the OP hasn't told us which), will the TfL conditions of carriage necessarily apply in addition to the NRCoC?
If its a TOC ticket, the NRCoC states you must show the ticket to the staff of a Train Company anyway (of which LOROL is one)

You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket and any relevant Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification in accordance with Condition 15. [...]

Interestingly, the NRCoC appear to place no onus on a TOC-issued-ticketholder to show their ticket to LU staff, but I presume this must be covered under the relevant byelaws
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(1)Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid, or pay his fare from the place whence he started, or give the officer or servant his name and address; and in case of default shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding [F1level 1 on the standard scale][F2[F3level 2 on the standard scale]].

I believe an officer or servant of a railway covers the LOROL ticket office staff

 

[Clip]

Interestingly, the NRCoC appear to place no onus on a TOC-issued-ticketholder to show their ticket to LU staff, but I presume this must be covered under the relevant byelaws

Irrelevant, LU stands for London Underground and he wasnt at an underground station.

 

[Mojo]

If the paper travelcard was issued by a TOC and not LUL (the OP hasn't told us which), will the TfL conditions of carriage necessarily apply in addition to the NRCoC?

I got a bit confused with my response. Whilst the TfL Railway Byelaws covers the DLR, Overground and LUL, the TfL Conditions of Carriage only covers buses and LUL. As such, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage apply to the Overground. FWIW, the obligations are basically the same as in the TfL Conditions, in this regard: ''You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket.''

 

[tsr]

''You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company or its agent, hand over for inspection a valid ticket.''

With the commas positioned like that, and taken out-of-context, that reads as if you have to show your ticket to anyone, but you only have to hand it over if they're a member of staff...

 

[Mojo]

Interestingly, the NRCoC appear to place no onus on a TOC-issued-ticketholder to show their ticket to LU staff, but I presume this must be covered under the relevant byelaws

Travel on London Underground is subject to the TfL conditions of carriage and not the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[richw]

Doesnt sound to me like he was definitely harrassing you. From what I've read maybe he chased you as he believed you may have mistakenly not clocked an oyster in, and he was trying to help you not get a penalty. When he realised you weren't an oyster user he was within his rights to inspect your ticket.
This is some blokes livelyhood your putting at risk making such strong allegations of harrassment, when in reality he sounds like he was initially just giving a reminder to swipe oyster.

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[maniacmartin]

I'm aware that London Overground isn't operated by LU. I just put the comment about LU there as it popped into my head when I was thinking about TfL and the NRCoC at the same time, as a sidenote.

Travel on London Underground is subject to the TfL conditions of carriage and not the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Whilst this is true for byelaws, I haven't seen any evidence that that travel on on the Underground would be subject to TfL's Conditions of Carriage if on a TOC ticket.

 

[bicbasher]

Surely the NRCoC would be in operation, even on a Bakerloo line train for example between Queens Park and Harrow and Wealdstone? I remember when you couldn't use a LUL ticket on that stretch.

 

[Nick W]

Or alternatively....

Dear Mr. Steve Murphy,

I have been travelling with London Overground for _ number of years, with very few problems, and have so far always been provided good customer service by your staff. [if true] However, I feel an urgent need to call to your attention a severe departure from the level of customer service I have come to expect.

On the morning of Tuesday 13 November, I was subject to behaviour from a member of station staff at South Tottenham which caused me a great deal of discomfort.

I entered the station at approximately 11:30 and walked up the ramp passing the station staff cabin towards the platforms to board a train, in full possession of a Zone 1-6 paper Travelcard which was a valid ticket for my journey. (The station, like many on the route, is an open station, with no ticket barriers). Upon passing the red line stating "you are now entering a Penalty Fares zone" a member of station staff rushed out of the staff cabin and proceeded to chase me up the stairs. He screamed at me to tap my Oyster card in or else be subject to a penalty fare or the police be called.

I turned to face the member of staff and stated that I was not in possession of an Oyster card but a conventional paper ticket, after which the member of staff aggressively demanded that I produced my ticket.

I understand he is fully entitled to inspect my ticket, however I was deeply distressed by the tone of voice used by the station staff, the peremptory nature of his request and the level of threats without due cause. Furthermore, I felt like I was being accused of seeking to evade my far, and subjected to public shame.

Having checked my ticket the member of staff shrugged his shoulders and merely replied "okay, go" and walked back to the cabin.

I have no doubt, based on the usual customer service received, that you take great pride in how your staff behave towards your customers. I am therefore sure that you will share my distress and wish to investigate this personally and ensure that the right action is taken place to maintain the standards you expect, particular as other innocent customers may be being subjected to a similar ordeal even as you are reading this. I will be delighted to assist in any way.

Unfortunately I did not get the name of the member of staff because they were devoid of name badge but perhaps this description may help: the member of staff was xxx skin colour, xxx descent, approximately xx-xx years old. The incident occurred at approximately 11:30 hrs. It should be recorded on CCTV on the stairway to the eastbound (Barking) platform.

I look forward to hearing from you. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to ask me.

 

[ChristopherJ]

Doesnt sound to me like he was definitely harrassing you. From what I've read maybe he chased you as he believed you may have mistakenly not clocked an oyster in, and he was trying to help you not get a penalty. When he realised you weren't an oyster user he was within his rights to inspect your ticket.
This is some blokes livelyhood your putting at risk making such strong allegations of harrassment, when in reality he sounds like he was initially just giving a reminder to swipe oyster.

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What about calling the police on me if I didn't tap my non-existent Oyster card in? Is that trying to help me?

FYI, my Travelcard was an orange and cream NR issued ticket.

The e-mail has been sent and I was happy with it, I took it to the MD because today complaints travel from the top downwards; not the other way round. I've contacted the MDs of both other TOCs and non-railway companies before regarding complaints or suggestions and got a personal response from the MD that I was more than satisfied. One occasion I wrote an e-mail to an MD of a certain Eastern Region TOC regarding an incident (not staff related) and attached my home address and a few days later got a written and signed response through the post with some free vouchers! So, to all those who believe 'writing to the MD is pointless' - think again...

If I don't get a reply from LOROL within 3 days, then I'll take this to London Travelwatch and the London Standard!

 

[johnnychips]

Sounds a bit hysterical to me. Send the suggested letter and see what happens. But I can't see 'Station Staff Were A Bit Rude To Me!' being headline news, to be honest.

 

[BuhSnarf]

You do realise when you contact the MD with a complaint it's not really dealt with by them, nor do they write the reply.

I work in complaints for a large multi national and anything addressed to our CEO gets dealt with in the same way, but gets a letter signed by them. They don't work the complaint as most of them don't have the time or (in most cases) the knowledge of the system to resolve. In fact they don't even sign the letter it's done by an image or their signature.

Obviously in small companies this is most likely different. But I doubt LO is one of them!

But if it makes you happy, go for it!

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