Avanti Class 221s to Cross Country

[Vexed]

Makes you think, the whole thing would have been cheaper and quicker if EMR just ordered 800/802s!

Which they couldn't do because then they wouldn't fit the platforms at St Pancras.

 

[dk1]

Makes you think, the whole thing would have been cheaper and quicker if EMR just ordered 800/802s!

That wasn't an option.

 

[D365]

Makes you think, the whole thing would have been cheaper and quicker if EMR just ordered 800/802s!

Which they couldn't do because then they wouldn't fit the platforms at St Pancras.

Nine car AT300s should have been the way forward, but it seems that option was discounted very early on. Perhaps this wouldn’t have been possible with the limited stabling available at Etches Park.

Anyway, not relevant to CrossCountry whose Voyager fleet is based at the much more expansive Central Rivers.

 

[Mordac]

Nine car AT300s should have been the way forward, but it seems that option was discounted very early on. Perhaps this wouldn’t have been possible with the limited stabling available at Etches Park.

Anyway, not relevant to CrossCountry whose Voyager fleet is based at the much more expansive Central Rivers.

Wasn't the problem the length of platforms at St. Pancras?

 

[dk1]

Wasn't the problem the length of platforms at St. Pancras?

Yes, dumpy noses on the 810s.

 

[Trainman40083]

Why does crosscountry need staff in each unit when other operators don't seem to? Could they relax this policy?

The other staff member can be a first class host, I understand. I would think it is down to what happens in an emergency. A second crew member could take action.

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't the problem the length of platforms at St. Pancras?

Yes, but 9 x 26m cars would still fit St Pancras at 234m. It was the decision to use short 5 car trains, doubled up in the peaks, that meant a 5+5, (made up of 26m vehicles), would be too long.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but 9 x 26m cars would still fit St Pancras at 234m. It was the decision to use short 5 car trains, doubled up in the peaks, that meant a 5+5, (made up of 26m vehicles), would be too long.

Well the obvious answer to that, which I can’t believe was not pursued, was to buy 4.5car trains and double those up in the peak.

 

[nwales58]

Well the obvious answer to that, which I can’t believe was not pursued, was to buy 4.5car trains and double those up in the peak.

Perfect 80x solution was a mixture of 5 and 4 car trains (shouts out a 25 year old spreadsheet). Spreadsheet recommends 3 classes to maximise profit.

 

[Discuss223]

The other staff member can be a first class host, I understand. I would think it is down to what happens in an emergency. A second crew member could take action.

No, the First Class Hosts can't be the safety crew member, only Retail Service Managers can be the safety appointed member of staff in a unit where there is no Train Manager.

 

[Trainman40083]

No, the First Class Hosts can't be the safety crew member, only Retail Service Managers can be the safety appointed member of staff in a unit where there is no Train Manager.

It would be a whole lot easier with a single 8 car set. Then they may be able to grow passenger numbers even more.

 

[Discuss223]

It would be a whole lot easier with a single 8 car set. Then they may be able to grow passenger numbers even more.

There are times when services can comfortably seat people in a four coach unit, even stretches of the Penzance to Aberdeen route can be lightly loaded at extremities of the route. 1S49 tends to be a double unit, as that runs through some of the biggest cities at the Peak times. The 221s that are coming to CrossCountry from Avanti would often operate as 5 car units on the Welsh coastal services. I rode one from Crewe to Holyhead in First Class and I was the sole passenger for the whole journey beyond Chester. I don't think CrossCountry are that interested in growing customer numbers even more, as they seem to want to restrict demand if anything. For example, they were looking at (may have gone ahead since I last checked) skipping out the Wakefield Westgate calls to stop their trains being filled with Wakefield-Leeds commuters. I could go on but perhaps that would be for a different thread. The five coach 221s coming over will come in handy for the Plymouth-Edinburgh runs that XC often pack out with Advance tickets ( it stems back from HST days when they put the highest capacity on the services that hit cities such as Leeds, Birmingham and Bristol at the busiest times and would offer the lowest price advance tickets to pack it out).

 

[brad465]

Well the obvious answer to that, which I can’t believe was not pursued, was to buy 4.5car trains and double those up in the peak.

Bald Rick being cocky wasn't on my 2024 bingo card

Looking at the seat count on the respective classes' Wiki pages, the 810s have 50-odd seats more than a 5-car 222, while a Class 802 has, depending on interior seat configuration, a staggering 80-100 seats more than a 5-car Class 221. While more 221s will be welcome at XC, I certainly hope they are only an interim solution and bi-modes of some sort do become a future fleet, with Voyagers maybe getting relegated to 170 duties.

 

[Liam L]

Looks like they finished on Avanti today quietly and without any fanfare.

They had fanfare! Photo taken by a friend

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Well the obvious answer to that, which I can’t believe was not pursued, was to buy 4.5car trains and double those up in the peak.

Stadler FLIRT with four passenger vehicles and two 6.7m PowerPacks then?

 

[Bald Rick]

Bald Rick being cocky wasn't on my 2024 bingo card

Looking at the seat count on the respective classes' Wiki pages, the 810s have 50-odd seats more than a 5-car 222, while a Class 802 has, depending on interior seat configuration, a staggering 80-100 seats more than a 5-car Class 221. While more 221s will be welcome at XC, I certainly hope they are only an interim solution and bi-modes of some sort do become a future fleet, with Voyagers maybe getting relegated to 170 duties.

I imagine there will be a long term plan to replace them, subject to usual value for money and affordability criteria. Even if a procurement process started now (and there is no sign of that) they wouldn‘t be replaced until past their 30th birthday.

Meanwhile the refurb should improve the passenger environment somewhat.

 

[Discuss223]

I imagine there will be a long term plan to replace them, subject to usual value for money and affordability criteria. Even if a procurement process started now (and there is no sign of that) they wouldn‘t be replaced until past their 30th birthday.

Meanwhile the refurb should improve the passenger environment somewhat.

When Southern introduced their new diesel stock around the same time, the stock was given a predicted lifespan of atleast 40 years. I doubt there are any replacement plans in place. Unlike the Class 180s and similar stock, the 221s haven't suffered severe corrosion. They are reliable stock. The DfT were reluctant to sanction the refurbishment even, I think it's correct to say that replacement stock is out of the question.

 

[DaveyJones]

With the influx of all these open access bids, they went from a much criticised fleet to the hottest asset in the industry

 

[Russel]

They had fanfare! Photo taken by a friend

But... but... I thought everyone hates Voyagers!

 

[dk1]

But... but... I thought everyone hates Voyagers!

That's just a myth.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

But... but... I thought everyone hates Voyagers!

I certainly don’t and in fact I think I prefer them to the sterile 805s.

 

[dk1]

I certainly don’t and in fact I think I prefer them to the sterile 805s.

See I have no issues with Voyagers but have been quite Impressed with my recent 805 journeys to/from Chester.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes, but 9 x 26m cars would still fit St Pancras at 234m. It was the decision to use short 5 car trains, doubled up in the peaks, that meant a 5+5, (made up of 26m vehicles), would be too long.

Although adding 3 years to the 810 development, and the massive cost of reengineering the 26m version to 24m vehicles, would probably have paid for four platform extensions of 20-25m each at St Pancras many times over.

 

[dk1]

Although adding 3 years to the development, and cost of reengineering the 26m version, would probably have paid for four platform extensions of 20-25m each at St Pancras many times over.

Can they be extended?

 

[Will Mitchell]

I certainly don’t and in fact I think I prefer them to the sterile 805s.

I agree. I think it’s the lighting that is key. The Voyagers have lighting with a much warmer colour temperature. Whereas on the 80x the colour temperature is too cold.

 

[Snow1964]

Can they be extended?

Might have needed the points moved few meters to the north, and the odd electrification mast moved, but doesn't appear to be any structures in the way of shortlist 20-25m platform extensions when you look at it on aerial photo

St pancras station

www.google.co.uk

or platform end photo

Street View · Google Maps

Explore a place in a more immersive way in Google Maps.

www.google.co.uk

 

[dk1]

Might have needed the points moved few meters to the north, and the odd electrification mast, but doesn't appear to be any structures in the way of shortlist 20-25m platform extensions when you look at it on aerial photo

St pancras station

www.google.co.uk

So £millions then?

 

[Russel]

That's just a myth.

Ah, my mistake, I thought "Thou must dislike Voyagers" was the first line in the rail enthusiast bible.

I certainly don’t and in fact I think I prefer them to the sterile 805s.

I've only ever used a GWR 800 and agree, they do seem sterile, but we could be saying the same about the Voyagers after the XC refurb that's coming up, hopefully not though. Although now very scruffy, I'll be sad to see the VT interior go.

 

[357]

So £millions then?

It would be interesting to know how much more expensive it was to change the design for EMR and needing new certification etc.

Arguably platform extension would be the better investment, depending how much could have been saved by using off the shelf trains.

 

[physics34]

But... but... I thought everyone hates Voyagers!

I dont hate them but I think they have issues. I've said on this forum before I think there should be a limit to the amount of time you should have to cope with the sound and vibration of an underfloor engine. ...... basically Intercity services should be LHCS.