Avanti in crisis talks to consider OLR

[Carlisle]

In simple terms a rebrand would probably be required like northern,

All they did was replace the n with an N

 

[Huntergreed]

All they did was replace the n with an N

A significant increase in capital

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

If this happened, it would have important implications for HS2. Bidders for the West Coast franchise were required to include a partner with experience in running high speed services. Hence First partnered with Trenitalia. Avanti is not just running the West Coast route as it is, but planning for the development of future high speed services and the rolling stock. Finding OLR personnel able to take over these responsibilities wouldn't be easy.

Thats a decade away hardly needs Avanti involvement at the moment

Pretty sure the management fee for OLR will be at least as much

There is no management fee with OLRs as well as no profit or performance fees.

 

[pemma]

Did Northern under OLR change for the better, or were the improvements coming anyway?

What improvements? I don't call removing services from timetables and then increasing capacity on the remaining services an improvement!

 

[jfollows]

You have to wonder what happened at the top of Avanti. Phil Whittingham has been MD of the West Coast franchise since 2015 - I know the owning group changed, but the culture change in Avanti really is profound for the same people.

I have been having exactly the same thoughts - it was always said "but it's run by the same people" and yet it appeared totally different (in a bad way) right from the start - I remember their inability to allow passengers to reserve seats, and telling weekend passengers after disruption that they couldn't travel until late Monday, just two examples I remember. And as for "automatic" delay repay, that's a rigmarole of unnecessary nonsense designed to reduce the number of valid claims they need to pay out.

So the changes presumably came from "on high" with the new franchise, who probably imposed new ways of operating which have turned out not to be better for either employees or passengers. So who did they benefit and how?

 

[Bletchleyite]

All they did was replace the n with an N

It wasn't a rebrand, it was just replacing a custom font with a standard one to save licence fees, if I recall.

 

[pemma]

Northern were already much improved from their lows before coming under OLR. They currently have quite a few factors also aiding them in the short term such as still running a reduced covid timetable

Northern are currently unable to run a reduced Monday service without cancelling numerous services every week.

10 cancellations at Liverpool Lime Street this Monday and that's after they've removed 90% of the Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington semi-fasts

Realtime Trains | Departures from Liverpool Lime Street between 0200 and 0159 on 15/08/2022

Train information at Liverpool Lime Street between 0200 and 0159 on 15/08/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[John Luxton]

We’re unlikely to notice a difference. They’ll slap some paint the same colour as the bodyside underneath over “Avanti” and we’ll be left with “West Coast”

Would it not be an idea if Avanti folds and it goes to OLR to rebrand as LMS? It would be an accurate description of the route and as we already have GWR and LNER we could gradually drift back to the Big Four.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Would it not be an idea if Avanti folds and it goes to OLR to rebrand as LMS? It would be an accurate description of the route and as we already have GWR and LNER we could gradually drift back to the Big Four.

 

[nlogax]

Would it not be an idea if Avanti folds and it goes to OLR to rebrand as LMS? It would be an accurate description of the route and as we already have GWR and LNER we could gradually drift back to the Big Four.

To be honest we'd just like a functioning west coast intercity rail service again. That's all.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Would it not be an idea if Avanti folds and it goes to OLR to rebrand as LMS? It would be an accurate description of the route and as we already have GWR and LNER we could gradually drift back to the Big Four.

Why don’t we bring steam back while we’re at it
So very dated. That said, I don’t care what they call it as long as it works.

It wasn't a rebrand, it was just replacing a custom font with a standard one to save licence fees, if I recall.

The custom font was a sort of varied version of Arriva’s standard commercial typeface, so naturally a bit difficult.

 

[JamieL]

Would it not be an idea if Avanti folds and it goes to OLR to rebrand as LMS? It would be an accurate description of the route and as we already have GWR and LNER we could gradually drift back to the Big Four.

A new livery of Caledonian blue and silver stripes for the 390s!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m reading that yesterday, Avanti locked customers inside Oxenholme station, as the staff all went home before the (delayed) last train arrived.

Edit: Please refer to this thread for existing discussion. I wasn’t aware of it when making the post.

Oxenholme station last night (16/08/22)- passengers "locked in"

Just seen this on Twitter: https://twitter.com/di_gilmore/status/1559675571050872832 Not cool @AvantiWestCoast London train arrived at Oxenholme station over 100 minutes late. The only way out of the station was to climb the locked gates! You couldn’t make it up #utterdisgrace...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Trainbike46]

Would it not be an idea if Avanti folds and it goes to OLR to rebrand as LMS? It would be an accurate description of the route and as we already have GWR and LNER we could gradually drift back to the Big Four.

If LMS comes back, then we have all 4 back, right?

LNER
GWR
LMS
Southern

 

[WizCastro197]

I’m reading that yesterday, Avanti locked customers inside Oxenholme station, as the staff all went home before the (delayed) last train arrived.

https://mobile.twitter.com/helenpidd/status/1559951453610991618

Hi Yes
a Thread on this subject already exists!

 

[hexagon789]

If LMS comes back, then we have all 4 back, right?

LNER
GWR
LMS
Southern

Correct, though not quite convering the same geographical areas.

 

[WizCastro197]

It honestly sounds too stupid. LMS with the others . can we move forward not back? Isn't that what Avanti actually means? To Go forward?

To be fair the other ones sound good as they have been modernised into a way that actually works. I can't see LMS following the same path

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Hi Yes
a Thread on this subject already exists!

Great, I’ll have a read. Thanks.

If LMS comes back, then we have all 4 back, right?

LNER
GWR
LMS
Southern

Respectfully, who cares if fans of nostalgia get their dated brands back if said brands can’t even run the train service?

A lot of the cancellations are of course alleged to be due to the reliance on goodwill from drivers working their days off (or something like that). Is going to an OLR going to change that? Will they change the way it is run? Because it’s that that seems to be not working.

It honestly sounds too stupid. LMS with the others . can we move forward not back?

To be fair the other ones sound good as they have been modernised into a way that actually works. I can't see LMS following the same path

Quite so. Pie in the sky until we know for certain what’s happening with the current TOC though.

 

[hexagon789]

It honestly sounds too stupid. LMS with the others . can we move forward not back?

To be fair the other ones sound good as they have been modernised into a way that actually works. I can't see LMS following the same path

Why is it stupid?

If it was adopted, it's a lot more descriptive than "Avanti".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is it stupid?

If it was adopted, it's a lot more descriptive than "Avanti".

In any case "Avanti West Coast" is two thirds geographic-ish!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I don’t know if anyone’s already reported on this, but journey check on the Avanti website reports that a train is cancelled and adds: “This is due to industrial action.”

There’s no strike today is there? Now, god knows I’m not a supporter of the unions, but it seems very wrong to publish that there’s industrial action when there isn’t, just to cover up their own staff shortages?

I find it fascinating how some TOCs just struggle to give their customers what they most want - plain truth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I genuinely think the RMT and/or ASLEF should take them to Court over that.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Why is it stupid?

If it was adopted, it's a lot more descriptive than "Avanti".

Because LMS was a mid 20th century operation with brown and cream Mark 1 coaches and steam locos, and Avanti West Coast runs 125mph 21st century tilting trains recently all dressed in a modern stripy livery that has no chance of being redone so soon after. It’s like slapping a Harrods logo on an IKEA. Or renaming the Ritz something like “The Kings Arms” just to remember what old inns were like before hotels got flashy.

I genuinely think the RMT and/or ASLEF should take them to Court over that.

Well, it’s as I said, I’m no fan of either but there does seem a rather pressing moral issue here. I wonder if any news outlets may see these status updates and then report on the cancellations as due to more industrial action. That would confuse the public endlessly. It’s a right mess.

 

[WizCastro197]

I genuinely think the RMT and/or ASLEF should take them to Court over that.

Yes The Label "Unofficial Strike Action". Despite the actual meaning is staff not wanting to work their rest/days off. I mean it is the summer holidays? what do they expect?Those with children and those without to work every rest day? those with Children may want to spend time with their families?

 

[cactustwirly]

I don’t know if anyone’s already reported on this, but journey check on the Avanti website reports that a train is cancelled and adds: “This is due to industrial action.”

There’s no strike today is there? Now, god knows I’m not a supporter of the unions, but it seems very wrong to publish that there’s industrial action when there isn’t, just to cover up their own staff shortages?

I find it fascinating how some TOCs just struggle to give their customers what they most want - plain truth.

Maybe because there is industrial action short of a strike. ie overtime ban etc.

I don't know if this is actually the case or not

 

[Trainbike46]

Or we could go for something less London-centric, if there's something wrong with LMS
- GSR Glasgow and Southern Railway
- BMSR Bangor, Manchester and Southern Railway
- WCR West Coast Railway

I don’t know if anyone’s already reported on this, but journey check on the Avanti website reports that a train is cancelled and adds: “This is due to industrial action.”

There’s no strike today is there? Now, god knows I’m not a supporter of the unions, but it seems very wrong to publish that there’s industrial action when there isn’t, just to cover up their own staff shortages?

I find it fascinating how some TOCs just struggle to give their customers what they most want - plain truth.

It's so stupid that they keep doing that - I'd rather they get on with fixing the mess, which requires working to improve industrial relations, not doing everything they can to make them worse

Because LMS was a mid 20th century operation with brown and cream Mark 1 coaches and steam locos, and Avanti West Coast runs 125mph 21st century tilting trains recently all dressed in a modern stripy livery that has no chance of being redone so soon after. It’s like slapping a Harrods logo on an IKEA.

I'm sure the current LNER and GWR are rather different fro their 20th century equivalents as well

Maybe because there is industrial action short of a strike. ie overtime ban etc.

I don't know if this is actually the case or not

As I understand it, there isn't an overtime ban, but many staff are just choosing not to do any/much, for various reasons

 

[duncanp]

I don’t know if anyone’s already reported on this, but journey check on the Avanti website reports that a train is cancelled and adds: “This is due to industrial action.”

There’s no strike today is there? Now, god knows I’m not a supporter of the unions, but it seems very wrong to publish that there’s industrial action when there isn’t, just to cover up their own staff shortages?

I find it fascinating how some TOCs just struggle to give their customers what they most want - plain truth.

The message on the Avanti website refers to the 13:23 from Euston to Blackpool North for tomorrow, 18th August, when there is industrial action.

Whatever you like to call it, there is clearly a breakdown in relations between management and unions, which is a de facto industrial dispute, if not a strike.

I think the fact the Avanti are in "crisis talks" shows that the situation is coming to a head, and it wouldn't surprise me if we hear an announcement within the next few days.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe because there is industrial action short of a strike. ie overtime ban etc.

I don't know if this is actually the case or not

Again, while I’ll never support the current pay strikes, there is nothing industrial action-esque about simply refusing to work on ones day off. Avanti are in a bad enough situation but what they’ve done in their wording there is really going to add fuel to the fire if noticed. The issue is that the WCML has planned around the goodwill of drivers willing to work overtime. That is not a sustainable work model, and even if an OLR takes over, they will not succeed if they retain it (I doubt they will)

 

[WizCastro197]

As I understand it, there isn't an overtime ban, but many staff are just choosing not to do any/much, for various reasons

BBC Lists Only Northern, Greater Anglia, TransPennine Express and Southeastern will take part in industrial action short of a strike as well at WMT

 

[omnicity4659]

It wasn't a rebrand, it was just replacing a custom font with a standard one to save licence fees, if I recall.

DfT had the rights to the old Northern logo transferred to them - all that they didn't have rights for was "arriva", which ARN removed before handover.

Nothing to do with fonts, however I'd imagine they have to pay to license the VAG Rounded font that they currently use...