Avanti Sunday Cancellations

[bramling]

Exactly this - I'd bet that those companies that treat their employees well have low sickness records.

In the London area, at least, it also seems point towards having to scrape the barrel for people, or in some cases dubious recruitment. Certainly from what I’m seeing, even getting people who can read and write in basic terms is becoming a problem.

Do staff who test positive for COVID have to register their test results via the NHS website as per before, then provide their employer with the email/text proof of testing positive?

I don’t think it’s people testing positive that’s the problem, there isn’t much that can be done about that, and currently most employers seem to be of the view that they’d rather Covid-positive people don’t come to work.

What’s more of the issue is the ones who will ring up and say “I’ve got Covid symptoms, what do you want me to do?” (or the variation of the theme which is to claim a positive LFT). Until recently at least, this would be met with “stay home and book yourself a test”. Then the test comes back negative, and they return to work after having had 2 or 3 days off - rather convenient if this happened to be something like Christmas.

 

[Runningaround]

Surely if we are close to automated trucks then how close are we to automated trains? The technology is there and automating a train running on track is surely easier than a vehicle on a roads with multiple routes, with far more unpredictable events.
The more the human element disrupts services and costs money the sooner they will be replaced by robots who can work non-stop without fuss.

 

[Moonshot]

Surely if we are close to automated trucks then how close are we to automated trains? The technology is there and automating a train running on track is surely easier than a vehicle on a roads with multiple routes, with far more unpredictable events.
The more the human element disrupts services and costs money the sooner they will be replaced by robots who can work non-stop without fuss.

Exactly when do you envisage a Pendolino racing up and down the west coast mainline with no driver?

 

[Runningaround]

They are fit for duty! Or do they all go sick when they have a common cold??

If they felt a little bit hungover would going to work be OK? I mean a cold doesn't feel much worse.

 

[bramling]

Surely if we are close to automated trucks then how close are we to automated trains? The technology is there and automating a train running on track is surely easier than a vehicle on a roads with multiple routes, with far more unpredictable events.
The more the human element disrupts services and costs money the sooner they will be replaced by robots who can work non-stop without fuss.

I'm not sure raising the subject of automation is helpful. The technology *isn't* there, it's only just about there for specific metro applications, and even that with significant caveats. For something like Avanti West Coast automation is sufficiently far away as to be irrelevant for the foreseeable future.

 

[43066]

Surely if we are close to automated trucks then how close are we to automated trains? The technology is there and automating a train running on track is surely easier than a vehicle on a roads with multiple routes, with far more unpredictable events.
The more the human element disrupts services and costs money the sooner they will be replaced by robots who can work non-stop without fuss.

Not that close judging by the fact I was driving to Victorian semaphore signalling yesterday…

Your job will probably be automated before mine .

 

[Runningaround]

Exactly when do you envisage a Pendolino racing up and down the west coast mainline with no driver?

It's on a track and computers can judge the distance between each train and can calculate the speed required as happens now cameras can spot danger in quicker time than a human eye. Trains are already operating without drivers it just needs upgrading to highspeed. If it's that close with trucks on motorways, A Roads, and B Roads delivering to farms up a lane it can be done on a railway where the vehicle doesn't need turning corners or adjusting the route
You can fly a missile around the world and hit a target, you can fly a drone from an office thousands of miles away.
If the human element keeps disrupting the operation then the technology to replace them will be created as it has elsewhere.
A plane could take-off, fly and land without a human at the front it would just be like a drone with passengers.

Not that close judging by the fact I was driving to Victorian semaphore signalling yesterday…

Your job will probably be automated before mine .

Automated drivers won't need a semaphore, just like signals for ERTMS they can be done away with and save on the cost of maintenance. One control box covering the whole line, crossing keepers replaced by automation, manual labour replaced by machines.
It's only a matter of time the more disruption the human causes the more eager the industry will cut the cost and eliminate the problem

 

[Moonshot]

It's on a track and computers can judge the distance between each train and can calculate the speed required as happens now cameras can spot danger in quicker time than a human eye. Trains are already operating without drivers it just needs upgrading to highspeed. If it's that close with trucks on motorways, A Roads, and B Roads delivering to farms up a lane it can be done on a railway where the vehicle doesn't need turning corners or adjusting the route
You can fly a missile around the world and hit a target, you can fly a drone from an office thousands of miles away.
If the human element keeps disrupting the operation then the technology to replace them will be created as it has elsewhere.
A plane could take-off, fly and land without a human at the front it would just be like a drone with passenge

So when do you envisage a Pendolino without a driver?

 

[The Planner]

It's on a track and computers can judge the distance between each train and can calculate the speed required as happens now cameras can spot danger in quicker time than a human eye. Trains are already operating without drivers it just needs upgrading to highspeed. If it's that close with trucks on motorways, A Roads, and B Roads delivering to farms up a lane it can be done on a railway where the vehicle doesn't need turning corners or adjusting the route
You can fly a missile around the world and hit a target, you can fly a drone from an office thousands of miles away.
If the human element keeps disrupting the operation then the technology to replace them will be created as it has elsewhere.
A plane could take-off, fly and land without a human at the front it would just be like a drone with passengers.


Automated drivers won't need a semaphore, just like signals for ERTMS they can be done away with and save on the cost of maintenance. One control box covering the whole line, crossing keepers replaced by automation, manual labour replaced by machines.
It's only a matter of time the more disruption the human causes the more eager the industry will cut the cost and eliminate the problem

We are decades away from having the ETCS coverage to even contemplate that and no one has done Level 3 at a such a scale either.

 

[bramling]

Automated drivers won't need a semaphore, just like signals for ERTMS they can be done away with and save on the cost of maintenance. One control box covering the whole line, crossing keepers replaced by automation, manual labour replaced by machines.
It's only a matter of time the more disruption the human causes the more eager the industry will cut the cost and eliminate the problem

The problem is that in order to "cut the cost and eliminate the problem", you have to spend a massive amount of money, and in so doing you create a whole load of new problems. Worth also remembering that you also put the power in the hands of a select group of systems and software engineers. Remember that a month or so ago, a London Underground line was brought to a complete shutdown by *one* person making themselves unavailable for work - and it wasn't a driver!

 

[Runningaround]

The problem is that in order to "cut the cost and eliminate the problem", you have to spend a massive amount of money, and in so doing you create a whole load of new problems. Worth also remembering that you also put the power in the hands of a select group of systems and software engineers. Remember that a month or so ago, a London Underground line was brought to a complete shutdown by *one* person making themselves unavailable for work - and it wasn't a driver!

Once it's in place it's paid for you need to maintain it like building new lines or motorways. Cost shouldn't just be how much is it going to cost the railway, just like HS2 it's how it benefits the economy as whole. How many business outside the railways get affected by cancellations from railway staff absence thus affecting the economy. And look at the savings made you cancel the need for ''PNB's, they will work every Sunday ? How many DLR services are cancelled due to staff shortage compared to services that need a driver on each train?
SNCF are looking at trialling ''driverless trains'' in 2023. The higher the speed the more roles the computer and technology will take off the human inevitably to it being rather redundant.
Light rail and commuter services can be run closer together if run by technology they can react faster and run all day with a commands under the control of one person to a number of trains.

We are decades away from having the ETCS coverage to even contemplate that and no one has done Level 3 at a such a scale either.

But then as you increase it you reduce the maintenance cost of traditional signalling, you are also able to run at higher speeds due to reducing the human element, you can also run closer together, but then more services will need more humans, more cancellations. Unless you ditch the driver.

Exactly when do you envisage a Pendolino racing up and down the west coast mainline with no driver?

As SNCF are trialling it for 2023. But then France has a progressive Railway.

 

[the sniper]

You'll have battery powered Double Fairlies in Porthmadog before you see an unmanned Class 197 turn up on the other side of town.

As SNCF are trialling it for 2023. But then France has a progressive Railway.

And of course, no issues at all with unions...

 

[irish_rail]

Once it's in place it's paid for you need to maintain it like building new lines or motorways. Cost shouldn't just be how much is it going to cost the railway, just like HS2 it's how it benefits the economy as whole. How many business outside the railways get affected by cancellations from railway staff absence thus affecting the economy. And look at the savings made you cancel the need for ''PNB's, they will work every Sunday ? How many DLR services are cancelled due to staff shortage compared to services that need a driver on each train?
SNCF are looking at trialling ''driverless trains'' in 2023. The higher the speed the more roles the computer and technology will take off the human inevitably to it being rather redundant.
Light rail and commuter services can be run closer together if run by technology they can react faster and run all day with a commands under the control of one person to a number of trains.


But then as you increase it you reduce the maintenance cost of traditional signalling, you are also able to run at higher speeds due to reducing the human element, you can also run closer together, but then more services will need more humans, more cancellations. Unless you ditch the driver.


As SNCF are trialling it for 2023. But then France has a progressive Railway.

Sigh....here we go again. Driverless trains CANNOT ever happen on our current victorian infrastructure. Its as simple as that. How does the computer differentiate between a deer crossing the track or a person? Or Pway staff? The computer would be forever applying the brake, and would require a man or women up the front to constantly restart the train. It just won't happen, except potentially on the Tube network where it is enclosed or , potentially on new buily lines IF they are fully encloses and completely wildlife etc proof. Even then there would still need to be a person at the front to reset the brakes when they apply due to a bird on the track or whatever.
I guess a flying monorail type system may also be feasible for driverless, but to say I'm not worried about my job going driverless is an understatement!

 

[bramling]

Once it's in place it's paid for you need to maintain it like building new lines or motorways. Cost shouldn't just be how much is it going to cost the railway, just like HS2 it's how it benefits the economy as whole. How many business outside the railways get affected by cancellations from railway staff absence thus affecting the economy. And look at the savings made you cancel the need for ''PNB's, they will work every Sunday ? How many DLR services are cancelled due to staff shortage compared to services that need a driver on each train?
SNCF are looking at trialling ''driverless trains'' in 2023. The higher the speed the more roles the computer and technology will take off the human inevitably to it being rather redundant.
Light rail and commuter services can be run closer together if run by technology they can react faster and run all day with a commands under the control of one person to a number of trains.

I think you are massively underestimating the complexity and cost of installing and maintaining automated systems. As well as the initial conversion cost, there will always be a significant amount of snagging, and then there’s the cost any time you want or need to make a modification, for all of which you’re essentially in the complete hands of software developers.

Look at TFL, who have a massive headache coming up when it comes to the Piccadilly Line - having boxed themselves into a corner with their ATC procurement for the current batch of lines, the favourite supplier knows they can essentially name their price, hence why Piccadilly Line resignalling is now looking increasing unaffordable for the foreseeable future. They’ve already had to descoped elements of the Sun Surface lines as a cost-saving measure where the benefits simply don’t justify the cost.

As for DLR, they run on grandfather rights, having been built as a small 1980s system, and massively expanded since. To build such a system from scratch, a platform edge door or obstacle detection system would almost certainly be necessary. Meanwhile, they certainly do get cancellations arising from crew unavailability, and they still have one of the biggest downsides of a manned system - the need for duty schedules.

The two issues with automation are (1) do the benefits outweigh the costs? and (2) is the technology ready yet? Outside of metro applications, the answer to both these questions is still quite clearly no, and the pace of progress doesn’t seem to suggest we’re likely to be anywhere near this changing in the near future.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Sorry Runningaround, seems like your driverless train wet dream might have to be put on hold for a while yet.
Still, in the meantime we could look at ways of abolishing/outsourcing other jobs, possibly even yours?

 

[Mag_seven]

We are not going down the driverless trains rabbit hole on this one.

That's all folks.