Avanti West Coast cancellations

[dk1]

What I meant was:
Assume A and B are job share drivers. 'They' are booked to work on Monday and B is the individual working that shift.
The TOC has overtime available on Monday, and A would like to work as he wants the money.
Is A allowed to work the overtime shift on Monday given B is already working on Monday (so the overtime could not be worked if A and B were a single person).

If not, this seems rather silly - A is missing out on overtime which he wants to work, and the TOC is going to have to cancel services due to lack of a driver. Who exactly is benefiting here?

No, driver A is definitely NOT allowed to work. That is the strict agreement of job sharing. They must act as one individual. The whole point of them job sharing is to do less hours.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Schapps arguing that there is more than one direct train an hour running between Manchester and London ATM.

He really is clueless.

 

[43066]

No I don't and that isn't the point I'm making. The point I'm making is people should be recruited onto the railway who want to work on the railway, not who want to work for and love Virgin. Virgin were always temporary so having people who have a loyalty to Virgin was always storing up trouble because at some point they wouldn't be working for them but they would still be working on the railway.

Another post that reveals your fundamental (wilful?) lack of understanding of the railway. Nobody on the railway front line could care less what the name of their employer is or has “loyalty” to any particular brand name. TOCs come and go but the job remains largely the same…
Not sure why it’s so hard for you to understand that overtime is relied on because it’s cheaper than employing a full complement. If you treat people badly and annoy them, they won’t help out or be as willing to work overtime. It really is as simple as that. The choice is either employ enough to not need overtime, or avoid annoying your workforce.

Surely that’s pretty standard for most employees in most industries, including for yourself as a bus driver?!

It would be quite reasonable, and not that unusual in other jobs, to expect staff who will be part-time to make themselves available for longer hours for training. In any event it is a route that should be explored to see how many applicants come forward. There is little to lose from testing it out.

The training in this case taking a year or more…

It’s a ludicrous suggestion for the reasons explained upthread! £100k * 2 to train people who each only work two days a week, versus £100k to train one fully productive driver.

It’s already offered for existing experienced drivers who effectively share the job of one person (and don’t have to be trained up), but no TOC is going to pay to train up someone who works 50% of the time. The reasons why are obvious.

No, driver A is definitely NOT allowed to work. That is the strict agreement of job sharing. They must act as one individual. The whole point of them job sharing is to do less hours.

Is there a bar on job sharers working rest days if they want to? Admittedly it would be highly unlikely for them to want to given the profile of people who job share (usually winding down to retirement or wanting fewer hours due to family commitments).

 

[Grumpy Git]

He’s arguing that it’s only today because it’s between two strike days.

 

[DelayRepay]

No, driver A is definitely NOT allowed to work. That is the strict agreement of job sharing. They must act as one individual. The whole point of them job sharing is to do less hours.

But who is this agreement protecting?
Driver A is happy to work the extra hours to earn extra money
Driver B is not affected as he is working his scheduled hours and earning his usual money
The TOC gets a shift covered, so doesn't have to cancel trains
The passengers are happy because their trains aren't cancelled

The only person who could be affected is another driver who wanted overtime but couldn't get any due to Driver A working it. But how often does that happen?

Another question (I am genuinely interested) - Do Drivers A and B have a joint ASLEF membership, so pay one sub between them and have one joint vote when there's a ballot?

I am interested because my workplace has job sharers, but they are essentially treated as two part time employees.

 

[43066]

Another question (I am genuinely interested) - Do Drivers A and B have a joint ASLEF membership, so pay one sub between them and have one joint vote when there's a ballot?

ASLEF subs are determined by salary, so two subscriptions with each at a rate based on 50% of a normal drivers basic salary…

 

[craigybagel]

But who is this agreement protecting?
Driver A is happy to work the extra hours to earn extra money
Driver B is not affected as he is working his scheduled hours and earning his usual money
The TOC gets a shift covered, so doesn't have to cancel trains
The passengers are happy because their trains aren't cancelled

The only person who could be affected is another driver who wanted overtime but couldn't get any due to Driver A working it. But how often does that happen?

That's exactly who it's protecting. Otherwise the drivers on a job share would gain an unfair advantage over their colleagues when it comes to picking up overtime and some drivers like to do a lot of it.

You'd be surprised (especially in the current context at Avanti) how often there are more volunteers for Rest Day Work than jobs available. There are a whole set of rules that ensure when this occurs the jobs are given out fairly, and the rules around job sharers are part of that.

 

[GordonT]

Did anyone else see Grant Shapps on the BBC1 Breakfast programme arguing with the presenter regarding the number of trains currently on offer between Manchester and London? The presenter was saying 1 per hour and Shapps was adamant that it was 4 per hour.

 

[Huntergreed]

Did anyone else see Grant Shapps on the BBC1 Breakfast programme arguing with the presenter regarding the number of trains currently on offer between Manchester and London? The presenter was saying 1 per hour and Shapps was adamant that it was 4 per hour.

Almost certainly got the total number of Avanti trains per hour and the number to Manchester per hour mixed up - certainly won’t make him look good (or competent!) in any way!

 

[jfollows]

Almost certainly got the total number of Avanti trains per hour and the number to Manchester per hour mixed up - certainly won’t make him look good (or competent!) in any way!

He's desperately trying to keep his job by raising his profile and the fact that he talks complete rubbish sometimes doesn't really matter, in fact anything that gets his name against a headline is good for him at the moment.

 

[Huntergreed]

He's desperately trying to keep his job by raising his profile and the fact that he talks complete rubbish sometimes doesn't really matter, in fact anything that gets his name against a headline is good for him at the moment.

To think he was going to run for PM initially is a scary thought indeed!

 

[dk1]

Is there a bar on job sharers working rest days if they want to? Admittedly it would be highly unlikely for them to want to given the profile of people who job share (usually winding down to retirement or wanting fewer hours due to family commitments).

Job sharers tend to just do their booked Sundays & that's it. If they do work any extra (which is very rare) the roster clerk would have to know well in advance which driver was available.

But who is this agreement protecting?
Driver A is happy to work the extra hours to earn extra money
Driver B is not affected as he is working his scheduled hours and earning his usual money
The TOC gets a shift covered, so doesn't have to cancel trains
The passengers are happy because their trains aren't cancelled

The only person who could be affected is another driver who wanted overtime but couldn't get any due to Driver A working it. But how often does that happen?

Another question (I am genuinely interested) - Do Drivers A and B have a joint ASLEF membership, so pay one sub between them and have one joint vote when there's a ballot?

I am interested because my workplace has job sharers, but they are essentially treated as two part time employees.

Sorry I dont know about the ASLEF payment/vote. Everything has to be done to protect the interests of all other drivers so nobody taking the job share option has any form of advantage in anyway. It is all down to being fair to others which is why traincrew rostering is so strict & monitored at all times.

Those on family friendly hours/shifts are not permitted in normal circumstances to deviate or do anything other than their rostered day/turns. Doing otherwise would be against why the union agreed to it in the first place & would be counter productive to why the driver had it agreed from the outset.

 

[GordonT]

To think he was going to run for PM initially is a scary thought indeed!

Indeed although Liz Truss the PM in waiting is at least as alarming.

 

[43066]

Job sharers tend to just do their booked Sundays & that's it. If they do work any extra (which is very rare) the roster clerk would have to know well in advance which driver was available.

I seem to remember one of ours went through a spell of working rest days. It’s unusual, as you say.

Those on family friendly hours/shifts are not permitted in normal circumstances to deviate or do anything other than their rostered day/turns. Doing otherwise would be against why the union agreed to it in the first place & would be counter productive to why the driver had it agreed from the outset.

Indeed. People who are accomodated by definition will not be able to come in outside those hours to do overtime. If they are able to do that they should no longer be accommodated!

 

[bramling]

Did anyone else see Grant Shapps on the BBC1 Breakfast programme arguing with the presenter regarding the number of trains currently on offer between Manchester and London? The presenter was saying 1 per hour and Shapps was adamant that it was 4 per hour.

What an utter drip!

I love the way he then tries to label the presenter as being “confused”.

Shapps is a complete joke.

 

[dk1]

I seem to remember one of ours went through a spell of working rest days. It’s unusual, as you say.

Where I have known it happen on a Sunday it's been because all other avenues have been exhausted and it's been agreed with local union reps. I think the last time was when England got through a couple of years back.

Did anyone else see Grant Shapps on the BBC1 Breakfast programme arguing with the presenter regarding the number of trains currently on offer between Manchester and London? The presenter was saying 1 per hour and Shapps was adamant that it was 4 per hour.

It was shocking beyond all belief that the transport minister is so out of touch with what's going on. He was babbling on clueless. Well done to Charlie at the BBC continuing to go at him & not let him get away with it. He after all uses the route as do his colleagues as the studios are in Salford.

 

[Howardh]

Where I have known it happen on a Sunday it's been because all other avenues have been exhausted and it's been agreed with local union reps. I think the last time was when England got through a couple of years back.


It was shocking beyond all belief that the transport minister is so out of touch with what's going on. He was babbling on clueless. Well done to Charlie at the BBC continuing to go at him & not let him get away with it. He after all uses the route as do his colleagues as the studios are in Salford.

I've linked to the video in one of the other Avanti threads. The man needs to ge back on TV and put himself right, he is absolutely clueless over such a simple fact. Also even in the good old days, I though the best service we has (Manchester/london) was 3tph, maybe 4 at peak hours?

Love to see Andy Burnham's face watching that.

 

[bramling]

I've linked to the video in one of the other Avanti threads. The man needs to ge back on TV and put himself right, he is absolutely clueless over such a simple fact. Also even in the good old days, I though the best service we has (Manchester/london) was 3tph, maybe 4 at peak hours?

Love to see Andy Burnham's face watching that.

Indeed pretty shocking really especially bearing in mind the publicity this matter has had recently.

What’s equally disgusting is the way Shapps brazenly attempts to bull his way out of it.

No wonder there’s problems if the transport Secretary is so clueless.

 

[dk1]

Love to see Andy Burnham's face watching that.

Oh so would I

 

[Howardh]

Indeed pretty shocking really especially bearing in mind the publicity this matter has had recently.

What’s equally disgusting is the way Shapps brazenly attempts to bull his way out of it.

No wonder there’s problems if the transport Secretary is so clueless.

Just remember - Tory MP's are not allowed to be wrong and apologise. Cover up, lie, pass the blame, but NEVER admit.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Just remember - Tory MP's are not allowed to be wrong and apologise. Cover up, lie, pass the blame, but NEVER admit.

Thought this applied to all MPs?

 

[32475]

What an utter drip!

I love the way he then tries to label the presenter as being “confused”.

Shapps is a complete joke.

It all sounds like something from ‘Yes Minister’ with the exception that none of this is a laughing matter.

 

[JamieL]

Thought this applied to all MPs?

I don't think it does - there hasn't been this level of normalised and overt dishonesty in British politics for decades.

 

[bramling]

Just remember - Tory MP's are not allowed to be wrong and apologise. Cover up, lie, pass the blame, but NEVER admit.

It certainly seems to be endemic in this particular government, with a shining example being set from the very top.

Seriously, one could understand Shapps getting something wrong on an obscure route, but given all the publicity this particular one has had recently, *surely* he should have known? I don’t believe it was merely a senior moment, as he then got bogged down in the bizarre spat about “direct trains”.

Given that none of this will be helping with Britain’s rather fragile economic position at the moment, a senior member of the government being found to be so badly out of touch in this way is pretty bed. Evidently another one who doesn’t do detail!

It all sounds like something from ‘Yes Minister’ with the exception that none of this is a laughing matter.

It certainly isn’t a laughing matter. Incompetent, and a blatant attempt to bull his way out of it. The London to Manchester route in particular is rather important to the economy, and everyone deserves better than that shower of a performance. It’s noticeable he then did his usual thing of starting on the unions / rail staff, one wonders how much of that was made up too.

 

[jaigee]

£17m paid to Avanti West Coast is ‘reward for failure’, says Labour

Under-fire firm given performance and management fees despite being worst-performing rail operator

www.theguardian.com

 

[jfollows]

The text from the article referred to in the previous post:

£17m paid to Avanti West Coast is ‘reward for failure’, says Labour

Under-fire firm given performance and management fees despite being worst-performing rail operator

Helen Pidd North of England editor
Fri 19 Aug 2022 10.00 BST

The under-fire rail operator Avanti West Coast has been “rewarded for failure”, Labour said, after the company was paid more than £17m in taxpayers’ money by ministers for performance and management fees in just two years, despite being the worst-performing operator on the rail network.

The figures from 2019-20 and 2020-21 include almost £4m in bonuses to Avanti for “operational performance”, “customer experience” and “acting as a good and efficient operator”.

At the same time, the firm raised prices, with an open return from Manchester to London – barely a two-hour journey – costing £369.40.

The performance-related fees, signed off by transport ministers, came despite Avanti being the worst-performing operator in the country, with almost half of its services arriving late. In the past two years alone the firm received more than 50,000 complaints, the most of any operator and almost double that of the parallel east coast mainline operator, LNER.

Avanti, co-owned by the Italian national railways, has come under renewed criticism for slashing services between major cities by up to two-thirds on the west coast mainline, and earlier this week passengers were forced to climb a fence at Oxenholme station in Cumbria after being locked in as their train arrived 100 minutes late.

Avanti West Coast, whose contract is due for renewal in October, already has the lowest passenger satisfaction rating possible, a figure the transport minister Charlotte Vere said last month was “terrible”.

Despite this, the Department for Transport (DfT) confirmed it would continue to hand over millions of pounds in management fees, after ruling out fining the operator for the failing service.

The shadow transport secretary, Louise Haigh, has warned her counterpart, Grant Shapps, that the government “cannot continue to wash their hands of responsibility, nor reward failure” as the damage to the economy from the ongoing failure of the private operator mounts.

She has renewed calls for ministers to urgently demand a plan from Avanti for the full restoration of services, recover taxpayers’ money for services that are not running and, if an urgent plan to restore services is not put in place, strip the company of the contract.

“This fiasco is causing real damage to the regional economy, passengers and the public,” said Hague.

“This government has willingly sat back and rewarded failure, handing over millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money for an abysmal service. Under the absurd system they have created, passengers always come last. It’s time for ministers to wake up, do their job and hold this failing operator to account.

“They should demand a plan from the operator to urgently restore these services, claw back taxpayers’ money being handed over for services that aren’t running, and if they do not act, they have no business holding the contract.”

A spokesperson for Avanti blamed the reduction in service on “the current industrial relations climate which has resulted in severe staff shortages”.

He apologised to customers for the “enormous frustration and inconvenience this will cause”.

The company is considering a request from Andy Burnham, the mayor of Greater Manchester, to scrap first-class restrictions while the reduced timetable is in operation, to fit more people on trains.

The Department for Transport said: “The department’s performance-related pay to train operating companies is independently evaluated through a scorecard criteria based on factors such as operational performance, efficiency and customer satisfaction.

“We are meeting Avanti West Coast regularly to discuss its performance and delivery for passengers. This includes ensuring effective plans are developed to improve its services, including mitigating issues outside of its control.”

 

[jaigee]

The text from the article referred to in the previous post:

Thanks for that, I forgot to expand it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's for performance in 2019/20 (pre-Covid, some of it maybe even pre-Avanti) and 2020/21 (Covid/emergency period etc).
Nothing to see here.

 

[GordonT]

Shapps' megagaffe also exposes potential weaknesses in the briefings given to him by his DfT officials whose share of the responsibility for the current debacles never in true Sir Humphrey style receives the prominence it deserves.

 

[modernrail]

I don't think it does - there hasn't been this level of normalised and overt dishonesty in British politics for decades.

Ever. We have never had such blatant failure to be in way across a brief and get away with it, or an ability to lie without come back. Nor have we had Ministers routinely in position for less time than a temporary Christmas worker. Nor have we ever had 3 PM’s in a row booted out by their own party nor have we ever had 3 PM’s in a row selected by a party membership that is only a little bit above the SNP’s, nor have we ever had a Government that is so rude and dishonest to the very electorate it is meant to serve.

Labour’s filing cabinet must be absolutely overflowing with damning images, quotes, NAO reports and performance and delivery figures at this point.

God knows what these guys would organise in a brewery. I wouldn’t employ them to clean my bike.