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Avanti West coast contract extended to 1st April 2023

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Bald Rick

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which has seemingly caused no issues for years.

oh it has caused loads of issues!


In fact, it’s in these “situations” that agreements of this type are at their most important

I disagree. All it shows is that that specific agreement is at best illogical. Just because it has been agreed in the past doesn’t make it right today. As summed up here:


If Avanti crews can't do more than 1 Preston-Blackpool in a shift does that also apply to Northern crews?

No, it's an Avanti specific agreement.

It is clearly absolute nonsense that Avanti drivers cannot be rostered to drive a route more than once a turn. If there is any evidence to support it‘s continued use I’d be delighted to receive it.
 
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43066

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Circumstances change. Just as traincrew are no longer satisfied with the level of pay they willingly agreed to some years ago, these limitations ought to be reviewed in the context of a shortage of traincrew.

If circumstances have changed the agreement should be renegotiated through the usual channels, not simply ignored at the whim of the TOC as you seem to favour.

It’s utterly ridiculous to compare agreements like this with discussions about pay during a cost of living crisis and the highest inflation for four decades. Talk about a dog whistle, resentment of the pay of traincrew and drivers in particular, is always the subtext to these discussions.

It’s also disingenuous in the extreme to present the “context of a shortage of train crew” as if it’s some external event the poor innocent TOCs have fallen victim to. It is perpetual and entirely of their own making because (as always) it suits the TOCs to rely on rest day work.


There is a big difference here - whilst TOCs have no qualms shirking their obligations to passengers, they generally do their best to abide by traincrew agreements. They know they will get away with taking liberties with the former, but not the latter! So this is a discussion about potential changes to an agreement vs breaches of obligations that occur on a daily basis. Chalk and cheese...

I can assure you TOCs regularly take liberties with traincrew (and no doubt other staff), including regularly asking people to breach agreements, trying to sneak changes through without giving enough notice etc. In fact we are often treated like dirt and the one thing preventing the job becoming completely unbearable is the union (and a thoroughly decent bunch of colleagues and immediate managers in my case).

I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised you are in favour of agreements being ripped up to suit TOCs. Unfortunately I notice you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about traincrew Ts and Cs and unions and that’s only underlined by the fact that, or all the many issues with Avanti, you choose to scapegoat the staff by attacking long-standing agreements that have worked for years.

You should also consider that it’s exactly that kind of confrontational attitude that has completely destroyed goodwill and led to the current disastrous situation on the WCML. That kind of aggressive, pugnacious approach is guaranteed to make things worse not better. It is to be hoped that the current transport minister realises that and initial signs are apparently promising.

I don't disagree that there's a problem with fatigue across the industry, and particularly the limits for night turns, shift rotation etc. But you can't tell me that the sorts of practices which are routine across other TOCs are so dangerous they can't possibly be allowed over at Avanti. The relative rates of incidents simply don't bear that out

There are many incidents. Thankfully very few lead to injury or worse these days due to the safety systems in place, and sometimes blind luck, but all lead to significant disruption. You can’t try to tell me fatigue isn’t a big part of loss of concentration incidents (which almost all safety of the line incidents are). We all know fatigue is as bad for performance as being drunk yet, despite the (rightly) rigorous approach to drug and alcohol impairment, fatigue is not only openly tolerated but often actually caused by railway rostering practices!

Probably down to working under considerable time pressure, I'd have thought. Any planner worth their salt will know what the relevant parameters are and work within them.

Perhaps it is. The ones at both TOCs I’ve worked for seem to struggle with working within these basic parameters. I can’t really comment as to why!

No, it's an Avanti specific agreement. Blackpool (and other) crews routinely go to Preston and back more than once; indeed, every Blackpool South service that's Blackpool crewed involves that.

Does anyone know what the exact agreement is and how it works?

I disagree. All it shows is that that specific agreement is at best illogical. Just because it has been agreed in the past doesn’t make it right today. As summed up here:

The logic might be to prevent too much monotony, which has been shown to lead to incidents.

It is clearly absolute nonsense that Avanti drivers cannot be rostered to drive a route more than once a turn. If there is any evidence to support it‘s continued use I’d be delighted to receive it.

I can’t comment on the Preston-Blackpool route, but how much do Avanti need to drive this particular route multiple times per shift in the context of their long distance route network?

If this particular agreement is so onerous and unworkable then why did the TOC agree to it in the first place and what’s to stop them now negotiating to change it (other than the fact they seem hellbent on destroying the remaining goodwill of their staff!)?

nor the frankly excessive proportion of route refresh turns.

I’d ask the same sort of question here. What makes you think it’s excessive in the context of a long distance TOC with depots such as Preston who sign London - Glasgow and a list of diversions as long as your arm?

EDIT: and I understand Avanti drivers also have 12 hour movements off spare. That is a very, very onerous term for a passenger TOC. That rather shows how focussing on one (seemingly) generous agreement in isolation rather ignores the bigger picture.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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No idea. It was evidently appropriate then. Not now.
Wasn't it pre-VHF (ie 2tph Manchester/Birmingham), when there was a lower service intensity overall?
There's aso the traction mix to consider (currently 390/221, going to 390/80x).
Virgin/Aslef also negotiated a 125mph single-manning agreement which wasn't relevant on the former 110mph WCML.

Imagine this debate when HS2 is on the WCML route card... ;)
 

Some guy

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I’d ask the same sort of question here. What makes you think it’s excessive in the context of a long distance TOC with depots such as Preston who sign London - Glasgow and a list of diversions as long as your arm?
If Preston worked a service from London to Glasgow it would go over the hours as they would need 2 1 hour breaks on top of an 10 hour driving shift. Also even if possible it would mean Glasgow and Edinburgh crews would lose turns
 

43066

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If Preston worked a service from London to Glasgow it would go over the hours as they would need 2 1 hour breaks on top of an 10 hour driving shift. Also even if possible it would mean Glasgow and Edinburgh crews would lose turns

I said they sign the entire route. I didn’t suggest they worked it all in one go.
 

Some guy

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I said they sign the entire route. I didn’t suggest they worked it all in one go.
Yeah they do. It’s probably the best depot to work for. A good solution would be Avanti allowing Wolverhampton guards and drivers to sign the Blackpool north route as that needs 7 train managers and 7 drivers to run them services meaning more train crew on a 20 minute service and back
 

43066

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Yeah they do. It’s probably the best depot to work for. A good solution would be Avanti allowing Wolverhampton guards and drivers to sign the Blackpool north route as that needs 7 train managers and 7 drivers to run them services meaning more train crew on a 20 minute service and back

It’s certainly an impressive route mileage for one depot. Only bettered by LNER at Newcastle where the lodge link (AIUI) signs everything between Aberdeen and London (and I think Avanti may still edge it based on having more diversions).
 

Some guy

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It’s certainly an impressive route mileage for one depot. Only bettered by LNER at Newcastle where the lodge link (AIUI) signs everything between Aberdeen and London (and I think Avanti may still edge it based on having more diversions).
Definitely they are both the best. It is incredible how little old Preston sign to Manchester via Stoke and Crewe , Chester, Birmingham, Glasgow, edinburgh , Euston and even Warrington to Chester a route they almost never use
 

43066

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Definitely they are both the best. It is incredible how little old Preston sign to Manchester via Stoke and Crewe , Chester, Birmingham, Glasgow, edinburgh , Euston and even Warrington to Chester a route they almost never use

Extraordinary. That might help explain their “excessive” route refresh days :).
 

david l

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Definitely they are both the best. It is incredible how little old Preston sign to Manchester via Stoke and Crewe , Chester, Birmingham, Glasgow, edinburgh , Euston and even Warrington to Chester a route they almost never use
Plenty would say its a pity that they don't sign Carlisle (via S & C)
 

LowLevel

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Route refresh days? Doesn't RR in the roster signify to expect a phone call from rosters the day before to say "any chance you'll come off it and do me 10 hours of pure delight?" :p I said yes last time and ended up working 1515 to 0100 for my pains!
 

Bald Rick

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Don’t forget Euston sign so many diversions too and do Manchester, Preston, Chester and Liverpool so they have quite a big route card but nowhere near as big as Preston though

I know, but also remember that any Euston driver driving anything at all will cover all the main routes in about two weeks, and would be very unlucky not to get most of the diversionary routes inside a couple of months. The need for route refreshing can only apply to the lesser used diversionary routes (the Soho line, Aston - Proof House, Crewe - Alsager, Piccadilly - Liverpool / Preston, and then only if the driver hasn’t done them. That won’t need 10 days a year.
 

Harold

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Hi all


If have a spare 27mins from 09:33-10:00 Very interesting to watch and proves under virgin trains the timetable they had was heavily reliant on rdw.

Filmed on Wednesday 12/10/2022

 

ComUtoR

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It is clearly absolute nonsense that Avanti drivers cannot be rostered to drive a route more than once a turn. If there is any evidence to support it‘s continued use I’d be delighted to receive it.

I did have a quick look on the RSSB website but couldn't find what I was looking for so anecdotally (with a smidge of real experience and industry knowledge) There are various ways of dealing with incidents. One strategy is to keep your diagrams sufficiently varied to prevent under-load or risks introduced through constant repetition. This is particularly relevant for Metro routes where you can run over the same route multiple times in a day. This can lead to assuming where you get signalled and predicting signal sequences. This can also apply to mainline routes, especially where routes may be epic in terms of mileage but not in variety.

Another reason for varying routes on a diagram is to help with route and traction knowledge retention. We have routes where they are limited by traction. We have diagrams that are used purely to maintain route knowledge. The whole Driver diagramming can be incredibly complex. There may be a case where trips do not fit is an diagram so need to be split. I remember an issue with a Thameslink depot where they discovered that you could drive a route in one direction but wouldn't be able to make it back to your depot in the same diagram; so it gets chopped up into chunks.

I'm not saying that this is specific for Avanti but I can understand why it may occur.


I know, but also remember that any Euston driver driving anything at all will cover all the main routes in about two weeks, and would be very unlucky not to get most of the diversionary routes inside a couple of months. The need for route refreshing can only apply to the lesser used diversionary routes (the Soho line, Aston - Proof House, Crewe - Alsager, Piccadilly - Liverpool / Preston, and then only if the driver hasn’t done them. That won’t need 10 days a year.

This opens up too many questions for me. 10 days a year is a tiny amount in real terms. I've refresh many routes in my years and some will take a day to get and in some cases, just a single trip. I'd also ask if the routes that need to be covered run regularly. We have a few routes where trains rarely run so trying to get that refreshed can be a miracle at times. When you limit route refresh days, you are also reducing the opportunity to get them. This introduces the risk where Drivers could simply remove the route from their route cards which would cause more issues.

I'd also want to know what the route learning strategy is. Does each route have a minimum number of days required to maintain competence ? Are the routes covered by a suitable route story with different learning styles incorporated to any learning plans ? Can they be learned digitally etc. ?

I'd also ask about how the refresher days are used. Are they booked on the roster and used as spare/as required turns or are they specifically restricted to route refreshing as @LowLevel level stated, you often get pulled off your refresher days for other duties. By having multiple days in the roster booked for routes gives you the flexibility and helps reduce costs with providing refresher days that would require rest day working.

My depot doesn't have specific route refresher days built in because the theory is that they are easily missed. I could be on leave that week, on a course, assessment, off sick, etc. Again, its about giving you rostering flexibility.

I don't work for Avanti so its difficult to comment on their depot specifics but there are always underlying reasons for some of the oddities of the weird and wonderful place we work.
 

Watershed

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Two round trips Crewe - Chester/Holyhead is also feasible.
Crewe to Chester would be - but not Crewe to Holyhead as, even with perfect timings, that won't fit in a Liverpool diagram given the need for a pass ride to/from Crewe/Chester.
 

Bald Rick

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Apart from a double Birmingham we’ve previously established there’s nothing they could do due to the length of the routes. Plus triangular diagrams allows more interworking.

Two round trips Crewe - Chester/Holyhead is also feasible.

All sorts of things are feasible that could make diagrams more efficient. Just one example: A round trip Manchester or Liverpool to London and back, followed by a short working to Crewe or Stoke and back (Or vice versa). Plenty of other examples.


I did have a quick look on the RSSB website but couldn't find what I was looking for so anecdotally (with a smidge of real experience and industry knowledge) There are various ways of dealing with incidents. One strategy is to keep your diagrams sufficiently varied to prevent under-load or risks introduced through constant repetition. This is particularly relevant for Metro routes where you can run over the same route multiple times in a day. This can lead to assuming where you get signalled and predicting signal sequences. This can also apply to mainline routes, especially where routes may be epic in terms of mileage but not in variety.

Another reason for varying routes on a diagram is to help with route and traction knowledge retention. We have routes where they are limited by traction. We have diagrams that are used purely to maintain route knowledge. The whole Driver diagramming can be incredibly complex. There may be a case where trips do not fit is an diagram so need to be split. I remember an issue with a Thameslink depot where they discovered that you could drive a route in one direction but wouldn't be able to make it back to your depot in the same diagram; so it gets chopped up into chunks.

I'm not saying that this is specific for Avanti but I can understand why it may occur.




This opens up too many questions for me. 10 days a year is a tiny amount in real terms. I've refresh many routes in my years and some will take a day to get and in some cases, just a single trip. I'd also ask if the routes that need to be covered run regularly. We have a few routes where trains rarely run so trying to get that refreshed can be a miracle at times. When you limit route refresh days, you are also reducing the opportunity to get them. This introduces the risk where Drivers could simply remove the route from their route cards which would cause more issues.

I'd also want to know what the route learning strategy is. Does each route have a minimum number of days required to maintain competence ? Are the routes covered by a suitable route story with different learning styles incorporated to any learning plans ? Can they be learned digitally etc. ?

I'd also ask about how the refresher days are used. Are they booked on the roster and used as spare/as required turns or are they specifically restricted to route refreshing as @LowLevel level stated, you often get pulled off your refresher days for other duties. By having multiple days in the roster booked for routes gives you the flexibility and helps reduce costs with providing refresher days that would require rest day working.

My depot doesn't have specific route refresher days built in because the theory is that they are easily missed. I could be on leave that week, on a course, assessment, off sick, etc. Again, its about giving you rostering flexibility.

I don't work for Avanti so its difficult to comment on their depot specifics but there are always underlying reasons for some of the oddities of the weird and wonderful place we work.

Great post - I’ve PMd you.
 

ComUtoR

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Two round trips Crewe - Chester/Holyhead is also feasible.

Crewe to Chester would be - but not Crewe to Holyhead as, even with perfect timings, that won't fit in a Liverpool diagram given the need for a pass ride to/from Crewe/Chester.

Have you also included walking times, connection times, PNBs etc? What about the fatigue index ?
 
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HamworthyGoods

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Crewe to Chester would be - but not Crewe to Holyhead as, even with perfect timings, that won't fit in a Liverpool diagram given the need for a pass ride to/from Crewe/Chester.

I was more thinking for the new Holyhead drivers so no passing involved.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Are the slower off-WCML routes subject to the same no-repeat policy?
Crewe-Holyhead is only a 90-mph route (if that), and TfW apparently runs the same route without restriction.
Crewe-Chester has become pretty much a shuttle with the limited Avanti timetable.
 

317 forever

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Even if you get rid of First/MTR, would any other company want to take on the West Coast with all the various problems it has?

I suspect it will end up with the OLR, who has to take on extra members of staff to cope with dealing with 4 companies.
Avanti is actually First & Trenitalia. It's South Western Railway that is run by First & MTR.

But yes, allowing for how long the tendering process could take, together with lack of detail as to how post-Covid tendering would look no longer being traditional franchises, the only alternative to Avanti would for a few years be OLR.
 
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