Avanti West Coast - County Court judgement

[Chris Butler]

I got so fed up with Avanti's (and LNER's) handling of my Delay Reply that I made a claim against them and now have a (County) court judgement against them. They have not paid me and so I am now entitled to send bailiffs to collect the debt. Before I do that I would like to give them 7 days to promise to pay, but I am not going to waste time calling or writing. So:-

1. Does anyone have an e-mail address for Avanti, ideally for their legal department ?
   
   
2. Their registered address is
   
   First Trenitalia West Coast Rail Limited
   8th Floor, The Point
   37 North Wharf Road
   London
   W2 IAF.
   
   I assume that this is a 'real' office with employees and desks and other assets in it (which bailiffs could take away). Does anyone know for sure if that is true? Some companies, but typically far smaller ones, use an accountants' or 'service' address as their registered address.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Hi,

More knowledgeable experts like @Hadders and I believe also @Watershed, @RPI and @AlterEgo will soon be available to help you.

As for the email address, it should be as follows:
[email protected]

 

[All Line Rover]

Whether or not it is an office with real people is irrelevant. A company's registered office address is its service address, to which you should direct any legal paperwork.

 

[Chris Butler]

Whether or not it is an office with real people is irrelevant. A company's registered office address is its service address, to which you should direct any legal paperwork.

I know that.

The issue is that it's no good sending bailiffs to somewhere with no people or assets, regardless of whether it's the registered address or not. If you do they can't do anything.

However, now I have an e-mail address that will probably work.

Hi,

More knowledgeable experts like @Hadders and I believe also @Watershed, @RPI and @AlterEgo will soon be available to help you.

As for the email address, it should be as follows:
[email protected]

Many thanks. The e-mail address will, in my experience, crack it.

 

[Watershed]

I got so fed up with Avanti's (and LNER's) handling of my Delay Reply that I made a claim against them and now have a (County) court judgement against them. They have not paid me and so I am now entitled to send bailiffs to collect the debt. Before I do that I would like to give them 7 days to promise to pay, but I am not going to waste time calling or writing. So:-

1. Does anyone have an e-mail address for Avanti, ideally for their legal department ?

I don't have an email address for their legal department, but contacting Richard Scott, their Head of Corporate Affairs might get the ball rolling. I imagine his email address might be in the usual firstname.lastname format. Bear in mind that Avanti may try and make a set aside application against your default judgment, so the fact that you have a CCJ is not necessarily the end of the story.

1. Their registered address is
   
   First Trenitalia West Coast Rail Limited
   8th Floor, The Point
   37 North Wharf Road
   London
   W2 IAF.
   
   I assume that this is a 'real' office with employees and desks and other assets in it (which bailiffs could take away). Does anyone know for sure if that is true? Some companies, but typically far smaller ones, use an accountants' or 'service' address as their registered address.

It looks like there are many different companies registered at that address, so you could not in any way guarantee that the assets there belonged to Avanti in particular. I don't think it would be a worthwhile target for bailiffs, although it may be the correspondence address you want to use.

Directing bailiffs to one of Avanti's ticket offices, on the other hand, could be much more fruitful. I would assume your judgment is of a sufficiently low value that the cash float - which undeniably does belong to Avanti - would satisfy it. Although that could certainly get 'interesting' if the BTP were called!

Many thanks. The e-mail address will, in my experience, crack it.

I wouldn't expect correspondence to that email address to get any sort of rapid response, especially with the current volume of strike related enquiries. Many operators have months-long backlogs at the moment.

 

[AlterEgo]

Many thanks. The e-mail address will, in my experience, crack it.

No, don't use that, that'll go to a big bin with all the complaints. It won't get dealt with for a long time.

Their actual office (you have to go to the Privacy Policy on their site for this) is:

Victoria Square House, 1 Pinfold Street, Birmingham, B2 4AA

and I guarantee it is a real office with a reception and people inside and an appropriate place to send bailiffs.

 

[scrapy]

Directing bailiffs to one of Avanti's ticket offices, on the other hand, could be much more fruitful. I would assume your judgment is of a sufficiently low value that the cash float - which undeniably does belong to Avanti - would satisfy it. Although that could certainly get 'interesting' if the BTP were called!

Unless invited in or entering through an unlocked door or window, I don't believe county court bailiffs can enter the secure area of a ticket office. Maybe at somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly where it's more open plan although I don't think staff have to give them access to the safe.

I'm unsure whether a baliff can breach railway byelaws whilst acting in the course of their duties. If they enter an area that's restricted and are asked by an authorised person to leave but don't, I would guess they are still breaching byelaws and can be prosecuted. Trespass on the railway is a criminal not civil matter and includes station buildings etc not just railway tracks unlike when a baliff enters a home without force which is not.

 

[Watershed]

Unless invited in or entering through an unlocked door or window, I don't believe county court bailiffs can enter the secure area of a ticket office. Maybe at somewhere like Manchester Piccadilly where it's more open plan although I don't think staff have to give them access to the safe.

I'm unsure whether a baliff can breach railway byelaws whilst acting in the course of their duties. If they enter an area that's restricted and are asked by an authorised person to leave but don't, I would guess they are still breaching byelaws and can be prosecuted. Trespass on the railway is a criminal not civil matter and includes station buildings etc not just railway tracks unlike when a baliff enters a home without force which is not.

Most Avanti ticket offices don't have 'secure areas' anymore, they just have a counter that could, in extremis, be stepped over.

The warrant or High Court writ of control (depending on the value of this judgment) authorises to bailiff to use reasonable force, if necessary, to obtain access to a commercial debtor's premises and to take items to the value of the debt. When it comes to commercial debtors, effectively nothing is off limits as far as bailiffs are concerned, and they cannot be forced to leave the premises; it is an offence to obstruct bailiffs from conducting their lawful duties. It has even been known for bailiffs to (threaten to) seize aircraft in enforcing debts!

Of course whilst that is the legal position, the practical one is that if a bailiff tried to take cash from a ticket office, I expect the CCJ would be satisfied very quickly indeed, but you might well expect a set aside application to follow.

 

[RPI]

I've been tagged in this but this is certainly well outside of my expertise, but I certainly wish the OP well in recovering what is owed.

 

[Titfield]

Most Avanti ticket offices don't have 'secure areas' anymore, they just have a counter that could, in extremis, be stepped over.

The warrant or High Court writ of control (depending on the value of this judgment) authorises to bailiff to use reasonable force, if necessary, to obtain access to a commercial debtor's premises and to take items to the value of the debt. When it comes to commercial debtors, effectively nothing is off limits as far as bailiffs are concerned, and they cannot be forced to leave the premises; it is an offence to obstruct bailiffs from conducting their lawful duties. It has even been known for bailiffs to (threaten to) seize aircraft in enforcing debts!

Of course whilst that is the legal position, the practical one is that if a bailiff tried to take cash from a ticket office, I expect the CCJ would be satisfied very quickly indeed, but you might well expect a set aside application to follow.

I am not sure the Bailiffs would take anything but simply get "walk in possession" agreed which means that Avanti would have so many days to settle the debt and if they don't then the items would be removed.

 

[Watershed]

I am not sure the Bailiffs would take anything but simply get "walk in possession" agreed which means that Avanti would have so many days to settle the debt and if they don't then the items would be removed.

That's also very common, particularly in a case such as this where the debtor is incredibly unlikely to try and frustrate any controlled goods agreement.

 

[MadMac]

The various debt forums have a lot of stories about this sort of thing. One fellow got a default judgement against Barclays, so after repeated attempts to get settlement, he sent the bailiffs to one of their branches where they proceeded to carry out an asset valuation! The branch manager made several phone calls and was authorised to issue a cheque in settlement on the spot.

 

[Hadders]

This is outside my area of expertise but I do have a bit of experience of being on the receiving end of bailiffs, in not disimilar circumstances, with my former employer.

I was an Area Nanager for a larger retail chain of grocery stores. Invoice processing was dealt with centrally and as often happens in this situation some invoices had gone astray and not been paid. These included the business rates bill for a handful of stores. It wasn't a case of couldn't pay but more hadn't paid.

One day a store manager called me to say he'd got bailiffs in his office about an unpaid rates bill. The bill was for a different store but the bailiffs had decided to target a different store as it was nearer to their offices. I spoke to the bailiff by telephobe and then phoned the invoice processing team and arranged for the bill to be settled in cash from the store safe. It was all very amicable and while a bit inconvenient everything was resolved.

It might be best to put Euston or Birmigham New Street ticket office down as the address. At least there will be cash available there to settle the debt.

 

[ainsworth74]

I do wish you well with this OP and please do keep us informed in how you get on!

 

[WF4HA5HE]

I got so fed up with Avanti's (and LNER's) handling of my Delay Reply that I made a claim against them and now have a (County) court judgement against them. They have not paid me and so I am now entitled to send bailiffs to collect the debt. Before I do that I would like to give them 7 days to promise to pay, but I am not going to waste time calling or writing. So:-

1. Does anyone have an e-mail address for Avanti, ideally for their legal department ?
   
   
2. Their registered address is
   
   First Trenitalia West Coast Rail Limited
   8th Floor, The Point
   37 North Wharf Road
   London
   W2 IAF.
   
   I assume that this is a 'real' office with employees and desks and other assets in it (which bailiffs could take away). Does anyone know for sure if that is true? Some companies, but typically far smaller ones, use an accountants' or 'service' address as their registered address.

Wow im surprised they even let it get this far. I thought someone in legal would just tell someone in customer relations to pay the claim (regardless of the amount because I expect it would cost much more to fight it). Good luck and keep us updated

 

[Dore & Totley]

Wow im surprised they even let it get this far. I thought someone in legal would just tell someone in customer relations to pay the claim (regardless of the amount because I expect it would cost much more to fight it). Good luck and keep us updated

It happens a lot with big corporations, paperwork doesn't get to the right person quick enough. When I worked in the Court Service we dealt with many applications to set aside judgments from big firms

 

[LowLevel]

I'd certainly find being a fly on the wall interesting. I suspect any attempt to gain access to the secure area of Euston travel centre would result in a fairly instant and large scale police attendance though what the result would be once things had a chance to calm down would be worth watching!

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

How much £ are we talking ?

 

[island]

I'd certainly find being a fly on the wall interesting. I suspect any attempt to gain access to the secure area of Euston travel centre would result in a fairly instant and large scale police attendance though what the result would be once things had a chance to calm down would be worth watching!

Once the police had inspected the enforcement agent's warrant and satisfied themselves that the enforcement agent had the right to be there under the court order, the police would have no further role or powers to intervene, although they might opt to do so to prevent any breaches of the peace.

 

[spag23]

although they might opt to do so to prevent any breaches of the peace.

For example, any obstruction of a court official?

 

[some bloke]

Journalists and campaigners might be interested in the time and place.

 

[greyman42]

Journalists and campaigners might be interested in the time and place.

If you could get a national newspaper interested (The Daily Mail cover this sort of thing in their consumer protection section) then you are likely to get "a gesture of goodwill payment" on top of what you are already due. They do this to try and off set the bad publicity they receive from having the story in a national newspaper.

 

[matt_world2004]

Bailiffs have gone into airports to seize items belonging to airlines . So I doubt stations are as secure as that

 

[Haywain]

Bailiffs have gone into airports to seize items belonging to airlines . So I doubt stations are as secure as that

Let's get real. Bailiffs do not randomly seize goods, and in the first instance always look to speak to someone in a position of authority. They are not going to be jumping over the counter to snatch money from the till.

 

[ashkeba]

The furniture, espresso machine and catering stock in the first class lounge are probably worth enough to settle many small dbets.

 

[Gonzoiku]

The furniture, espresso machine and catering stock in the first class lounge are probably worth enough to settle many small dbets.

But don't forget that the bailiff's fee is added to the "small debt"!

GZ

 

[Chris Butler]

Hi,

More knowledgeable experts like @Hadders and I believe also @Watershed, @RPI and @AlterEgo will soon be available to help you.

As for the email address, it should be as follows:
[email protected]

No, don't use that, that'll go to a big bin with all the complaints. It won't get dealt with for a long time.

Their actual office (you have to go to the Privacy Policy on their site for this) is:

Victoria Square House, 1 Pinfold Street, Birmingham, B2 4AA

and I guarantee it is a real office with a reception and people inside and an appropriate place to send bailiffs.

SouthEastBuses Thanks for this. An e-mail did it. I gave them a deadline to pay or get a visit from the bailiffs to the address that AlterEgo supplied below. They paid on deadline day.

That's always been my experience with larger companies. They more often than not don't respond to a Default Judgement without a threat of bailiffs, at which point they cough up.​

 

[Wolfie]

This is outside my area of expertise but I do have a bit of experience of being on the receiving end of bailiffs, in not disimilar circumstances, with my former employer.

I was an Area Nanager for a larger retail chain of grocery stores. Invoice processing was dealt with centrally and as often happens in this situation some invoices had gone astray and not been paid. These included the business rates bill for a handful of stores. It wasn't a case of couldn't pay but more hadn't paid.

One day a store manager called me to say he'd got bailiffs in his office about an unpaid rates bill. The bill was for a different store but the bailiffs had decided to target a different store as it was nearer to their offices. I spoke to the bailiff by telephobe and then phoned the invoice processing team and arranged for the bill to be settled in cash from the store safe. It was all very amicable and while a bit inconvenient everything was resolved.

It might be best to put Euston or Birmigham New Street ticket office down as the address. At least there will be cash available there to settle the debt.

Would the fact that Euston and Brum New Street are operated by Network Rail complicate matters?

The furniture, espresso machine and catering stock in the first class lounge are probably worth enough to settle many small dbets.

If they are owned and not leased....

 

[Watershed]

Would the fact that Euston and Brum New Street are operated by Network Rail complicate matters?

The station may be operated by Network Rail but they do not run any ticket offices. Both ticket offices are run by Avanti - in that respect Network Rail, as the freeholder, are no more relevant than they would be if you sent bailiffs to a branch of WH Smith or Greggs at a station.

 

[Wolfie]

The station may be operated by Network Rail but they do not run any ticket offices. Both ticket offices are run by Avanti - in that respect Network Rail, as the freeholder, are no more relevant than they would be if you sent bailiffs to a branch of WH Smith or Greggs at a station.

Ok, TY.