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Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by jopsuk, 6 Dec 2019.
via Richard Clinnick on Twitter:
From Richard Clinnick's Twitter. Photo attached in the tweet of an artist's impression of two Hitachi trains in Avanti livery at New Street.
I wasn't wrong then
7 car is an odd choice. Is this perhaps the maximum that will fit at Liverpool South Parkway?
The livery really suits them, by the way.
They look like 26m sets - the photo shows a long overhang after the door.
I've set up a thread for anyone to discuss their predictions, hopes and preferences for the new trains: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ock-predictions-hopes-and-preferences.196295/
That will allow this thread to concentrate on actual updates regarding the new stock.
I don't think this a prediction, hope or preference...
These units are clearly not going to tilt. What are the consequences I wonder in terms of:
- ability to be pathed on the same path as a 390/tilting voyager could/keep to 390/tilting voyager timings?
- ability to play catch up when the service is in recovery mode (and so using every bit of linespeed it can).
If they can't do this, it throws up the question why is the DfT allowing a new performance risk on the WCML and potentially slower journeys.
If they can do this, it throws up the question why the taxpayer paid a lot of money to upgrade the line to allow tilting trains.
If infrastructure changes are required to allow this is begs the question how is this to be funded and programmed and has NR agreed to do it/that it can be done. We seem to be building up quite a habit of ordering trains that require infrastructure upgrades which are not done by the time the trains arrive and meant to be being paid for through earning fares. It also raises the question why these upgrades were not carried out originally in preference to reconfiguring the WCML to allow for tilting trains.
Perhaps the answer is that conventional trains have now moved on design wise to the point that they can go faster around corners without tilting or faster in-between corners, but I really struggle to believe that bearing in mind TGVs have been around for longer than 390s.
Realistically the 7 car units will end up focused on the Birmingham - Scotland routes so tilt is less of an issue. (and conveniently go past the Wolverhampton depot). 7 cars is a good realistic starting length for those services.
The London - Birmingham Scotland and London - Holyhead voyager operated services have fewer stops than Pendolino operated services so tilt is less of an issue as the difference can be made up for with not having some of the stops.
Acceleration on electric will also be far better than Voyager.
As we already know what the traction will be, is the new thread to discuss potential interiors and train infrastructure ?
Just if you can clarify it would be good seeing as we know it’s been confirmed that Hitachi has the order.
TPE are going to run 125 non-tilt on the WCML already are they not? Or certainly rumours of such.
The acceleration of these 800 units is staggering, so I don't think it'll be a performance issue.
This isn't about 390s...
Performance on electric will be much better than voyagers outside of any tilt related issues. Hence the lack of tilt is compensated for.
[Tilt added about 8tonnes per car to the voyagers]
Although the Voyager services have few southern WCML stops they have a huge number north of Rugby hence improving the time lost during stops is good way of improving overall performance. (Horses for courses)
Line speeds can some times be down to track forces on weak structures so having much lighter trains can help in this regard.
The electric only versions should be around 10-10.5tonnes per car lighter than 390 (and longer too).
So is that the livery? Teal/Charcoal/White (Looks slightly resemblant to BR of sorts!) I sort of like it!
The Hitachi press release is certainly worth a read.
One of the highlights being that their will be 453 seats on a 7-car EMUs and 301 seats on a 5-car bi-modes, 43 more than on the current 221s.
It also states that the EMUs will operate between London, the West Midlands and Liverpool, with the bi-modes of cause for London to North Wales.
The new Hitachi fleet will be maintained at Oxley by a joint Alstom/Hitachi team.
We wait to find out the solution to the 125mph non-tilt problem.
I have it in writing from First/Trenitalia that the new 800s (as we now know) will be able to keep to Pendo/Voyager timings without tilt due to their superior acceleration. That may be the case but I would imagine there would be a lot more braking needed around the bendy bits than is needed on a Pendo, might make for a less comfortable ride?
So do we reckon the entire Liverpool service might go over to Hitachi including the existing one? So that'd be 14 (longer) coaches per hour - which would seem about right? The present service is about 2h10, which if you put layovers in would probably give you about a 5 hour round trip - so 10 units for a half hourly service, which coincidentally is precisely how many there are.
The mention of West Midlands is interesting, I guess they'd just be used on the services that are presently 5 car Voyagers for a capacity uplift - the second Liverpool isn't via Brum, is it? That might also mean the former isn't the case as there'd be none spare for it.
The livery looks quite good on them - I assume there's an operational reason for the electric versions being 7-car, but that's not likely to be popular. Will they really be able to get as much capacity as a 9-car pendolino in one? The vehicle length isn't that much different, they'll still be a full 36m shorter than a 9-car Pendolino set.
As for class numbers, I'd assume 802/4 and 803/1, but then TOPS and logic
There is a lot of wasted space in a Pendolino due to the then regulations about passengers in the front coach at 140mph (which is what they were designed for). You could probably gain at least 10-15m by getting rid of that. Possibly also a smaller kitchen for the new food concept?
Does the passenger accommodation start where the windows do? Because comparing that to the 5-car 802s with their kitchen area at one end, I'd say there's a lot more 'non-passenger' space in the latter.
I don't want to start the age old discussion, but given First are the majority stakeholder here, I think it's also a foregone conclusion what seating will be fitted to these units, which does make a genuine point about, for those that really can't stand them, they'll soon be difficult to avoid when travelling north from London.
Thinking on, on the Pendolino you also use pretty much half a coach on the shop. You'd get about 10m back if you removed it, or about 8m if you just had a small one like LNER do.
Some might but definitely not the entire Liverpool service. Seven cars are insufficient capacity for the peak-time runs where the timetable has been two trains per hour of mainly 11 cars for many years, and the first post-peak train from London to Liverpool and vice versa would surely have to remain 11 car too, i.e. the 1907 Euston - Lime Street, as that (or its future equivalent) will still be very well loaded irrespective of the additional train per hour.
The suggestion of using the balance of the new electrics on the London - Birmingham - Scotland services makes a lot more sense to me, but is there not an SDO issue preventing the Pendolinos stopping at Liverpool South Parkway without platform lengthening?
Yes, the new Avanti West Coast livery was unveiled last Wednesday.
You can't diagram ten units out of ten in daily service: There's always going to be at least one on maintenance. I'd assume the ten units would cover the new hourly Liverpool - Euston service (c.5 trains) and one Birmingham - Euston service per hour (c.4 trains with turnaround time).
A Pendolino vehicle seats a maximum of 76, an 80x vehicle seats a maximum of 88. Dead easy to fit 453 seats into a 7-car class 80x unit. To take the layout of a 9-car LNER Azuma set as a template:
Driving Trailer Pantograph Kitchen First: 15 First
Motor First: 58 First
Motor Standard: 88 Standard
Motor Standard: 88 Standard
Motor Standard (Shop): 72 Standard
Motor Standard: 88 Standard
Driving Trailer Pantograph Standard: 48 Standard
Which would give 73 First, 384 Standard, or a total of 457 seats. Put a couple of extra luggage racks in somewhere in standard and you end up with a total of 453. There're other configurations that would achieve a similar total.
By comparison a 9-car Pendolino has 99 First, 370 Standard giving a total of 469 seats.
That livery looks stunning on them.
It's not too shabby, although why 23? just round it up to 24 units!
Presumably because that's the number of trains the diagrams demand? What's so special about the number 24?
It's already an increase in 3 units over the current Voyager fleet, and a significant increase in seats, which is nice.
Because that's another £15 million?
Actually, the 800's acceleration is not much quicker than a Class 390 Pendolino, to make any significant time difference I recently sampled an LNER Class 800 running northbound out of Carlisle. Whilst the Class 800 was initially able to open up a small time advantage over my last recorded Class 390 run, the lack of tilt meant it was several minutes behind the 390 by the time we were passing Thankerton and slowing down for the Junction to Edinburgh at Carstairs.
Unless some significant infrastructure changes to allow higher speeds take place - there will potentially be slower journeys using this new stock. Seems a step backwards not to order more tilting trains. That applies to TPE CAF Class 397's too.
Kinda disappointed. So many 8xx all over the place now, i guess they were better suited than the 397 but then again its first so.
are the 7 carriage electric trains still confirmed for liverpool services as originally planned or not?? Iam seeing various sources
Yes, it's stated in the Hitachi press release:
I would scrap all the existing trains on the West coast line and bring in new trains because at the moment the Azumas are better. Plus First have nice new trains.
As the Pendolinos have rather tight legroom, and the other 80xs have generous legroom, I'm surprised a 7 car trains is equivalent to a 9 car 390?