Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[Flying Snail]

What by a 100%?

Standard fares seem much the same.

Have walk-up 1st class fares increased by 100%? No.

Comparing the price of bargain 1st class advances that were often considerably cheaper than walk-up standard class fares is a failure to understand how 1st class is a viable product. The only way for it to cover the cost of lower seats per carriage and extra service and staff costs is to charge a significant premium for 1st.

The increase in cost of advances is being accompanied by a massive reduction in 1st class accommodation, 2.5 carriages down to 1.5 on 9 car trains, with 11 coach trains losing more than half being reduced from 3.5 to 1.5. With the .5 being the not very pleasant staff mess.

To make the remaining 1st carriage anything close to an appealing prospect for those willing to pay, or have their employer pay, walk-up 1st fares they need to massively cull the bargain hunters.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is all very intetesting.... but ... Avanti, like some other TOCs and airlines have algorithms in their pricing systems that pitch the prices at what they believe the market will bear, based on history, ticket sales, and many other factors. The algorithms might be wrong of course, but on the information they have now, that is what they expect the market to bear to enable maximum revenue.

 

[Starmill]

But I'm not sure what the relevance of SP is to this. Avanti may well have increased fares without it.

At the moment the availability of the lower fares will be reduced anyway by simple fact of there being fewer services. Avanti also know that their timetables may need to be reduced again, and that many people are still uncomfortable around very busy trains. Those latter two aren't particularly reasons to make fewer tickets available but why take the risk until you know, if you're still selling space well?

It's also worth noting that long-term Standard Premier will attract some bookings out of Standard, by virtue of lower marginal prices. Therefore as no Standard accommodation is being cut I would expect to see a small increase in the availability of the cheapest Standard tickets. But not yet.

 

[Djgr]

Isn't everyone supposed to be simplifying the fares structure? So why has Avanti introduced a third class? And why do I feel that this will not end well?

 

[BluePenguin]

Isn't everyone supposed to be simplifying the fares structure? So why has Avanti introduced a third class? And why do I feel that this will not end well?

Because we live in a world of savvy savers looking for deals and the best value fares. People want more for less, not the other way round. Businesses want to increase profit but reduce costs while the rest of us want a bargain but demand maximum frills . My great feeling is that Standard is suppose to look a bargain, by making Standard Premium and First more expensive. Anyone with money has plenty of ticket options to massage their ego.

With the world finances being the way they are, we can't spend as much as we did in the past. The is not the glamorous 80s anymore. We are going through tough economic circumstances and this will indeed not end well. The trains will run, people will not travel, they will make a loss and cut services as nobody is using them without questioning why.

 

[Butts]

Indeed Butts, I was looking at going to Glasgow from the Midlands in First, much cheaper with LNER from Newark.

I have to get from Euston to Sandwell & Dudley with my Son at the end of October - late on a Sunday so tickets not available yet.

Looking at Sunday 26th September for guidance - Cheapest with 2 Together Railcard £20 each Standard Premium or £38 each 1st Class.

Advance 1st Class Fares on this journey late teens/early twenties used to be plentiful prior to SP arriving.

Believe it or not the £38 fare is almost a bargain by the new metric.

If the Free Scotch is flowing again by October I may grin and bear it otherwise would go for SP at £20 each and stock up at the station.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I was selling tickets today to 2x Senior Railcard holders travelling between Preston and Glasgow in around a fortnight.

Their tickets in Standard only cost around £44 in total, but First Class had no advance tickets available in either direction, so would have been roughly £162. Ouch.

 

[Bungle73]

Have walk-up 1st class fares increased by 100%? No.

Comparing the price of bargain 1st class advances that were often considerably cheaper than walk-up standard class fares is a failure to understand how 1st class is a viable product. The only way for it to cover the cost of lower seats per carriage and extra service and staff costs is to charge a significant premium for 1st.

The increase in cost of advances is being accompanied by a massive reduction in 1st class accommodation, 2.5 carriages down to 1.5 on 9 car trains, with 11 coach trains losing more than half being reduced from 3.5 to 1.5. With the .5 being the not very pleasant staff mess.

To make the remaining 1st carriage anything close to an appealing prospect for those willing to pay, or have their employer pay, walk-up 1st fares they need to massively cull the bargain hunters.

So what does this mean for services that only pack a single FC carriage? Kept as First? Changed to SP??

I've been keen to get back to Chester, but have been put off, a) because there are hardly any direct services now, and b) there have been zero Advance fares available, for Standard or First. I would have been paying a similar amount to travel Standard as I'd previously paid to travel First!

My preference has always been to travel First, with a cheap First Advance. Are those days over, and I'm no relegated to Standard?

Interestingly I've had no issue obtaining cheap First Advances from LNER for journeys later in the year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So what does this mean for services that only pack a single FC carriage? Kept as First? Changed to SP??

SP isn't offered on Voyagers.

 

[Bungle73]

SP isn't offered on Voyagers.

OK, thanks. Does that mean I might be in luck then.......if and when they decide to reinstate those services?

 

[Merseysider]

Believe it or not the £38 fare is almost a bargain by the new metric.

For a journey of ~120 miles I’d say that’s still a pretty good deal!

Those without a railcard however might think differently...

 

[glynmonhughes]

Anyone remember Silver Standard in the 1980s? Used it Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston a few times. Same seats with a coffee and a croissant thrown in, I think. But the was BR InterCity running a three-class service, so not that much different, really.

 

[voyagerdude220]

New First Class menus still not on Avanti's website.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have 2x Standard Premium tickets from Glasgow to Milton Keynes in 2.5 weeks (Sunday), they're in coach J, low numbered seats. Does that not suggest that ONLY coach K (which is a bit crap) is 1st class?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have 2x Standard Premium tickets from Glasgow to Milton Keynes in 2.5 weeks (Sunday), they're in coach J, low numbered seats. Does that not suggest that ONLY coach K (which is a bit crap) is 1st class?

I suspect that's a mistake.

 

[BHXDMT]

I have 2x Standard Premium tickets from Glasgow to Milton Keynes in 2.5 weeks (Sunday), they're in coach J, low numbered seats. Does that not suggest that ONLY coach K (which is a bit crap) is 1st class?

A TM recently told me that at weekends First would only be half of J and all of K, so make of that what you will.

 

[Vespa]

My seat going from Liverpool to London is Coach J seat 14 in a few weeks time.

Coming back is Coach K.

I hope I'm getting a full First Class meal in both directions !

 

[Trackman]

A TM recently told me that at weekends First would only be half of J and all of K, so make of that what you will.

Makes sense.

I'm off on my usual trip next week, standard premium has put me in H, which is correct (diagrammed a 9 car).

 

[Mag_seven]

A TM recently told me that at weekends First would only be half of J and all of K, so make of that what you will.

If that is correct I only hope that all seats in coach K (including the ones at the very back) are kept free for first class ticket holders and that on board staff don't get funny about passengers sitting in them as has been reported frequently before.

 

[Djgr]

Anyone remember Silver Standard in the 1980s? Used it Liverpool Lime Street to London Euston a few times. Same seats with a coffee and a croissant thrown in, I think. But the was BR InterCity running a three-class service, so not that much different, really.

Operating three classes has been tried on a number of occasions and has never gone well.

And of course the fares structure is meant to be being simplified and this does exactly the opposite. Sigh.

 

[Merseysider]

And when a Pendolino gets swapped out for a double Voyager, as happened to me last month, what then?

“Sorry, you can’t sit in this First Class seat in case anybody stupid enough to pay the full £300 1st open fare turns up, but you can write to Avanti customer service who’ll probably ignore you for a month or two then offer a half-arsed apology with a copy & paste response and no refund unless you bother really chasing it”

Or... “Sorry, the bloke opposite you is getting food because he paid extra. You’re not getting any even though you did pay extra, because you didn’t pay enough extra.”

 

[takno]

Operating three classes has been tried on a number of occasions and has never gone well.

And of course the fares structure is meant to be being simplified and this does exactly the opposite. Sigh.

I'm not convinced people find multiple classes confusing, or that the people the higher classes are targeted at are the people griping about the size and complexity of fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And when a Pendolino gets swapped out for a double Voyager, as happened to me last month, what then?

“Sorry, you can’t sit in this First Class seat in case anybody stupid enough to pay the full £300 1st open fare turns up, but you can write to Avanti customer service who’ll probably ignore you for a month or two then offer a half-arsed apology with a copy & paste response and no refund unless you bother really chasing it”

Or... “Sorry, the bloke opposite you is getting food because he paid extra. You’re not getting any even though you did pay extra, because you didn’t pay enough extra.”

The obvious answer might be to make Coach D SP. It's not as good as 1st but it is better than the rest of the train.

Or are there now sets without an all tables coach?

 

[Wolfie]

The obvious answer might be to make Coach D SP. It's not as good as 1st but it is better than the rest of the train.

Or are there now sets without an all tables coach?

Doesn't comply with their advertised SP offering which they clearly state is not available on Voyagers.

Standard Premium | Train Travel | Onboard |Avanti West Coast

Introducing our brand new onboard experience - Standard Premium. Upgrade from Standard and treat yourself to extra comfort, more room and a table top on your next journey.

www.avantiwestcoast.co.uk

 

[D6130]

Operating three classes has been tried on a number of occasions and has never gone well.

It has to be said that Avanti's parent company, Trenitalia - and its open access rival, Italo - both successfully operate a four class structure on their high-speed services in Italy.

 

[superalbs]

It has to be said that Avanti's parent company, Trenitalia - and its open access rival, Italo - both successfully operate a four class structure on their high-speed services in Italy.

Italo is three class now, with the 'Comfort' class seemingly having vanished. But still three classes, and four is true for Trenitalia.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Italo is three class now, with the 'Comfort' class seemingly having vanished. But still three classes, and four is true for Trenitalia.

The website still talks of four.

 

[Mountain Man]

There has been a growth in the number of seat types/classes on airlines in recent years, and the success of Premium Economy shows that passengers can handle fine, and if anything, want, a tailored range of seat options. On short haul flights equivalent in travel time to many Avanti journeys plenty of airlines extra leg room seats and is basically what Avanti are offering the equivalent of

 

[The Prisoner]

So what does this mean for services that only pack a single FC carriage? Kept as First? Changed to SP??

I've been keen to get back to Chester, but have been put off, a) because there are hardly any direct services now, and b) there have been zero Advance fares available, for Standard or First. I would have been paying a similar amount to travel Standard as I'd previously paid to travel First!

My preference has always been to travel First, with a cheap First Advance. Are those days over, and I'm no relegated to Standard?

Interestingly I've had no issue obtaining cheap First Advances from LNER for journeys later in the year.

I live in Chester - it's not good that Avanti have been so poor with the route. Most routes have been reinstated to approaching pre-pandemic frequencies whilst Chester and North Wales have lost something like two thirds of services with no sign of reinstatement.

Knock on is that Chester - Crewe is reduced by approaching half of the services, with the remaining services typically two car TfW services with arms and legs out of the window and ironic huge 2m social distancing stickers everywhere.

Expect the new IETs on this route won't feature new class as they are 5 car.

The busiest train of the day was always the 0935 to London - ironically currently missing from the timetable - and Virgin used to give half and sometimes all of coach D over as first class as well as coach E meaning that there were just three coaches for standard class. Usually meant they couldn't allow passengers on from Crewe onwards. Try three classes on that as a five car and it will be game over.

 

[ServerHoster]

I have a carriage J reservation for my journey, too.