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Avanti West Coast timetable

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Bletchleyite

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Back to bang my late night slow journey drum once again ;) The 2330 tonight is - as always - true to form, taking 1h43, despite going via Weedon!

There must be scope to run these as set down only, a la ECML services, so they can take the time advantage where circumstance allows?

That one is timed nearly an hour from Euston to MKC as it sits behind a stopper (due to the 2-track timetable). They used to stick a 57 on the front for driver familiarity purposes, as there was no need for it to run at 125.
 
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Jimini

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That one is timed nearly an hour from Euston to MKC as it sits behind a stopper (due to the 2-track timetable). They used to stick a 57 on the front for driver familiarity purposes, as there was no need for it to run at 125.

Same as the 2230 it seems, stuck behind 2N99 on the slow lines. I can see there's a 608Y parked up on the down fast at Tring which more than answers my question, I guess. Just frustrates somewhat, with the obligatory closure that means that anything heading north after half-nine results in a journey that warrants a travel cushion!

A cursory glance at the ECML shows - again - many fast services drop off only and will likely run significantly ahead of schedule (and close to daytime journey times as a result).
 

seagull

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Those last two Avanti (then Virgin) services from Euston always used to be set-down only north of Milton Keynes, until the 2011 timetable. The advantage being that on occasions when there was still a four-track railway in use, or enough of it to be able to get past the stopping services, it was possibly to arrive in Birmingham/Wolverhampton well ahead of schedule. The disadvantage being that you normally couldn't know this in advance...
 

47827

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Those last two Avanti (then Virgin) services from Euston always used to be set-down only north of Milton Keynes, until the 2011 timetable. The advantage being that on occasions when there was still a four-track railway in use, or enough of it to be able to get past the stopping services, it was possibly to arrive in Birmingham/Wolverhampton well ahead of schedule. The disadvantage being that you normally couldn't know this in advance...

Had a good few runs on the last Euston to Wolves over 20 years ago and recall some set down only stops but generally it ran via Nuneaton the nights I chose. A couple of times it was attached at Rugby at weekends but in later years it was dragged throughout a handful of weekday nights per month usually via Nuneaton but occasionally via Coventry with the wires off. 2345 off Euston back then and would chug its way into Wolves after 2am usually. Usually we'd be up the fasts on class 86 timings to Rugby but as it was the last one it had a bit more give. 47476 Night Mail in early parcels livery was one of the more regular ones on such workings on the then WCML thunderbird, Salop and Nuneaton drag circuits. It sounds like despite the rolling stock etc being worlds apart that the timetable has gone backwards. Can't say the 2345 ex Euston would have carried more than a hundred on a good night though. Usually home of many Walkman wielding glaring and intimidating types, thus brave for the Wolves guard to bother with tickets (and some certainly didn't).
 

Bald Rick

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Had a good few runs on the last Euston to Wolves over 20 years ago and recall some set down only stops but generally it ran via Nuneaton the nights I chose. A couple of times it was attached at Rugby at weekends but in later years it was dragged throughout a handful of weekday nights per month usually via Nuneaton but occasionally via Coventry with the wires off. 2345 off Euston back then and would chug its way into Wolves after 2am usually. Usually we'd be up the fasts on class 86 timings to Rugby but as it was the last one it had a bit more give. 47476 Night Mail in early parcels livery was one of the more regular ones on such workings on the then WCML thunderbird, Salop and Nuneaton drag circuits. It sounds like despite the rolling stock etc being worlds apart that the timetable has gone backwards. Can't say the 2345 ex Euston would have carried more than a hundred on a good night though. Usually home of many Walkman wielding glaring and intimidating types, thus brave for the Wolves guard to bother with tickets (and some certainly didn't).

the only time I ever got the 2345, which I’m fairly sure was 19/10/1999, we were dragged from Nuneaton. Unfortunately we then came to a stop at Bromford for a couple of hours, as a train of tanks had derailed on the goods lines. Fortunately it was not quite foul of our line, and we arrived New St at about 0400. Free Taxi home, 90mins shut eye then back to London for work!
 

Kite159

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Those last two Avanti (then Virgin) services from Euston always used to be set-down only north of Milton Keynes, until the 2011 timetable. The advantage being that on occasions when there was still a four-track railway in use, or enough of it to be able to get past the stopping services, it was possibly to arrive in Birmingham/Wolverhampton well ahead of schedule. The disadvantage being that you normally couldn't know this in advance...

I suspect with it being set-down only at the likes of Birmingham New Street & Coventry, the station staff there could lock up the station and then escort any passengers alighting from the train out of the station via a single door, without the hassle of drunks hanging around on the platform at half one in the morning waiting for the last Wolverhampton train.
 

47827

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the only time I ever got the 2345, which I’m fairly sure was 19/10/1999, we were dragged from Nuneaton. Unfortunately we then came to a stop at Bromford for a couple of hours, as a train of tanks had derailed on the goods lines. Fortunately it was not quite foul of our line, and we arrived New St at about 0400. Free Taxi home, 90mins shut eye then back to London for work!

Owch. Similar arrival times/issues on the diverted F24 and equivalent late running on Saturday nights into the Sunday AM into Liverpool, also diesel worked. Waiting at Crewe with locked waiting rooms until 02xx instead of 23xx followed by clashing with the dregs of the nightclubs in a very long taxi queue (before the night buses came on stream) was all too high octane, especially in cold months of the year. Oh, then back out with the house guests for an early ish train on the Sunday.

On weeknights the 2345 Euston to Wolves being late wasn't unwelcome as the 03xx Birmingham to Manchester Airport (Central Trains) unit was the get out after a good wait.

I still can't believe some of the Avanti reduced timetables though as they make the service in the 90s, at its worst, look pretty good for some routes. Hourly Birmingham to Euston was one example, the other the much discussed Holyhead/Chester links being trashed. It would be interesting to know on a typical day how much waste there is on the crew rosters as a result at the various depots (especially with the great reduction in absences compared to December when the cuts were urgently brought in).
 

Geezertronic

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I've given up with the Avanti services for the time being due to the Birmingham frequency as I always catch a LNWR train from Birmingham to Euston (change at Rugby for the faster ex-Crrewe service), and almost certainly end up catching a LNWR train from Euston back to Birmingham again with the change at Rugby (or Northampton on the quicker Northampton terminators)
 

Bald Rick

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I've given up with the Avanti services for the time being due to the Birmingham frequency as I always catch a LNWR train from Birmingham to Euston (change at Rugby for the faster ex-Crrewe service), and almost certainly end up catching a LNWR train from Euston back to Birmingham again with the change at Rugby (or Northampton on the quicker Northampton terminators)

I’m surprised at that. To get the ex Crewe service (Rugby d xx53) you need to be at Rugby on the xx15 WMT arrival from New St, which departs New Street at xx33 the previous hour. Using this connection, departing New Street at, say, 1233 would get you to Euston at 1450.

Alternatively, with Avanti you could leave New St at 1250 and arrive 1416, or 1310 arriving 1437 (1440 FO).

Presumably you are doing this for price ? As Avanti is much quicker and back at 2tph.
 

Watershed

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I’m surprised at that. To get the ex Crewe service (Rugby d xx53) you need to be at Rugby on the xx15 WMT arrival from New St, which departs New Street at xx33 the previous hour. Using this connection, departing New Street at, say, 1233 would get you to Euston at 1450.

Alternatively, with Avanti you could leave New St at 1250 and arrive 1416, or 1310 arriving 1437 (1440 FO).

Presumably you are doing this for price ? As Avanti is much quicker and back at 2tph.
Up until this week, Avanti were only running 1tph on weekdays, meaning that if you had just missed that it usually quicker to catch the next LNR service, taking 1'58" (southbound - northbound there's still a wait at Northampton or a change at Rugby).

Avanti's service was also slower as it stopped additionally at Rugby, so the journey time was 1'34".

With Avanti back at 2tph this changes things slightly, but the journey time difference, especially in the southbound direction, is nowhere near as stark as it once was.
 

Geezertronic

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I’m surprised at that. To get the ex Crewe service (Rugby d xx53) you need to be at Rugby on the xx15 WMT arrival from New St, which departs New Street at xx33 the previous hour. Using this connection, departing New Street at, say, 1233 would get you to Euston at 1450.

Alternatively, with Avanti you could leave New St at 1250 and arrive 1416, or 1310 arriving 1437 (1440 FO).

Presumably you are doing this for price ? As Avanti is much quicker and back at 2tph.

Since January I've had to catch the 0626 from Marston Green, change at Rugby to either the 0710 fast LNWR ex Crewe or the 0707 Avanti ex Lancaster to reach Euston. On the return, I'd always arrive at Euston too late for the hourly Avanti service so I'd try and catch the next LNWR fast to Crewe and change at Rugby, or the next LNWR to Northampton and change there if a quicker connection was available.

In the AM, the Avanti services were timed either too early or too late to reach Euston. I used to catch the 0640 Avanti service from Birmingham International to Euston but that stopped running. I notice that service is now back so will catch that service when I go on Tuesday. I also notice that service is timed at 1h 14m rather than the 1h 21m it was timed for before with what appears to be the the same stopping pattern
 

Bald Rick

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Since January I've had to catch the 0626 from Marston Green, change at Rugby to either the 0710 fast LNWR ex Crewe or the 0707 Avanti ex Lancaster to reach Euston. On the return, I'd always arrive at Euston too late for the hourly Avanti service so I'd try and catch the next LNWR fast to Crewe and change at Rugby, or the next LNWR to Northampton and change there if a quicker connection was available.

In the AM, the Avanti services were timed either too early or too late to reach Euston. I used to catch the 0640 Avanti service from Birmingham International to Euston but that stopped running. I notice that service is now back so will catch that service when I go on Tuesday. I also notice that service is timed at 1h 14m rather than the 1h 21m it was timed for before with what appears to be the the same stopping pattern

Ah, right, I understand now. Thanks. You also get a good connection at Inter off the xx23 back.
 

Jimini

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Even better this week -- the 2230 and 2330 are slow as always to MK, then via. Weedon to Rugby, then diverted via. Nuneaton and Stafford, so not serving Coventry or either Brum stations. Planned engineering works -- understood -- but an even less attractive service provision this week! Last train from London to Brum at 2138 then... lovely stuff.
 

47827

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Even better this week -- the 2230 and 2330 are slow as always to MK, then via. Weedon to Rugby, then diverted via. Nuneaton and Stafford, so not serving Coventry or either Brum stations. Planned engineering works -- understood -- but an even less attractive service provision this week! Last train from London to Brum at 2138 then... lovely stuff.

It's a shame running them with Voyagers via Nuneaton then Water Orton to serve Birmingham isn't possible given that drags are no longer possible.
 

Class 170101

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It's a shame running them with Voyagers via Nuneaton then Water Orton to serve Birmingham isn't possible given that drags are no longer possible.
Its a shame its not electrified so Pendolinos can use it :E
 

Oxfordblues

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I recently travelled on 9M53 the 11:48 Pendolino Blackpool North - Euston between Preston and Wolverhampton. Departure from Preston was on-time, after a 13-minute layover. but passing Farington the driver then performed a moving air-brake-test. This meant that we were 1 minute late leaving both Wigan and Warrington, before recovering to a punctual departure from Crewe.

This raised a number of questions in my mind:
(1) Assuming that there had already been a moving brake-test on departure from Blackpool, why was another one necessary from Preston?
(2) If two brake-tests are deemed to be imperative, why was one not required leaving Wigan?
(3) Timetable-compilers must be aware of the brake-test requirement, so why don't they make provision in the schedules?
(4) Why haven't Avanti's performance managers not insisted on 1-minute later advertised departures from Wigan and Warrington?

and finally:
(5) Arrival at Crewe is scheduled at 13:00, but the advertised arrival time is 12:57. So if the train were actually on-time it would appear to be 3 minutes late! Why is this?

Incidentally, we had yet another moving brake-test after departure from Crewe!
 

Watershed

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Assuming that there had already been a moving brake-test on departure from Blackpool, why was another one necessary from Preston?
Because there would likely have been a crew change at Preston, meaning that the new driver had to establish the performance of the (unfamiliar to them) unit using the running brake test (RBT).

If two brake-tests are deemed to be imperative, why was one not required leaving Wigan?
Because Wigan isn't a crew change location for Avanti.

Timetable-compilers must be aware of the brake-test requirement, so why don't they make provision in the schedules?
You raise a good point. For Avanti, LNER, XC etc. services, where there will almost always be a crew change at certain locations (e.g. Preston, Newcastle, Leeds), IMHO it would make absolute sense to mandate an adjustment allowance after departure, to account for the inevitable RBT. Indeed this is already mandated in the Western & Wales region for GWR services on 80x timing loads.

I suppose the primary logic for not having such a rule elsewhere is that the timings and headways should have sufficient built-in 'slack' to recover such micro-delays - and this change was, AFAIK, brought about in connection with the lower headway (2 mins) which was adopted on the line from Paddington to Reading, in preparation for the GWR December 19 timetable change. This left less room between the planning headway and the technical headway. This is in contrast with the WCML for example, which has a technical headway as low as 90 seconds, even on some of the 125mph stretches, but is still planned on a minimum of 3 minutes.

Moreover, in many cases, introducing adjustment allowances would not be possible without rewriting the timetable. So even if the rules changed, they would probably have to 'grandfather in' existing services that wouldn't work any other way.

It's also worth noting that some services will have many potential crew relief points - e.g. a Manchester Airport to Barrow service could have crew changes at any of Manchester Oxford Road, Wigan, Preston or Lancaster, and the most efficient relief point will vary by train. Therefore, Operators don't want to tie themselves into relieving at one specific station when they are bidding the timetable, as they will not start producing crew diagrams until they have confirmed timings for all the trains in the timetable. And equally, it is very unlikely that all possible relief points would be utilised on a given train.

Notwithstanding all of the above, there are proposals to introduce driver change adjustment allowances in some areas, and I'd say it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it could end up extending beyond the Western region.

Why haven't Avanti's performance managers not insisted on 1-minute later advertised departures from Wigan and Warrington?
To maximise punctuality, you want advertised departures to be as early as possible, and advertised arrivals to be as late as possible, so that you can "underpromise and overdeliver" (or, more realistically, to allow the train to leave a little bit earlier if it's ready, whilst leaving some "slack" in case of delays).

Of course that must be balanced with commercial considerations in terms of journey time. But - passengers are really just interested in whether they arrive on time, not whether they depart late and make up some time.

Arrival at Crewe is scheduled at 13:00, but the advertised arrival time is 12:57. So if the train were actually on-time it would appear to be 3 minutes late! Why is this?
There are a number of Avanti and other operators' services which are advertised to arrive before they're scheduled to do so. In this case, I can see no obvious reason for it, and the train is virtually guaranteed to arrive late as you say. However, in other cases there can be good reasons for doing so.

For example, journey planners etc. do not like services that are advertised to depart before they arrive - they may throw up errors. So if there is a standard 15 minute allowance for Single Line Working on a given part of a route (say Newcastle to Durham), you wouldn't want trains to sit around for 15 minutes at Durham on days where the Single Line Working doesn't occur, or is further south.

So you might decide to advertise the arrival and departure at Durham 15 mins prior to their scheduled values, to allow for an immediate departure on days where the SLW doesn't materialise, and accept the cost of Delay Repay on the (rare) occasions where it does happen. You would then go back to advertising the booked times at the next major station (e.g. York), or at the end of the SLW.

Incidentally, we had yet another moving brake-test after departure from Crewe!
It's possible there was another crew change, although as far as I'm aware, most of the Blackpool/Edinburgh via Birmingham services only have crew changes at Preston and Wolverhampton or Birmingham. Drivers are authorised - encouraged, indeed - to undertake RBTs if they are ever in doubt of a unit's braking capabilities, for example if they suspect low adhesion due to the onset of rain after a prolonged dry spell.

It's also possible it was simply a TSR or ESR, although I'm not aware of any in place immediately south of Crewe.
 
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voyagerdude220

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The Avanti Preston to Birmingham services often leave Wigan and Warrington the odd minute or two late southbound despite leaving Preston on time because they're quite tightly timed as Oxfordblues describes- with no dwell times on the public timetable (the working timetable has a minute or two allocated to each stop) only for them to make up time between Warrington and Crewe thanks to the slack in the timetable. Why trains aren't scheduled say:

Preston xx17
Wigan xx28-xx30
Warrington xx40-xx42
Crewe xx59- xx01

I don't know unless re timing them would have a knock on effect somewhere?
 

The Planner

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Western have added time in for running brake tests in for years at specific locations and made wider as time has gone on. Since at least 2008 and the timetable has slowly incorporated them since with flexing. Elsewhere it will mainly be because it breaks the timetable or not considered an issue.
 

PMH

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Not sure if this is the right place to post, but trying not to spam the board with new threads.

Trying to get a single from Glasgow - Crewe Sunday 15th May but timetable not showing yet. Any idea when it'll be up?
 

Carlisle

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Western have added time in for running brake tests in for years at specific locations and made wider as time has gone on. Since at least 2008 and the timetable has slowly incorporated them since with flexing. Elsewhere it will mainly be because it breaks the timetable or not considered an issue.
Hard to believe its a critical issue on most of the WCML given the engineering/pathing allowances that already exist going by RTT .
 
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CHESHIRECAT

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Noriced last nights 1852 Edinburgh Euston cancelled throughout...usual 'issue with train crew'
Bit unfortunate as last train of day from Lancaster/Preston to London!

And nothing today due West Coast closed south of MK!
 

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Noriced last nights 1852 Edinburgh Euston cancelled throughout...usual 'issue with train crew'
Bit unfortunate as last train of day from Lancaster/Preston to London!

And nothing today due West Coast closed south of MK!
The 1840 Glasgow to Euston ran late and provided a service at Lancaster/Preston just after the times that the Edinburgh train was due, so people wouldn't have been stranded
 

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The 1840 Glasgow to Euston ran late and provided a service at Lancaster/Preston just after the times that the Edinburgh train was due, so people wouldn't have been stranded
That was a good move. Not ideal for those booked on the 18:40 but if the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure they'd be grateful.
 

CHESHIRECAT

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That was a good move. Not ideal for those booked on the 18:40 but if the shoe was on the other foot I'm sure they'd be grateful.
The Edinburgh service is booked via West Midlands so not sure what would have to them!
 

dk1

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The Edinburgh service is booked via West Midlands so not sure what would have to them!
It gets everyone to London that wants it & serves intermediate stations en-route. Those for the West Mids can bail further down the line for a connection or a very short RR bus or taxi ride compared to what they would’ve had to endure. It’s a win win in my book.
 
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