Azuma horn blocked by snow

[kingqueen]

1E10 delayed at York today whilst the driver got onto the track and cleared the snow from the horn, using hot water from the catering trolley. (several cups and then a jug)

 

[LowLevel]

Not an unusual problem on any train, unfortunately, particularly with dry powdery snow like we've had today.

 

[py_megapixel]

Probably a stupid question, but wouldn't the air pressure and vibrations in the horn when it's sounded be enough to get rid of the snow?

 

[aleggatta]

Does this class of train feature horn heaters out of curiosity? I know Electrostars had horn/coupler heaters retrofitted around the same time 'Ice mode' was fitted. I also appreciate that they might already have them but have been overwhelmed!

 

[kingqueen]

I've seen articles online whereby Greater Anglia have fitted "snow socks" to their horns to mitigate this issue.

 

[DarloRich]

Probably a stupid question, but wouldn't the air pressure and vibrations in the horn when it's sounded be enough to get rid of the snow?

I don't think so as it is a fairly common occurrence. I suppose the air movement of the train and wind chill (?) compacts the snow

 

[FQTV]

A couple of years ago I was party to an announcement from the driver of a Transpennine Express 185 that: 'We have come to a stand because I have lost my horn.'

 

[skyhigh]

It's happened plenty of times today- Azumas, various Northern and TPE stock, and that's just the incidents I've heard of. It's a very very common issue in winter when it starts snowing. Even with a snow sock it can still get blocked.

 

[delt1c]

Thats why Inverness 26's got plates fitted in front of the horns on the class 26,s

 

[fgwrich]

It's happened plenty of times today- Azumas, various Northern and TPE stock, and that's just the incidents I've heard of. It's a very very common issue in winter when it starts snowing. Even with a snow sock it can still get blocked.

Seems to be a common problem with all the 80X fleets this week. A comment made by a driver who had to call out Hitachi fitters this afternoon said that Hitachi Staff wish they'd put them somewhere better (currently located under the nose cone and not far off Rail Height).

 

[northernbelle]

It's happened plenty of times today- Azumas, various Northern and TPE stock, and that's just the incidents I've heard of. It's a very very common issue in winter when it starts snowing. Even with a snow sock it can still get blocked.

Yep, as you say it's a problem on all types of rolling stock. There's little you can do to stop snow getting in the horns short of putting them behind a solid panel and then you have the challenge of them not being loud enough - 'back in the day', I doubt there were volume standards that Class 26s had to legally meet.

The old fashion solution is for driver/fitters to periodically spray cans of de-icer into them along with the driver regularly sounding the horns - both far from infallible though.

1E10 delayed at York today whilst the driver got onto the track and cleared the snow from the horn, using hot water from the catering trolley. (several cups and then a jug)

That can often make it worse - with the residual water refreezing into solid ice.

 

[scotraildriver]

I've never known a Class 156 to have horn issues. They are in an enclosed box with open sides under the cab. Works well.

 

[InOban]

Seems to be a common problem with all the 80X fleets this week. A comment made by a driver who had to call out Hitachi fitters this afternoon said that Hitachi Staff wish they'd put them somewhere better (currently located under the nose cone and not far off Rail Height).

That's what I was thinking. Who on earth thought it was a good idea to mount the horn so low down?

 

[theironroad]

Swr desiros had the same issue when new. They were retrofitted with a mesh iirc. Couplers were retrofitted with heating when temp is below a certain level.

 

[fgwrich]

That's what I was thinking. Who on earth thought it was a good idea to mount the horn so low down?

It's another area where the 80X suffers from Styling over Substance / Engineering. Of course, by locating them under the nose also means that the only attention they can receive has to be at a depot too.

Another 801 suffered from a stuck horn and a broken window due to snow and ice build up today too. Given that they are internally mounted, that'll be a fun job for the depot tonight.

 

[scotraildriver]

Scotrail's class 334 don't normally have issues either. The horn trumpets are recessed in the cab roof. Simple design but not carried forward to newer fleets.

 

[kingqueen]

I heard over the radio, Control relaying to Despatch a message from Maintenance asking Despatch to relay to the driver a request to get onto the track and to clear the snow in this manner.
Despatch seemed most surprised at this request and asked Control to confirm that Maintenance were not in fact going to come over.
Control confirmed, and said that if the driver was unwilling or unable to sort this issue, there would have to be a set swap.
It all sounded quite a convoluted route for such messaging, to be honest - risked Chinese whispers.
I did wonder if the hot water could eventually cause more problems by freezing, but that's definitely what Maintenance asked the Driver to do (via control and despatch...)

 

[northernbelle]

That's what I was thinking. Who on earth thought it was a good idea to mount the horn so low down?

I'd question if it was entirely due to the height - I remember HSTs having iced-up horns over the years and they are at the same height as the light clusters rather than at rail level. There's definitely a case for having some standard de-icer on board - that usually helps and is more effective than hot water that tends to re-freeze quite quickly. I know the GWR 80x were fitted with 'snow socks' soon after introduction - not sure about the LNER/TPE sets though.

I think it's also fair to say this is the biggest snow event we've since since the 80x entered service en masse, and there's still some learning to be done. I can remember with several fleets - someone upthread mentioned Desiros - lessons being learnt as operational experience was gained. A few hard lessons had to be learnt with the 80x's beloved predecessor as well. I recall reading that Chiltern reversed the direction of the horn trumpets on the 168s - although in 2021 the more particular requirements around horn volume might make this trickier on newer stock that has to comply with the TSI.

 

[theageofthetra]

I heard over the radio, Control relaying to Despatch a message from Maintenance asking Despatch to relay to the driver a request to get onto the track and to clear the snow in this manner.
Despatch seemed most surprised at this request and asked Control to confirm that Maintenance were not in fact going to come over.
Control confirmed, and said that if the driver was unwilling or unable to sort this issue, there would have to be a set swap.
It all sounded quite a convoluted route for such messaging, to be honest - risked Chinese whispers.
I did wonder if the hot water could eventually cause more problems by freezing, but that's definitely what Maintenance asked the Driver to do (via control and despatch...)

Wouldn’t be doing that in a third rail area!

 

[Aictos]

Scotrail's class 334 don't normally have issues either. The horn trumpets are recessed in the cab roof. Simple design but not carried forward to newer fleets.

As do the Class 317/1s, supposed there was a reasoning for them being moved though in newer fleets.

 

[Pete_uk]

Put a sock on it!

 

[seagull]

The industry supplier/importer of Airchime horns does offer heated versions, it is also possible to buy either bolted on or quick release clamp versions of wire mesh snow cones to fit them, but as always I suppose the cost-benefit analysis of either approach, given our infrequent snow events, is unfavourable.
The cheap and cheerful alternative, the horn "sock", works up to a point but they tend to wear quickly, fall off or, because they fit snugly around the opening, go solid with snow and ice and then cause the same problem.

(Photo of wire mesh snow cones on a K5LA horn)

 

[LowLevel]

Looking at the ECML incident reports for delayed trains today there seems to be a ton of reports of IET sets from LNER and TPE having failed horns and spurious hot axle box detector activations. Perhaps they have discovered another weakness in the design.

 

[O L Leigh]

That can often make it worse - with the residual water refreezing into solid ice.

I've done this before on a Cl317 when the horns froze. The trick is to pour the water around the outside of the horns and connecting air pipes.

 

[MCR247]

Does anyone know if this is the reason 1S12 1030 KX - Edinburgh was terminated at Biggleswade with the Azuma returning back south (Bounds Green I assume?). We stopped just after Hitchin for half an hour with catering staff going towards the front of the train with lots of hot water. We eventually got going again only to stop again and the TM announced we’d be detraining at Biggleswade.
I noticed that when the ECS left the front (out of KX) coupler hatch was open and the coupler seemed quite snowy/icy which I thought was odd as it was a 9 car

 

[800001]

Does anyone know if this is the reason 1S12 1030 KX - Edinburgh was terminated at Biggleswade with the Azuma returning back south (Bounds Green I assume?). We stopped just after Hitchin for half an hour with catering staff going towards the front of the train with lots of hot water. We eventually got going again only to stop again and the TM announced we’d be detraining at Biggleswade.
I noticed that when the ECS left the front (out of KX) coupler hatch was open and the coupler seemed quite snowy/icy which I thought was odd as it was a 9 car

Correct issues with horns, and then 1S15 which collected customers had the same issue, which they managed to overcome.

 

[MCR247]

Correct issues with horns, and then 1S15 which collected customers had the same issue, which they managed to overcome.

Thanks for confirming. Seems a bad day today for them. I noticed 1D11 was late when it screamed past at Biggleswade which I assumed was down to it being stuck behind but RTT says it lost time shortly after KGX so a similar issue there?

 

[800001]

Thanks for confirming. Seems a bad day today for them. I noticed 1D11 was late when it screamed past at Biggleswade which I assumed was down to it being stuck behind but RTT says it lost time shortly after KGX so a similar issue there?

There's been about 15-20 services at least all been at a stand at some point for the drivers to clear the horns.
Also several being display false Hot Axle detections.

 

[pdeaves]

Also several being display false Hot Axle detections.

Speculating, but might that be because it's so cold any normal temperature 'seems' too hot? Are the triggers from on board or ground-based detectors?

 

[kingqueen]

Scotsman report on it