Azuma seating

[takno]

Worth remembering that many of the sets from various fleets are due to spend a long time being stripped down and welded to provide a fix for the ‘cracking’ issue, so there is presumably a timescale opportunity without taking them out of service again. Nevertheless, I can’t see it happening somehow. It’s money that the industry just doesn’t have.

I agree that we're probably past the point of playing the blame game, and actually have to figure out where the money is coming from, and the answer for this year is likely to be nowhere. The problem is that the longer the trains are running about the place without suitable seats for a long journey, the less people will be willing to use them, and the lost revenue cost will quickly overtake the cost of doing the work.

We're committed to paying for the rails and for Hitachi to keep presenting the bodyshells into service every day, and for the non-fixed costs, most of the routes these things run on easily pay their way, so on a purely commercial basis it makes sense to fix the problem. Most likely that means the leasing company will end up paying for the work in return for an increase in the leasing costs.

 

[Flying Snail]

All they need to do is replace the base cushion. TfW's otherwise identical seats don't have the problem - the bar just isn't there however hard you push down looking for it.

It's going to have to be done at some point, there's barely anything left to sit on in some of the older sets. They just have to make sure they don't specify the same base cushion as the replacement.

The TFW ones have been in use less than a year, too early to tell if they will have the same collapsing problem.

Is the bar not part of the seat frame rather than the cushion? I'm sure I've seen a pic of a removed one and the cushion part has a notch in it.

It's all fiddling with deckchairs anyway when it comes to this awful product, nothing short of replacing the whole seat will be an acceptable solution.

Such an obviously cheap and nasty seat should never have been considered for IC trains in the first place but that doesn't excuse Fainsa for producing such defective junk, that company should be blackballed from ever supplying the industry again, including for replacement seat cushions.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The TFW ones have been in use less than a year, too early to tell if they will have the same collapsing problem.

I could feel the bar from day one on the 80x. If you push down hard with your hand on a TFW cushion in the same place where the bar is, you can't feel it, it simply seems not to be there at all. I think it may just have a flat plate between it and the cushion, which avoids the issue - I have no problem with hard seats, indeed I prefer them, I just don't like the bar!

 

[Mikey C]

All very well that there is a different government in charge, but where do you suggest the money comes from at a time when there are far more important things to spend money on and many things to blame the 'last lot' for.

The cost of replacing seats is peanuts when compared to the major capital projects that have been shelved.

And these aren't trains operating on some minor backwater, they are flagship trains operating on some of the key routes connecting up the UK.

 

[irish_rail]

All very well that there is a different government in charge, but where do you suggest the money comes from at a time when there are far more important things to spend money on and many things to blame the 'last lot' for.

I'm guessing you don't use 80x stock frequently. I'd argue a seat that is fit for purpose is absolute top priority . We live in a supposedly first word country , yet are subjected to sitting routinely on seats that are actually broken. More attention on these unglamorous everyday matters and perhaps less on the high profile " nice to haves" like HS2 is where we need to be going.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

All I'm praying is they fix the 700s at the same time should such a programme be initiated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All I'm praying is they fix the 700s at the same time should such a programme be initiated.

The 700 seats are hard but don't suffer the same problem. They aren't to everyone's preference but personally I think they're fine for their intended purpose - considerably better for example than the horribly shaped seats on the 777.

 

[JonathanH]

The cost of replacing seats is peanuts when compared to the major capital projects that have been shelved.

So what? That doesn't mean the money is available, no matter how much it is. The capital projects have been cut to release money to the Treasury, not to reallocate it to other railway projects.

And these aren't trains operating on some minor backwater, they are flagship trains operating on some of the key routes connecting up the UK.

Is there actual evidence that this is affecting passenger numbers and revenue?

 

[Haywain]

The cost of replacing seats is peanuts when compared to the major capital projects that have been shelved.

I have no idea how much the seats cost, but if we guess at around £500 each, that would be around £250,000 per 9 coach set just to buy them. They have to be fitted as well. Across the combined fleets that doesn't add up to a trivial amount of money.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

personally I think they're fine for their intended purpose

Going off topic so I'll keep to this one reply and no more, but the problem ultimately arises from the fact the intended purpose does not align with the actual usecase of the trains. Intended for Croydon - London Bridge, actually used for Brighton to St Pancras.

 

[thomalex]

Interesting video on these seats, well the GWR ones but they are the same, and you can see the 'bar' when the seat is lifted up.

It seems to me it's these bottom cushion units that need to be specified with a stronger cushion, thicker cushion or base and installed across the fleet, not whole new seating

 

[takno]

Interesting video on these seats, well the GWR ones but they are the same, and you can see the 'bar' when the seat is lifted up.

It seems to me it's these bottom cushion units that need to be specified with a stronger cushion, thicker cushion or base and installed across the fleet, not whole new seating

Realistically that's unlikely to solve my problems with the seating, to the point where I'll still not use the trains. It's the least they can do though, and it will probably be enough to stave off significant loss of revenue.

It is odd how poorly the baseplate on the seat matches the profile of the top though. It looks like the bit of the seat where you want to put your behind is the absolute thinnest bit of cusion, with the top dipping down, as you'd probably expect, but with the baseplate also rising to up virtually meet the cloth. It's difficult to understand how anybody came up with that design

 

[Wolfie]

So what? That doesn't mean the money is available, no matter how much it is. The capital projects have been cut to release money to the Treasury, not to reallocate it to other railway projects.


Is there actual evidence that this is affecting passenger numbers and revenue?

At some point soon people who suffer actual physical injury from defective seats will start litigating.... That could cost the rail industry a whole lot more.

 

[JonathanH]

At some point soon people who suffer actual physical injury from defective seats will start litigating.... That could cost the rail industry a whole lot more.

How is it going to proved that they were sitting appropriately in those seats, or indeed that it was defective seats that caused physical injury?

 

[Bletchleyite]

At some point soon people who suffer actual physical injury from defective seats will start litigating.... That could cost the rail industry a whole lot more.

I don't think they are realistically going to be causing actual injuries, awful though they are.

I suppose there's a small risk of it causing a deep vein thrombosis if it cut off blood supply, but I just find them horrifically uncomfortable rather than likely to do that.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Last week I travelled up to Leeds and back. Up in an Azuma returning in a loco hauled train both in first class.

The Azuma was adequate although getting a bit uncomfortable even on a two hour journey. The loco hauled stock was much more comfortable.

 

[Narrowgauge725]

Not enjoying the hard base today shame as the leg room is great

 

[TreacleMiller]

There's no plans for a change seating on the 8XX fleet, at least nothing internally known yet.

The surveys have been for seating for the new CAF units only.

The poor quality padding on the seats is well known by senior management. It's passed up by staff frequently.

They'll be a wrangle between the operator, owner and Hitachi about who should foot the bill for anything new. Hitachi have provided what they were told to...

There are certainly lots of issues that are more urgent with the fleet to be resolved first I suspect.

 

[Haywain]

They'll be a wrangle between the operator, owner and Hitachi about who should foot the bill for anything new.

And the DfT.

 

[Abc100]

LNER today emailed round a passenger survey forum asking for the good bits the bad bits and the one thing customers would like to change about the azuma fleet. Does this perhaps show some acknowledgment that improvements are required?

 

[class26]

LNER today emailed round a passenger survey forum asking for the good bits the bad bits and the one thing customers would like to change about the azuma fleet. Does this perhaps show some acknowledgment that improvements are required?

I also received this, didn`t mince my words re the seating !

 

[Abc100]

I also received this, didn`t mince my words re the seating !

Nor myself - looking through the hundreds of responses it’s blatantly clear to them that the seating is a huge issue on long journies!

 

[800001]

No surveys or anything matter unless the DFT/government allow LNER to replace seats to what people believe are more comfortable.
The survey is a wasted exercise.

Hitachi provided to LNER and GWR the seats the DFT ordered.

 

[TreacleMiller]

No surveys or anything matter unless the DFT/government allow LNER to replace seats to what people believe are more comfortable.
The survey is a wasted exercise.

Hitachi provided to LNER and GWR the seats the DFT ordered.

Dont talk facts now.

We have to all hate the 80X because they are "plastic rubbish" as I was told recently. His real gripe was the seating and the fact he wasn't on a HST.

A seat change is needed though, a good number of the standard seats have the metal bar visibly pushing up around the padding now.

 

[class26]

No surveys or anything matter unless the DFT/government allow LNER to replace seats to what people believe are more comfortable.
The survey is a wasted exercise.

Hitachi provided to LNER and GWR the seats the DFT ordered.

Fully aware pf that but I added to my comments how many first class journeys I have decided to drive as my my Jag is WAY more comfortable. I estimate in 2024 so far from me alone they have lost approx£2,000 in fares due entirely to dreadful,. cheap seating. I also added I know of several others personally in the same category. There must be many, many others who think and do the same. That is a huge amount of lost fares.
One day the message will get home I hope as I would prefer to take the train but those seats are simply an insult, thinking we will pay any price.

 

[Towers]

Dont talk facts now.

We have to all hate the 80X because they are "plastic rubbish" as I was told recently. His real gripe was the seating and the fact he wasn't on a HST.

A seat change is needed though, a good number of the standard seats have the metal bar visibly pushing up around the padding now.

He may have just been a spottery HST fan. Or, just perhaps his gripe was that the previous fleet, nearly 50 years old and designed in the 1970s to last a decade or so, was so much better than its multi billion pound, woefully below par replacement?

Anyone with an ounce of appreciation for rail travel, or for the concept of value for money for taxpayers, is entitled to have a ‘gripe’ with the current choice of intercity rolling stock in the UK, it isn’t a good product.

 

[D6130]

He may have just been a spottery HST fan. Or, just perhaps his gripe was that the previous fleet, nearly 50 years old and designed in the 1970s to last a decade or so, was so much better than its multi billion pound, woefully below par replacement?

Anyone with an ounce of appreciation for rail travel, or for the concept of value for money for taxpayers, is entitled to have a ‘gripe’ with the current choice of intercity rolling stock in the UK, it isn’t a good product.

Fully agree. My wife and I actively avoid Azumas, whenever possible, if travelling from Leeds to London and vice-versa. Thank goodness for the remaining Mark 4 sets and RTT. Don't know what we'll do when they are replaced by the new CAF sets....although, hopefully lessons will have been learned and better seats will be provided.

 

[KnobbyGB]

Why would people complain to LNER about the seats? It's not like LNER are magically going to be able to change them. You just stop travelling with them. I know a fair number of (mostly shorter) people who cope with them just fine. I also know a a few people who have switched to air or just use Lumo, but they didn't write an angry letter to LNER, they just changed their travel arrangements.

Why WOULDN'T people complain? I make a point of complaining EVERY time I travel on an LNER Azuma. It's the only way anything will ever change. Just sitting back and 'taking it' is the old traditional British way and is one (not the only) reason why everything is so messed up there now, and going down hill further. Sure, they're not going to spend millions changing those seats because customer numbers and revenue will always be high, but it might just influence their future plans.

 

[dk1]

Why WOULDN'T people complain? I make a point of complaining EVERY time I travel on an LNER Azuma. It's the only way anything will ever change. Just sitting back and 'taking it' is the old traditional British way and is one (not the only) reason why everything is so messed up there now, and going down hill further. Sure, they're not going to spend millions changing those seats because customer numbers and revenue will always be high, but it might just influence their future plans.

I can just imagine their eyes every time they see your name

 

[TreacleMiller]

Why WOULDN'T people complain? I make a point of complaining EVERY time I travel on an LNER Azuma. It's the only way anything will ever change. Just sitting back and 'taking it' is the old traditional British way and is one (not the only) reason why everything is so messed up there now, and going down hill further. Sure, they're not going to spend millions changing those seats because customer numbers and revenue will always be high, but it might just influence their future plans.

Who do you complain to?