Bad design of Thameslink platform departure screens

[HSTEd]

Why were vertically oriented screens selected here?

It does seem a rather odd choice.

 

[800001]

I really like the Thameslink screens, never had an issue reading or understanding them.

I actually wish they were used at other busy stations.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Really? Definitely not the first to depart is it? The "first" train looks to be the second train to me. I can see the first train in the platform, can't I? If that's not the first train, what is it?

Words like "following" or "subsequent" would be more descriptive. But I have concerns what percentage of the population might struggle with what "subsequent" means"

Yes - that's what I thought I said ... the "first" train is the one that's first to leave that platform; in fact it might already be there...

 

[eastwestdivide]

Words like "following" or "subsequent" would be more descriptive. But I have concerns what percentage of the population might struggle with what "subsequent" means"

How about "1st train" or "This train" and for the other "2nd train" in big letters?

 

[Basil Jet]

Why do you need any subsequent train info? It's not like you're wandering from platform to platform looking at these to work out which platform you should be on. The signs in the foyer told you your train is on platform X in 5 minutes. You're on platform X and there's a train going somewhere else in 2 minutes. You wait until it's gone and then your train appears on the screen.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Why do you need any subsequent train info? It's not like you're wandering from platform to platform looking at these to work out which platform you should be on. The signs in the foyer told you your train is on platform X in 5 minutes. You're on platform X and there's a train going somewhere else in 2 minutes. You wait until it's gone and then your train appears on the screen.

It gives you useful additional time to get into position for 8-car or 12-car trains. It also helps to reassure people bound to one of the ‘core’ stations that the ‘next train’ is close behind in case of crowding, also whether either train serves London Bridge or not.

 

[Magdalia]

It gives you useful additional time to get into position for 8-car or 12-car trains. It also helps to reassure people bound to one of the ‘core’ stations that the ‘next train’ is close behind in case of crowding, also whether either train serves London Bridge or not.

I use the Thameslink core and I agree with this from experience. It is particularly important at St Pancras going south and at Blackfriars going north, where two trains can converge almost simultaneously at the entrance to the core, and there is literally a last minute decision on which goes through first.

You wait until it's gone and then your train appears on the screen.

In the core during peak hours there isn't time for that. Passengers need to be ready to minimise dwell times and the reoccupation time is often less than 2 minutes.

 

[BRX]

The subsequent train info is definitely useful. It just should be displayed separately, I think.

 

[Bald Rick]

Why do you need any subsequent train info? It's not like you're wandering from platform to platform looking at these to work out which platform you should be on. The signs in the foyer told you your train is on platform X in 5 minutes. You're on platform X and there's a train going somewhere else in 2 minutes. You wait until it's gone and then your train appears on the screen.

Because there are routinely trains 2 minutes apart, and because of the way the timetable works (using Blackfriars as an example), a train that is displayed in the ‘foyer‘ as 5 minutes away can arrive anywhere between 3 and 8 minutes time. For intending passnegers it is very useful to know the order of trains on the platform, then iu can be in position.

 

[hemsl]

My frustration with these displays is the tendency to convey "additional" information in an unnecessarily long-winded sentence format, which then has to be horizontally scrolled as it's too long to fit on the screen. Admittedly these screens are not alone in this regard.

Rather than: "Thameslink service. 12 cars" which is short enough to be displayed without scrolling...
... it says" "A Thameslink service formed of 12 cars", which is too long to display at once and requires scrolling.

I know it's only a few seconds wait, but these displays surely are intended to display the maximum amount of information with the least amount of friction. And on this occasion, brevity comes with no evident downsides.

 

[BRX]

Here's a view from platform 3 at Blackfriars. The paired screens both relate to platform 2 but it's very easy to read the right hand one as referring to platform 3.


...and when a train gets cancelled we end up with no "2nd train" indication at the top of the RH screen, thus removing one of the few clues that it's talking about the same platform as the LH one.

 

[talldave]

No (I concur with @BRX above; "Next" could be interpreted as meaning the train currently in the platform, which will be the "next" departure)

A single wider display, with the first train on top, and subsequent trains underneath, might be better.

Thameslink already abuses the word "Next" with its on-board announcements. As the train rolls into the platform it announces that "doors will open automatically at the next station". It should be "this station", which would be totally unambiguous.

I do like the Thameslink screens though, despite the aforementioned occasional confusion with late changes. But I do think the "first" screen should be closest to the track.

 

[vuzzeho]

I wonder if the design was chose to mimic (almost skeumorphism) the old dot-matrix displays (like in the image) in layout. Probably would've been better to get a team of designers on it, though. With the advance in tech, it would've been better to design something that can use the more advanced technology to its fullest. Why doesn't the railway go all the way with these things? Just hire a UX designer.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I wonder if the design was chose to mimic (almost skeumorphism) the old dot-matrix displays (like in the image) in layout. Probably would've been better to get a team of designers on it, though. With the advance in tech, it would've been better to design something that can use the more advanced technology to its fullest. Why doesn't the railway go all the way with these things? Just hire a UX designer.

Surely the point is that they're nothing like these in layout - and anyway the main issue being discussed is the way there are several trains displayed right by where the train is at the platform with ambiguity as to which information relates to which train.

 

[Hadders]

Thameslink already abuses the word "Next" with its on-board announcements. As the train rolls into the platform it announces that "doors will open automatically at the next station". It should be "this station", which would be totally unambiguous.

I agree with this! It's bugged me since the 700s started operating.

I do like the Thameslink screens though, despite the aforementioned occasional confusion with late changes. But I do think the "first" screen should be closest to the track.

Nothing wrong with the screns themselves, far better then the previous ones which scrolled horizontally. The only issue is which service the screen nearest the platform should show.

Maybe the screens should be headed 'First Train' and 'Subsequent Trains'

 

[BRX]

The debate about what each screen should have as its heading is a red herring. The fact that it's such a large consideration is a sign that the design is fundamentally problematic.

Likewise the debate about whether the "1st train" screen should be on the left or on the track side.

The problem is having a pair of screens like that, because it's inevitably confusing to a lot of people. Once that decision is made, everything else becomes an attempt to fix the problem. It's something you often see in design: much effort being made to work around a bad decision made earlier in the process, instead of fixing the fundamental flaw itself.

 

[Deepgreen]

I suspect a way to ease confusion would be to have the '1st Train' board with a bright background colour and black writing - the eye would naturally be drawn to that board, I imagine.

 

[Wolfie]

There are alot of issues regarding signage and displays all over the country. Hence my call for uniformity so there is less confusion. Hopefully Great British Railways can negate the problem.

Presumably different TOCS doing different things using different technology at different times. Consistency is good just as long as it doesn't become lowest common denominator rubbish.

 

[Deepgreen]

Presumably different TOCS doing different things using different technology at different times. Consistency is good just as long as it doesn't become lowest common denominator rubbish.

Indeed - privatisation has ruined UK railway information - no consistency, with TOCs trying to be clever by inventing their own pointless different terms for things that have a long history, and therefore acceptance by passengers (e.g. using 'calling points' for stations), and so on. The essence of effective information is its predictability and recognisability of display/appearance across the network, as with TfL.

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed - privatisation has ruined UK railway information - no consistency, with TOCs trying to be clever by inventing their own pointless different terms for things that have a long history, and therefore acceptance by passengers (e.g. using 'calling points' for stations), and so on. The essence of effective information is its predictability and recognisability of display/appearance across the network, as with TfL.

Well said.

 

[b0b]

I wonder if an easy fix would be to lower the right-hand display about a quarter height, so you're drawn to the higher screen.

 

[AM9]

Here's a view from platform 3 at Blackfriars. The paired screens both relate to platform 2 but it's very easy to read the right hand one as referring to platform 3.
View attachment 158724

...and when a train gets cancelled we end up with no "2nd train" indication at the top of the RH screen, thus removing one of the few clues that it's talking about the same platform as the LH one.

View attachment 158725

I can't accept that anything displayed on the two screens shown relates to anything other than platform 2, The 'Platform 2' text across the botton of both screens is about 3 times the size of any text on the two screens, (including the titles at the top of each panel.)

 

[BRX]

I can't accept that anything displayed on the two screens shown relates to anything other than platform 2, The 'Platform 2' text across the botton of both screens is about 3 times the size of any text on the two screens, (including the titles at the top of each panel.)

Do you use Blackfriars station?

 

[AM9]

Do you use Blackfriars station?

Yes, and I've arrived there from the north end and the south end.

 

[stratford]

Nearly all the screens and dot matrix displays on the national network are made by Infotec who configure them to each operator. They all use the same software from reading their website so could all be updated to be consistent, at least in terms of software.

 

[BRX]

Yes, and I've arrived there from the north end and the south end.

While obviously you're technically right that the displays are unambiguous, beause "platform 2" is written underneath them, that doesn't mean much in practice - what matters is how people actually read them. For many people their eye will go straight to the content on the screen because that's what they are used to. It's not normally the case that you have to check for a label under a platform display, because the custom is that it's entirely self evident.

The fact that they've had to label those displays "platform 2" is a clear indication that they've realised there's a potential for it to be misread.

Very often if you're reading a platform display board, you're doing it under time pressure. It's no good requiring people to check for the small print. I know this is not literally small print, but in reality it's one of the last things that will be looked at, if at all.

 

[Via Bank]

Why does the second train need to be shown with equal prominence and an identical design to the first train? Could it not be of the same font size, design etc. as the subsequent departures, tweaked to show calling points if necessary?

 

[D7666]

Speaking as a Thameslink commuter where trips are almost always from Blackfriars northbound, I see no, and never have seen, any problems with the screens as they are, right from day 1 when they were commissioned. They are a damn sight better than almost anywhere else I can think of. A similar quasi core route operation and service is that via Manchester Oxford Road and IME info is no way up to scratch there especially at Piccadilly (unless they have altered this since I was there last a year ago.)

Thameslink left to right reading IMHO is logical and correct. This is a 50/50 argument, and whichever way round they are, it is damned if they do and damned if they don't, so there is no solution to that one. But surely every station concourse that as multiple departure boards arrays e.g. Waterloo, Euston, LST, etc, read left to right. OK those are on concourse not platform, but all should work the same. If you apply the logic some seem to want here, linking the sign with the physical position of the platform, then those concourse boards will be in platform order left to right not train order. Really useful that.

I agree the point about last minute converging trains form two routes immediately south of Blackfriars can be an issue with very last minute updates BUT that is not caused by sign design nor be resolved by altering it. That is an issue by lagging data feeds behind actual train movement (and yes I do know how that works). ( I do not board often southbound at StPancras but assume the issue is the same.))

The 2nd train display is very useful. I use it all the time. First, you get to see if it is FLU or RLU to position yourself in a timely way. Second, Thameslink is 100.00% perfect running isn't it ha-ha they never run late or out of sequence do they ? When there is disruption, even minor disruption, you can get, in my case, two Bedfords closed up, you know the first will get rammed, so wait 2 mins for the second one. And combining, in the right place if this following train is different length. It allows you to position, and take a decision like 1st train RLU 2nd train FLU = no brainer don't wedge into the 1st train, have a bay to yourself on the 2nd. Thirdly, stopping patterns, not all Bedfords (or going south on the Brighton line) are the same (e.g. WHP, Parkway, Leagrave) is it useful to see the calls AND skips when they non-stop. Lastly, why does anyone want this taken away or reduced - removing or reducing information is not what needs to be done.

I am puzzled by the need to have more time to get into position for 8/12 car trains. That is a matter of only 2 car lengths / 40 m in all cases. The info is there. On the very screen people are criticising. Those passengers who are in position before the train arrives should look at the screens for the train consist - which is on the 2nd train screen if the 1st train is still there. Ready passengers should not be last minute stampeding at whatever speed they can move at. No excuse. Of course, there are stampeding last minute arriving passengers, but, again, that one ain't fixed by sign design, no signage can do anything about that.

Cases of 8 vice 12 or v.v. are IME very VERY v-e-r-y rare *** so this one can't be used as a reason for more time. If there is one thing the present enterprise have got right it is getting the right 700 type on the right diagram - which was something any predecessor never got right with 319s right from their day one. Anyone in THIS forum for certain - although does not apply to normals - is fully aware TL operate a mixed 8 and 12 car fleet. If you really REALLY do not know what the train is formed of, then do the f-f-f-f-laming obvious and do not stand at right at the front or rear of the platform, but a bit towards the middle. But I suspect many normals know this anyway, particularly those always using trains in the same service route****.

Just about the only criticism I have of the signs is also one not fixed by sign design. That is when a train is cancelled, they need to IMMEDIATELY clear it down at its booked departure time. There is no purpose to displaying a cancelled train after its booked departure - anyone on the platform ready for it's booked time will have seen it is cancelled, anyone arriving after do not need to know it was cancelled, and all parties need the info to step up to what is running not recent cancellation history. But, as I said, that one is not fixed by sign design.

If - if (and I don't agree anyway) - there is a deep rooted aversion to these signs layout, might I offer one very simple suggestion. The two screens are mounted side by side in portrait format. Turn them 90 deg one above the other into landscape format. 1st train top, 2nd train below. No change in the actual info displayed, but some twiddling of layout to fit. If people can't work that one out, there is no hope.

I think left to right reading is right. In the same sense I think top to bottom is right. No doubt someone will now come along and argue that since the bottom screen is closer to the train, then it should be lower screen 1st train upper screen 2nd train. And one can never win.

*** since 06/16 when 700s started, and my 4000 trips since, I can only think of ONE example where a 8 vice 12 turned up AND I did not know AND it was not on TL live updates AND it was not on the PIS screen.

**** normals can work things out, like where to board trains, for which Tony Hancock in The Rebel had possibly the most novel solution.

 

[AM9]

Even if those for whom left to right is so alien, getting on a wrong route northbound at Blackfriars, or at St Pancras getting a wrong route southbound train happens it really isn't that much of a problem. There are three more stations at which to alight for a same platform change to the correct one. That's hardly going to spoil the day and still gets them to their destination at the same time as planned.

 

[BRX]

As someone who is often getting southbound trains from Blackfriars I can assure you that getting on the wrong train certainly can spoil your day.