Bad Experience on GWR - Bag Removed from Train

[DynamicSpirit]

On Saturday I travelled from London to Cardiff on GWR, with a bicycle and a fair bit of luggage (rucksack + panniers on the bike). I boarded the train, immediately realised that (a) I had no idea how you're supposed to put the bikes in the bike compartments, and (b) if I tried to figure it out while still wearing my large rucksack I'd largely block other passengers from boarding. I therefore instead quickly went to look for seat and having chosen one, left the rucksack on it. so I could return to the bike to try to figure out how to properly get it into the bike compartment. I thought that would only take a few seconds and I'd quickly be back to the seat where I'd left my rucksack - but it turned out that, because those bike racks are so unintuitive, I could not figure it out: In the end, I only managed to get my bike secured with the help of another cyclist who boarded after me and obviously had more experience on those trains. That process took several minutes. I then went to find my seat and sit down - to discover my rucksack was nowhere to be seen. After a short period of looking up and down, becoming extremely worried, a quick chat to a couple of other passengers one of them told me the rucksack had been removed from the train by the staff.

I rushed out the nearest door, luckily to find the rucksack on some kind of wagon on the platform near the door, with a member of staff there, pointed out it was mine and took it back on the train - with just a few minutes to spare before the train was due to leave.

Needless to say I am absolutely shocked at GWR's behaviour here. Besides clothes etc. and pretty much everything, that I needed for the trip, the rucksack contained a very expensive laptop plus data which, if lost, would have lost me several days' work. Not only that, but if it hadn't been for the helpful passenger telling me what had happened, I would have ended up travelling to Wales without the rucksack AND with no idea even where it was.

Because the train was almost due to leave when I recovered the rucksack, there wasn't time to have an extensive conversation with the member of staff looking after the trolley, but the short snippet of conversation I did have seemed absurd. He angrily told me to not to do 'it' again (Unspecified what 'it' was. Bring luggage with me on a long distance train?) and referred to the need to call security (What? The train was jam-packed full of bags that were not attached to their owners. The only different thing about mine that I can think of was that I'd used it for a few moments to 'reserve' the seat I was intending to sit on. That hardly makes a bag a security risk compared to all the others!) And if they were concerned about the bag, what did they do to try to find out who owned it? They obviously didn't try very hard because I wasn't that far away and they did nothing to bring any concerns to my attention when I was on the train.

My intention is to take this up very seriously with GWR, demand a full apology, and make it clear that I regard their actions as attempted theft of my luggage and that if I hadn't had the good luck of retrieving my bag in the nick of time, I would now be in the process of taking legal advice with a view to suing them for many thousands of pounds (ruination of several days of trip, plus the value of the stuff in the rucksack).

But thought I'd post here fiurst to see what people think.

As an aside, what incompetent idiots designed and approved the cycle storage areas on the new GWR trains? As far as I can see, they are totally opaque how you use them, and even once you have figured them out, it's very hard to manipulate your bike into them without blocking other passengers, they require strength to lift and manipulate your bike in an extremely confined space that not everyone with a bike will have, and the design therefore looks to me like a serious safety hazard.

 

[deltic]

Anyone who travels in London will regularly hear the announcement of " unattended luggage may be removed and destroyed". Having just heard a colleague saying that a whole carriage on a London Underground train being in panic about an unattended Deliveroo container I'm not sure I have much sympathy with your situation.

 

[Brissle Girl]

There’s a bit of inconsistency in the story. You mention it was only left for a few moments, but earlier say it was several minutes. There’s a big difference.

Think how the people around you felt. You appear, stick a full rucksack on a seat and disappear off for several minutes. I’m not particularly surprised it was removed - I don’t know if warnings about unattended baggage are still made, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that is the reason your bag was removed.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Have you considered that your action could have led to the station being evacuated, causing delay to thousands of passengers across the network, and your bag destroyed by the security services? Unfortunately in the current security climate unattended bags are a considerable risk. By your own admission it was longer than a moment you left your bag. Can you categorically be sure that staff didn’t ask if the bag belonged to anyone before removing it?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There’s a bit of inconsistency in the story. You mention it was only left for a few moments, but earlier say it was several minutes. There’s a big difference.

The intention was to only leave it for a few seconds. And when I left it, I had no serious reason to believe it would be left for longer than a few seconds. But it turned out the difficulty I had with the bike racks plus other passengers boarding meant I was unable to get back to it for longer.

Have you considered that your action could have led to the station being evacuated, causing delay to thousands of passengers across the network, and your bag destroyed by the security services? Unfortunately in the current security climate unattended bags are a considerable risk. By your own admission it was longer than a moment you left your bag. Can you categorically be sure that staff didn’t ask if the bag belonged to anyone before removing it?

What do you define as 'unattended'? I was a short distance away from my bag trying to attend to my bike. Just about every long distance train has luggage racks at the ends of the carriage where people put luggage and then sit often some distance away, thereby making those bags just as 'unattended' as mine was. I am very certain that my bag was no more 'unattended' than dozens of other bags in that carriage.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

The intention was to only leave it for a few seconds. And when I left it, I had no serious reason to believe it would be left for longer than a few seconds. But it turned out the difficulty I had with the bike racks plus other passengers boarding meant I was unable to get back to it for longer.



What do you define as 'unattended'? I was a short distance away from my bag trying to attend to my bike. Just about every long distance train has luggage racks at the ends of the carriage where people put luggage and then sit often some distance away, thereby making those bags just as 'unattended' as mine was. I am very certain that my bag was no more 'unattended' than dozens of other bags in that carriage.

It does not matter how I define unattended - it is how the station staff define it and follow procedures accordingly.

Perhaps in future ask the staff you are so critical of for help. Whenever I take my bike on the train I have found them very willing to offer advice on safely securing it in the correct place.

 

[WesternLancer]

My intention is to take this up very seriously with GWR, demand a full apology, and make it clear that I regard their actions as attempted theft of my luggage and that if I hadn't had the good luck of retrieving my bag in the nick of time, I would now be in the process of taking legal advice with a view to suing them for many thousands of pounds (ruination of several days of trip, plus the value of the stuff in the rucksack).

But thought I'd post here fiurst to see what people think.

As a general rule don't threaten them with things unless you are fully prepared to go thru with them - and I'm not sure how much this legal action would cost you but be prepared to 'put your money where your mouth is' if you threaten it.

I expect your ticket conditions have all sorts of clauses about the railway being within its rights to remove unattended luggage for security reasons.

But I would make a firm complaint, but drop the legal threats and 'outraged of tunbridge wells' tone in my view.

In hindsight it might have been better to ask another passenger near your bag to keep an eye on it for you whilst you secured your bike.

What would have happened if a theif had picked it up and walked off with it? This happens. They would have at least obtained a pricey lap top by the sounds of it.

Inadequate cycle storage is indeed a pain.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The intention was to only leave it for a few seconds. And when I left it, I had no serious reason to believe it would be left for longer than a few seconds. But it turned out the difficulty I had with the bike racks plus other passengers boarding meant I was unable to get back to it for longer.



What do you define as 'unattended'? I was a short distance away from my bag trying to attend to my bike. Just about every long distance train has luggage racks at the ends of the carriage where people put luggage and then sit often some distance away, thereby making those bags just as 'unattended' as mine was. I am very certain that my bag was no more 'unattended' than dozens of other bags in that carriage.

Was the bike rack in the same compartment as the seat where you left your bag? If someone standing by the bag called out 'is this anyone's bag?' would you have heard them while attending to your bike?

To my mind, if the answer to either of these is 'no' then you had left your bag unattended.

So I am another vote for it being you inconveniencing the railway and not vice versa. If you don't want the problem to happen in future, don't leave your bag unattended.

 

[Hadders]

While I understand your frustration I think you need to look at this from the other side.

Was the bike rack in the same compartment as the seat where you left your bag? If someone standing by the bag called out 'is this anyone's bag?' would you have heard them while attending to your bike?

To my mind, if the answer to either of these is 'no' then you had left your bag unattended.

So I am another vote for it being you inconveniencing the railway and not vice versa. If you don't want the problem to happen in future, don't leave your bag unattended.

I agree with this.

 

[LowLevel]

It's not attempted theft of your luggage.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree - don't leave your bag unattended. You entered the carriage, deposited a bag, and left. This is a recipe for getting your bag removed.

GWR were acting in a way they felt responsible and accusing the staff member of attempting to steal your bag seems both unfounded and vexatious. Of course they were not stealing your bag.

 

[Brissle Girl]

The other point which I don’t get is that passengers only board on one side of the train. So it would have been relatively easy to put your rucksack adjacent to the opposite door whilst you sorted out your bike, without the obstruction you say you were trying to avoid.

When I first read the story it seemed like you were reserving a seat with your rucksack, which again as the train got fuller may have led someone to ask whose it was if it had been left unattended for several minutes.

 

[Gloster]

What do you define as 'unattended'? I was a short distance away from my bag trying to attend to my bike. Just about every long distance train has luggage racks at the ends of the carriage where people put luggage and then sit often some distance away, thereby making those bags just as 'unattended' as mine was. I am very certain that my bag was no more 'unattended' than dozens of other bags in that carriage.

But not a short distance away that you saw the bag being removed or heard the member of staff asking whose bag it was, as they must surely have done. Did you mention to any of those sitting in adjacent seats that you were going to deal with your bike and would be back? A nervous passenger might wonder what you were doing.

 

[rs101]

If they're these stupid bike racks, I can understand why it took far longer than it should have done to get your bike in place - https://road.cc/content/news/267162-cycling-uk-slams-awful-cycle-storage-gwrs-high-speed-trains

Edited to add:-
Some discussion here - https://www.reddit.com/r/ukbike/comments/12odxz2/the_uselessness_of_gwr_cycle_spaces/

with this astounding quote:-
"The train manager, said he wasn't qualified to show me how to put the bike in properly.
I asked him why he'd need training to use something that is meant for public use. He replied again that he wasn't qualified and wizzed off, leaving me to sit on the floor near my bike, because he said I wasn't allowed lock it."

 

[kristiang85]

I think had you just mentioned to one of the nearby passengers "I'm just leaving my bag here whilst I sort my bike, in case anybody asks", then there wouldn't have been a problem.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Personally I don't buy all this "security risk" as the reason it was removed. If they honestly thought that and then moved it, that was incredibly reckless.

I actually think it was just good old-fashioned common sense. Passengers boarded, there's a rucksack on a seat, belonging to no one around. The assumption would be that someone got off and left in onboard by mistake. Staff came to put it in lost property and await a claimant.

Far more sensible than a reckless member of staff moving a perceived bomb and then stand waiting with it.

But I don't think any legal claim would get anywhere for removal and storage of lost property.

 

[transportphoto]

What do you define as 'unattended'? I was a short distance away from my bag trying to attend to my bike.

From the other side of the coin:

You got on a train, deposited a large rucksack on a seat (not the usual place for luggage, that’s a luggage rack), and all bystanders saw was you walk off again.

I’d be suspicious too, perhaps more so if I hadn’t clocked where you had gone (as it would appear is the case here).

Your luggage was initially deemed a security risk which prompted an escalation to staff.

Your luggage was assessed against the HOT principles and found to be not suspicious, removed as lost property and would have been processed as such.

They probably then tried some form of reconciliation - which you were too far away from to hear.

End of story.

Reserving seats with bags on a busy train is not the way to go - faffing around with a bike or not.

It’s not clear as to whether you were travelling with too much luggage - including your bike, and cycle panniers, you likely exceeded your contractual entitlement to take three pieces of luggage with you. I say it’s an entitlement, but there’s a good number of exceptions to this. (NRCoT: https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf)

HOT is used to determine whether unattended items are likely to be a security risk: Is it hidden? Is it obviously suspicious? Is it typical of the environment?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s not clear as to whether you were travelling with too much luggage - including your bike, and cycle panniers, you likely exceeded your contractual entitlement to take three pieces of luggage with you. I say it’s an entitlement, but there’s a good number of exceptions to this. (NRCoT: https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...3/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf)

I've never heard any suggestion that a bicycle would be considered a piece of luggage - it's a thing in its own right. It certainly doesn't meet the definition of one.

However, a pair of panniers once removed from it is certainly two.

 

[punxsutawny]

If there was a genuine suspicion about the unattended bag being a danger to the passengers, dare I say a member of staff shouldn't just pick it up and put it on a wagon? Seems unsafe!

Saying that you can't leave a bag in a train carriage for a few minutes seems to be saying you shouldn't go to the toilet, or the cafe car, or any other part of the train! There's no valid reason to suspect that the bag was suspicious, there's plenty of reasons for a bag to be left unattended during boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saying that you can't leave a bag in a train carriage for a few minutes seems to be saying you shouldn't go to the toilet, or the cafe car, or any other part of the train! There's no valid reason to suspect that the bag was suspicious, there's plenty of reasons for a bag to be left unattended during boarding.

I suspect one of the first things the staff would check would be whether the toilet in that coach was occupied (or if out of order, the next available one).

There's no buffet car on GWR.

 

[punxsutawny]

I suspect one of the first things the staff would check would be whether the toilet in that coach was occupied (or if out of order, the next available one).

There's no buffet car on GWR.

It was a general railway comment on the buffet car; just an example of where a passenger may be when they leave a bag at their seat for a few minutes.

 

[Titfield]

If there was a genuine suspicion about the unattended bag being a danger to the passengers, dare I say a member of staff shouldn't just pick it up and put it on a wagon? Seems unsafe!

Saying that you can't leave a bag in a train carriage for a few minutes seems to be saying you shouldn't go to the toilet, or the cafe car, or any other part of the train! There's no valid reason to suspect that the bag was suspicious, there's plenty of reasons for a bag to be left unattended during boarding.

But normally the on train staff call out "does anyone know whose bag this is" and invariably someone calls back 'I think they have just gone to the buffet / toilet etc'.

If they get no reply they wait and then call out again.

On train staff only remove a bag as a last resort when they have made considerable effort to locate the owner.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

But normally the on train staff call out "does anyone know whose bag this is" and invariably someone calls back 'I think they have just gone to the buffet / toilet etc'.

If they get no reply they wait and then call out again.

On train staff only remove a bag as a last resort when they have made considerable effort to locate the owner.

I would think that's possibly the issue: It doesn't look to me like anyone did make any significant effort to identify the owner. I was at the end of the passenger compartment by the doors/bike area, as I recall I'd left the rucksack about 4, maybe 5, airline rows of seats in (on the nearest unreserved seat I could find) so I'm pretty sure I would have been well within hearing distance of anyone shouting (although granted there was a lot of general hubbub with loads of people boarding and looking for their seats)

 

[rs101]

I've never heard any suggestion that a bicycle would be considered a piece of luggage - it's a thing in its own right. It certainly doesn't meet the definition of one.

However, a pair of panniers once removed from it is certainly two.

Indeed. If a bike qualifies as a piece of luggage under NRCoT, then the passenger could take it into the passenger compartment, provided it doesn't obstruct

The NRCoT specifically mentions that fully folding bicycles may be counted as luggage, so that seems to imply a non-folding bicycle can't be.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Saying that you can't leave a bag in a train carriage for a few minutes seems to be saying you shouldn't go to the toilet, or the cafe car, or any other part of the train! There's no valid reason to suspect that the bag was suspicious, there's plenty of reasons for a bag to be left unattended during boarding.

Agreed. Another example of a reason for leaving your bag for a few minutes is that, if your bag is large, it's just not going to be practical to carry it with you while you're wandering up and down the carriage looking for a seat at the same time as everyone else is doing the same thing. For that reason there have been many times when I've boarded a long-distance train in London and immediately put my suitcase/etc. in the nearest luggage rack so I can go unencumbered to search for somewhere to sit. Then once I've found a seat and once everyone else has sat down, so the aisle is free, I'll return to my suitcase so I can move it near to where I'm sitting. On occasions that's been the only practical thing to do - and it would be absurd if that lead to staff removing the luggage.

 

[Davester50]

Sounds like a learning experience for you. Speak to people sitting nearby your large rucksack before slacking off and leaving it unattended.
Well done to the staff for not leaving a security risk on the train.

 

[lachlan]

I would stick the bag in a luggage rack next time and then it probably wouldn't get touched. Or just dumped it on the floor beside the bike compartment to keep it in view against the train door, as suggested above.

The bike compartments do look really awkward whenever I see people using them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Leaving a coat or bag on a seat whilst you go to the toilet or the (usually static) snacks trolley is incredibly common, so much so I'm somewhat amazed people are having a go at the OP for it. The only thing I can think of is as it was a terminus, did they think that bag had been left by someone from the previous journey that train had made - but I'd have thought they would have cleared the train as empty well before letting passengers on it for the next service it made up!

 

[RPI]

Also consider that if this was at Paddington, the train may well have arrived in from somewhere, if staff asked who's the bag was, and no one claimed it then the staff may well suspect that someone on the inbound service has left it there, which would then be lost property.

 

[6Gman]

Leaving a coat or bag on a seat whilst you go to the toilet or the (usually static) snacks trolley is incredibly common, so much so I'm somewhat amazed people are having a go at the OP for it. The only thing I can think of is as it was a terminus, did they think that bag had been left by someone from the previous journey that train had made - but I'd have thought they would have cleared the train as empty well before letting passengers on it for the next service it made up!

Yes, during the journey. To do so while the train is standing at its originating station is, I would suggest, more unusual.