Bad news for Pensioners, Commuters etc in South Yorkshire

[34D]

How might we change ENCTS?

My own proposal would be for:

Within ten route miles of home postcode (done as like N16, LS1, M8, etc) which could involve crossing into another county, or (if longer) to the nearest market town/supermarket: free bus travel at off peak times.

Within home county/council area: 50% off bus fares at all times.

Across England: 33% off bus, rail and tram fares off peak.

All the above to apply to elderly (age 62+), eligible disabled, and jobseekers

Discuss and pull to pieces

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At this stage in the debate, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those members who have posted and are under the eligibility age to receive the age-related ENCTS pass have come out in favour of lessening the usage terms of this pass ?

A pity that a poll was not incorporated with this particular thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have the Labour Party made any recent pronouncements about how they will deal with the matter of the ENCTS passes, as it was under them that this was introduced ?

I see that no-one chose to make a response to this posting.

 

[34D]

Paul, I believe I'm right in saying we have quite a few disabled ENCTS holders here

 

[RogerB]

How might we change ENCTS?

My own proposal would be for:

Within ten route miles of home postcode (done as like N16, LS1, M8, etc) which could involve crossing into another county, or (if longer) to the nearest market town/supermarket: free bus travel at off peak times.

Within home county/council area: 50% off bus fares at all times.

Across England: 33% off bus, rail and tram fares off peak.

All the above to apply to elderly (age 62+), eligible disabled, and jobseekers

Discuss and pull to pieces

Sounds like too much bother for the train guards & bus drivers.

My proposal would be to keep it as it was before the recent change and get all public transport on an Oyster card type system (OysterMax?) then journeys could be analized and the card billed accordingly, taking into account passes and travel cards held by the customer.

The downside? - another government IT system :roll:

 

[johnnychips]

Originally Posted by Paul Sidorczuk
Have the Labour Party made any recent pronouncements about how they will deal with the matter of the ENCTS passes, as it was under them that this was introduced ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-universal-benefits-like-free-bus-passes.html

Certainly an ambivalent response but that was in 2012. I think, considering pensioners are the demographic group most likely to vote, none of the main parties would dare to suggest it in the run up to an election.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...-universal-benefits-like-free-bus-passes.html

Certainly an ambivalent response but that was in 2012. I think, considering pensioners are the demographic group most likely to vote, none of the main parties would dare to suggest it in the run up to an election.

My grateful thanks to your good self for this link. Howsoever, utterances in 2012 when the General Election was some time off to what is then said in 2014 and 2015 by members of the Shadow Cabinet at party and trades union conferences on the matter of the Labour Party's view on this matter will surely be tempered by the thoughts of how voting patterns could be affected, as was said in earlier postings on this thread.

Of course. matters such as this, interesting as they are, will have absolutely no effect whatsoever upon members of this forum, as all such debate on this website will have no effect whatsoever upon who will form the next Government of this country.

 

[Dee54321]

As a disabled user, it's fantastic that the pass has been reinstated as before. Disabled people suffer enough hardships in life, to be honest national free travel on all transport wouldn't be unfair, but I'm aware this will never happen. I'm quite content I can use any bus free in the country, free trains in South Yorkshire and to West Yorkshire. Anyone who thinks this is unfair, is probably just jealous, trust me you have nothing to be jealous about.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What London Underground need to do is take-on staff who are prepared to work for less. £20,000-£25,000 per year is still a very healthy income. Those who threaten strike action should be told (very firmly) to find another job if they don't like what they're offered in a pay rise

Thanks for your opinion, it's really great to hear it, but what relevance does it have to the topic of concessionary bus fares?

I think the TfL Marketing Manager is overpaid by about £300,000 a year, but that's not really relevant either is it?

Anyone who thinks this is unfair, is probably just jealous, trust me you have nothing to be jealous about.

I'm not jealous of the fact that pensioners and disabled people can get free travel.

I do, however, resent the fact that I'm having to pay through the nose to fund it, both in high Council Tax and in high Travelcard costs. I've no problem with the scheme encouraging older people to leave the car at home when they go to the shops. I do have a problem with the nationwide aspect of the scheme meaning that people are using it for journeys they'd have happily paid for ten years ago. At the most basic level, I don't see why I should be paying for someone else to have a free day out at the seaside. The chances of ENCTS still existing when I get to retire in forty years are pretty much nil.

Pensioners should be pretty angry too, if they think about it. Unless they're poor enough to get council tax benefit, they're paying through the nose for the ENCTS too.

The old system of a significant discount or a flat fare worked well. We should go back to it. But it won't change any time soon. Labour won't want to be seen as abandoning something they introduced and the Conservatives' average voter age is now about 187 so they won't change it either.

 

[Deerfold]

A tube driver's salary is excessive and to go on strike for more is down right greedy. What London Underground need to do is take-on staff who are prepared to work for less. £20,000-£25,000 per year is still a very healthy income.

You don't live in or near London do you?

£20-25k a year is not a lot to earn to afford to live in London.

The median salary in London is £30,460.

You'd end up attracting very few decent candidates as they would be able to earn more in less taxing jobs.

I'd rather have talented people driving my trains.

The old system of a significant discount or a flat fare worked well. We should go back to it. But it won't change any time soon. Labour won't want to be seen as abandoning something they introduced and the Conservatives' average voter age is now about 187 so they won't change it either.

I don't disagree that the current scheme is poorly implemented and funded but many areas did not have any discount for older people prior to the ENTCS and its immediate precursor which provided for free local travel.

 

[Bill Stanier]

I don't suppose it'll be too long before the job of Tube driver goes the way of draughtsman and ploughman. Many urban transport systems in Europe are driverless, and I don't mean in the slow jerky way of our dear old DLR; they are fast and smooth.

Tube drivers are pricing and striking their way out of a job. Maybe they are just reaping all they can out of it before it vanishes?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't disagree that the current scheme is poorly implemented and funded but many areas did not have any discount for older people prior to the ENTCS and its immediate precursor which provided for free local travel.

I stand corrected if that's the case, though everywhere I've lived (both PTE and non-PTE) has had varying degrees of discount.

I'm not saying that pensioners should have to pay full price, but I equally don't see why taxpayer money should be spent on free travel for those who can afford to pay. There are plenty of other things the money can be spent on, regardless of whether the money comes from local sources or national ones.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't suppose it'll be too long before the job of Tube driver goes the way of draughtsman and ploughman. Many urban transport systems in Europe are driverless, and I don't mean in the slow jerky way of our dear old DLR; they are fast and smooth.

Tube drivers are pricing and striking their way out of a job. Maybe they are just reaping all they can out of it before it vanishes?

The European systems are designed to be driverless though - ours really need someone on board to help when an evacuation is required, if nothing else.

( psst - http://www.indeed.co.uk/Draughtsman-jobs )

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm not saying that pensioners should have to pay full price, but I equally don't see why taxpayer money should be spent on free travel for those who can afford to pay. There are plenty of other things the money can be spent on, regardless of whether the money comes from local sources or national ones.

Perhaps you could write to Gordon Brown and ask him to inform you of the reasons why he thought it was a good idea to introduce the ENCTS scheme when he did.

 

[radamfi]

Before 1986, fares in many areas (especially PTE areas) were kept low, and even in areas without a particularly low fares policy, fares were still subsidised to an extent. So concessionary fares were not such a big deal, and even where offered, it was a discount of a low fare anyway.

Now fares cannot be subsidised by law, so regular fares are extortionate, so without a substantial discount, fares would take up a big chunk of poorer pensioners' income. Most working adults hardly use buses so aren't affected so much. The people who really suffer now are the unemployed, the low paid and young people over 16, who are expected to pay unsubsidised fares.

The real solution is to have a properly funded and properly planned public transport system like everywhere else in Europe.

The European systems are designed to be driverless though - ours really need someone on board to help when an evacuation is required, if nothing else.

( psst - http://www.indeed.co.uk/Draughtsman-jobs )

Although Paris have converted a line to driverless operation.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not jealous of the fact that pensioners and disabled people can get free travel.

I do, however, resent the fact that I'm having to pay through the nose to fund it, both in high Council Tax and in high Travelcard costs. I've no problem with the scheme encouraging older people to leave the car at home when they go to the shops. I do have a problem with the nationwide aspect of the scheme meaning that people are using it for journeys they'd have happily paid for ten years ago. At the most basic level, I don't see why I should be paying for someone else to have a free day out at the seaside. The chances of ENCTS still existing when I get to retire in forty years are pretty much nil.

Pensioners should be pretty angry too, if they think about it. Unless they're poor enough to get council tax benefit, they're paying through the nose for the ENCTS too.

The old system of a significant discount or a flat fare worked well. We should go back to it. But it won't change any time soon. Labour won't want to be seen as abandoning something they introduced and the Conservatives' average voter age is now about 187 so they won't change it either.

I could get fed up with others having numerous children that I then have to help pay towards their schooling. I could get fed up with the country fighting wars that I don't always agree with. I could get fed up with drunks and hooligans wrecking our town centres on Friday and Saturday nights because alcohol is too cheap.

However, we live in a democracy. Inevitably there will be some things that we like and others that we don't like. You have every right to resent others 'having a free day out at the seaside' - if that was what all pass holders did all of the time then I'd agree, but it isn't. You're just using the 1% as a (poor) example of where a few take advantage.

It's a democracy, abide by the rules - and vote in accordance with your beliefs in 2015.

Robert

 

[Dee54321]

I doubt anyone takes free rides to the seaside, as doing this via bus would be ridiculous. That's what various rail cards are for. Some people need to get a grip and stop being so bitter.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I doubt anyone takes free rides to the seaside, as doing this via bus would be ridiculous. That's what various rail cards are for. Some people need to get a grip and stop being so bitter.

Noting that this thread concerns South Yorkshire, can someone say what bus services from there to seaside resorts currently run that accept the ENCTS pass ?

 

[ECML180]

For the more adventurous concession, theres always the option of Doncaster>Isle of Axholme>Scunthorpe>Various Little Villages>Cleethorpes, but I think there are quicker and easier routes.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Perhaps you could write to Gordon Brown and ask him to inform you of the reasons why he thought it was a good idea to introduce the ENCTS scheme when he did.

Electoral bribery, nothing more and nothing less.

I'd be more interested in finding out why he didn't bother to fund it properly.

I doubt anyone takes free rides to the seaside, as doing this via bus would be ridiculous. That's what various rail cards are for. Some people need to get a grip and stop being so bitter.

That depends on where you live and where you go on holiday. The pass is valid anywhere, not just your home town. The fact that the summer buses to Whitby, Scarborough and Bridlington are packed to the rafters with passholders should tell you something. Yorkshire Coastliner buses from Leeds and York are rammed with passholders in the summer, so is the Arriva bus from Middlesbrough; why would someone want to pay 66% of a rail fare when they can pay 0% of a bus fare?

Bitter? Believing it is a spectacular waste of money, and damaging to the people it is most supposed to help, is not bitter. As many people in North Yorkshire and Cumbria will tell you, they now have a free bus pass but no buses to use it on because the council can no longer subsidise the routes. SYPTE, to bring it slightly back, have had to cut funding on "community transport", as well as telling the community operators to increase fares. So the most vulnerable people, the ones who need dial-a-ride because they can't use service buses, are losing out big time. All because of the complete Horlicks that is ENCTS funding.

You're just using the 1% as a (poor) example of where a few take advantage.

They're not "taking advantage", they're using the passes exactly as intended and designed. I've no issue with people using the passes, and don't blame them or think they're wrong for using the passes. My view is that the passes shouldn't exist, not that the passholders are doing anything wrong.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The fact that the summer buses to Whitby, Scarborough and Bridlington are packed to the rafters with passholders should tell you something. Yorkshire Coastliner buses from Leeds and York are rammed with passholders in the summer, so is the Arriva bus from Middlesbrough; why would someone want to pay 66% of a rail fare when they can pay 0% of a bus fare?

This is news that I was unaware of, as I had been notified some time ago that the Yorkshire Coastliner services had changed their service definition which precluded the use of ENCTS passes on those service to allow free bus travel to the holders of such passes.

When did this stricture then cease and the use of ENCTS passes being allowed once again ?

 

[radamfi]

This is news that I was unaware of, as I had been notified some time ago that the Yorkshire Coastliner services had changed their service definition which precluded the use of ENCTS passes on those service to allow free bus travel to the holders of such passes.

When did this stricture then cease and the use of ENCTS passes being allowed once again ?

I thought that was only on certain journeys where they proposed removing intermediate stops to enable the route to be classed as an express service. Pass holders just had to use different journeys. But did that actually happen?

A quick look at the timetable shows that there are stopping buses from Leeds to Whitby and Scarborough at 0940 and 1040 respectively.

 

[Deerfold]

I thought that was only on certain journeys where they proposed removing intermediate stops to enable the route to be classed as an express service. Pass holders just had to use different journeys. But did that actually happen?

A quick look at the timetable shows that there are stopping buses from Leeds to Whitby and Scarborough at 0940 and 1040 respectively.

This was proposed but did not happen.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Electoral bribery, nothing more and nothing less.

I'd be more interested in finding out why he didn't bother to fund it properly.

Gordon Brown funding stuff properly? You're talking about the moron who left us with the biggest post war debt and deficit ever! Expecting Gordon Brown to 'fund stuff properly' is like expecting Ghengis Khan to be a kind hearted gent who'll ensure you're on his christmas card list!

 

[tbtc]

At this stage in the debate, it would be interesting to know what percentage of those members who have posted and are under the eligibility age to receive the age-related ENCTS pass have come out in favour of lessening the usage terms of this pass ?

A pity that a poll was not incorporated with this particular thread

1. I think that two more relevant questions for this thread are:
2. How many of the people complaining about this cut are council tax payers in South Yorkshire?
   
3. How do people complaining about this cut think that South Yorkshire should continue to fund free train travel for all pensioners (including to Leeds/ Huddersfield etc), at a time when we are seeing libraries closed, fire stations closed, leisure centres closed, subsidised bus services withdrawn etc - where is the spare cash in SY for our pensioners to have a day trip to Leeds?

As a disabled user, it's fantastic that the pass has been reinstated as before. Disabled people suffer enough hardships in life, to be honest national free travel on all transport wouldn't be unfair, but I'm aware this will never happen. I'm quite content I can use any bus free in the country, free trains in South Yorkshire and to West Yorkshire. Anyone who thinks this is unfair, is probably just jealous, trust me you have nothing to be jealous about.

Some people need to get a grip and stop being so bitter

The "ah, you're just jealous" argument about anyone who thinks that free train travel for all pensioners in South Yorkshire (plus services to West Yorkshire) seems a strange one - I just think that it's an unfunded scheme that's unsustainable and has caused a number of other bus services to be withdrawn (or staff made redundant) as the PTE struggle to pay for all of these "free" journeys.

If we can't have an opinion on something being a poor use of public money without someone throwing the "bitter" argument around then there's no point in trying to have a sensible discussion.

Before 1986, fares in many areas (especially PTE areas) were kept low, and even in areas without a particularly low fares policy, fares were still subsidised to an extent. So concessionary fares were not such a big deal, and even where offered, it was a discount of a low fare anyway.

Now fares cannot be subsidised by law, so regular fares are extortionate, so without a substantial discount, fares would take up a big chunk of poorer pensioners' income. Most working adults hardly use buses so aren't affected so much. The people who really suffer now are the unemployed, the low paid and young people over 16, who are expected to pay unsubsidised fares

I'd also comment that children in South Yorkshire have suffered under the new system - with the child fare going up from around 35p/40p (which it was in the days when pensioners paid a similar amount) to 70p and 80p - in some fairly big jumps (ten pence a year in recent years, which is proportionately a big amount).

Obviously most pensioners getting on for nothing have little concept of the "normal" cost of bus travel for the journeys that they are making, but we have moved from a system where kids pay around a quarter of the adult fare to around half the adult fare - which means that under sixteens are paying a larger share of the "burden".

It's a democracy, abide by the rules - and vote in accordance with your beliefs in 2015.

Nobody is saying that pensioners aren't abiding by the rules, just that the "rules" seem very generous and are not properly funded.

I doubt anyone takes free rides to the seaside, as doing this via bus would be ridiculous

Pensioners do though - look at the examples quoted in this thread of operators running to seaside towns unable to cope with OAP demand - having to put on larger vehicles to cope despite the fact that they aren't getting enough money from councils to cover those costs (imagine the operators terrified of "PENSIONER LEFT STRANDED AS PACKED BUS COULDN'T BRING HER BACK FROM SEASIDE" headlines.

In fact, one of the big problems with the current system is that it creates a disproportionate cost upon operators and councils in "pensioner friendly" areas - rather than being properly funded.

If North Yorkshire have to fund all of the pensioners coming there for a free ride around then they are going to have to make cuts elsewhere. There's no unlimited pot of money here.

 

[Bill Stanier]

The bus company doesn't have to run the service. If all those pensioners rushing to the seaside make a service unviable, then they can simply withdraw it. That they don't, and indeed put on bigger buses to cope with demand, indicates it's not all bad news for those companies. They are in business to make money, after all!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I had been notified some time ago that the Yorkshire Coastliner services had changed their service definition which precluded the use of ENCTS passes on those service to allow free bus travel to the holders of such passes.

Yorkshire Coastliner buses are still service buses, and ENCTS is valid on them.

http://www.yorkbus.co.uk/fares/Coastliner/SeniorCitizens_6.html

The fact that Yorkshire Coastliner had to contemplate changing the service definition shows just what a commercial disaster ENCTS really is.

 

[neilmc]

But how much does the operator actually receive, or is that some kind of commercial secret? I would have thought, from an operator's point of view, that it was better to have a bus full of seventy pensioners paying nothing and the operator receiving whatever the council see fit to distribute than a bus full of fresh air with maybe a dozen people paying a fare.

I used to live in Leeds before the free pass furore and never saw the East Coast buses very full as most people would prefer to go by train given a choice, and pensioners could already have reduced railfares with a railcard whereas a lot of the shire counties through which such services run gave their own pensioners next to nothing (usually tokens) and pensioners from outside the area nothing at all. Not everywhere was as pensioner-friendly as South and West Yorkshire!

We simply don't know how many journeys would actually be made and paid for if pensioners had to pay some or all of the fare but my observation is that overall daytime bus service frequencies have held up well over the last couple of decades whereas evening services, when pensioners are off to bed with their Horlicks, have plummeted and there aren't anything like the number of peak period extras for workers that there used to be. In other words, if I want to go to town mid-afternoon I might have to sit next to a granny or two but it's still every five or ten minutes so as a farepayer I gain, and there's still reasonable employment within the bus industry.

What really pees me off is that I've reached the age of 60 and can buy a senior citizens' railcard but now I don't get a free bus pass for another six years. Happy now, are you?
So I'll have to go to Blackpool on the train and pay
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The Yorkshire Coastliner aborted plan would have been a disaster for the intermediate villages as the plan was to make the service a non-stop service for a long stretch to get round the legislation. Brinksmanship with the council to extract more money.

 

[34D]

This was proposed but did not happen.

Transdev agreed extra money from NYCC

 

[Flying Snail]

The bus company doesn't have to run the service. If all those pensioners rushing to the seaside make a service unviable, then they can simply withdraw it. That they don't, and indeed put on bigger buses to cope with demand, indicates it's not all bad news for those companies. They are in business to make money, after all!

There aren't a limitless amount of viable routes, for an operator to abandon a route most likely means they will not be able to replace it with another of the same scale. This will mean they have to downsize their operation, lay off staff and perhaps even close down entirely.

The large multi-nationals are perfectly happy doing this, if operations are not commercially viable they just close down, sell up, lay everyone off and concentrate on their more profitable operations. Just look at Arriva completely abandoning their West Wales operation or the raft of operations First have ditched in the last 2 years.

Smaller local operators do not hve that luxury and as a result many have gone to the wall, in recent times the added cost of the shortfall in revenue from ENCTS has been quoted by many as being a significant factor in their services becoming unviable.

Mr Shipp says EYMS, along with hundreds of other public transport firms across the country, is being squeezed by the combined effects of cuts in fuel duty reimbursements and the amount it receives from councils for carrying concessionary fares.


He said: "The English National Concession Travel Scheme (ENCTS) is the worst thing that has happened in the bus industry, certainly in the 52 years I have been involved.


Read more: http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/try-...tory-20917723-detail/story.html#ixzz34T3yxRPL

Read more at http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/try-...0917723-detail/story.html#3rVAxhSbvPjUcoqC.99

He said the services had become commercially unviable because of a 12 per cent hike in fuel prices in the past year, the Government cutting the level of reimbursement for concessionary fares, and the Government move to cut a grant that provides a rebate on fuel duty for bus operators by a fifth

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/9465815.Cancelled_bus_services_hit_pensioners____wallets/

Transport analyst Chris Cheek, of TAS consultancy, has said 1,500 jobs could disappear from the Welsh bus industry, which employs around 5,000.

He has said the reduced funding could see adult fares go up, causing passenger miles to fall, services to become unprofitable and leaving the industry in a cycle of decline it last faced in the 1970s.

Mr Cheek believes even Wales’s larger bus firms could go into the red because the 23% cut would equal about 7.3% of their yearly income.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/pensioners-left-isolated-lonely-bus-6391600

North Yorkshire County Council is grappling with where to cut subsidised bus services as it reduces its bus subsidy by 25 per cent, equivalent to £1.1 million a year, following Government cuts.

It spends £4.4m a year subsidising 20 per cent of non-commercially viable journeys. North Yorkshire is particularly affected with a population over a large area and a large elderly population.

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/10893587.Pensioners_offer_to____subsidise____rural_bus_services/

Elsewhere in North Yorkshire, the recent news of the cherished Pennine Motor Company going out of business after 88 years of serving the community was terrible, not just for the local residents affected but for the wider bus industry, especially smaller operators. The reason cited by company secretary Maurice Simpson was because North Yorkshire County Council has cut its reimbursement for concessionary travel by a fifth. This leaves smaller companies that operate in predominantly rural areas seriously out of pocket as a large proportion of their passengers are pensioners with bus passes. The chronic underfunding of the concessionary pass scheme from Central Government has meant significant cuts to buses across England and Wales with the worst of the cuts hitting rural areas hardest.

http://www.bettertransport.org.uk/blogs/bus/north-yorkshire-buses

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yorkshire Coastliner buses are still service buses, and ENCTS is valid on them.

http://www.yorkbus.co.uk/fares/Coastliner/SeniorCitizens_6.html

The fact that Yorkshire Coastliner had to contemplate changing the service definition shows just what a commercial disaster ENCTS really is.

Looking at this link that you submitted, it appears that TransDev in the script to view look like they are actually telling the ENCTS pass holders to come and use these services in the times of validity.

My most grateful thanks to all who updated me with the information that said what I was told some time ago did not actually take place. My recovery from the stroke that afflicted me in July 2012 which really was doing very well received a check when I suffered a mini-stroke seven months ago from which I am slowly recovering. Howsoever, certain matters see me somewhat out of date as a result of that matter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Yorkshire Coastliner aborted plan would have been a disaster for the intermediate villages as the plan was to make the service a non-stop service for a long stretch to get round the legislation. Brinksmanship with the council to extract more money.

That matter of the intermediate villages on the route to which you allude was a matter that really worried me when I first heard of the original proposal.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How do people complaining about this cut think that South Yorkshire should continue to fund free train travel for all pensioners (including to Leeds/ Huddersfield etc), at a time when we are seeing libraries closed, fire stations closed, leisure centres closed, subsidised bus services withdrawn etc - where is the spare cash in SY for our pensioners to have a day trip to Leeds?

Since the free rail travel for South Yorkshire-issued ENCTS pass-holders that you make reference to in the quote above is most certainly NOT a matter that is covered by the ENCTS entitlements, there is no obligation whatsoever for South Yorkshire to offer such a facility to these pass-holders. If the relevant authorities do offer this as an "extra-add-on" in the full knowledge that the funding for the other services that you mention will either be terminated or severely cut-back, then the electorate will be made aware of this at times of local elections and can make their decision to make their feelings known.