Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure

[Failed Unit]

What happens when a DOO train stops at an unstaffed station? Or is this where the operator washes their hands and says "you didn't plan your urgent appointment 24hrs in advance, so tough"


Have you ever been to Earlestown?


Some of us did make that point earlier.

I am sure they exist, but do many unstaffed stations in DOO land actually have access to all platforms? Alexanda Palace is an example where it is not possible for a wheelchair user to use it. But are there others in DOO land where it is possible. Most of the ones I can think of normally have a bridge between the platforms.

 

[TUC]

Hard to say without all the facts, if the station staff were very busy, having to wait 10-15 minutes doesn't seem unreasonable.

How do you explain the failure to communicate a delay though? Surrly that is unreasonable?

 

[Horizon22]

How do you explain the failure to communicate a delay though? Surrly that is unreasonable?

How do you communicate the delay though because if you were communicating the delay face-to-face, you'd be assisting them off the train!

It would have to be through the app/digital means, which means someone being actively aware there's a passenger requiring assistance at the station but for a certain reason can't be met immediately. That doesn't protect against miscommunications/forgotten assistance.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Why would they need to be railway staff? Could third-party contractors not be used instead? I've certainly seen security guards deploying wheelchair ramps in the past, employed by an agency, not directly by the railway.

I'm sure they could, but not sure anyone in the union(s) would be best pleased and I don't think that would solve the quality/communication issues either.

Why? Virtually ALL wheelchair assistance and others at airports and especially US airports use 3rd party contractors. Why should Great British Railways unions think they are any different?

 

[Horizon22]

Why? Virtually ALL wheelchair assistance and others at airports and especially US airports use 3rd party contractors. Why should Great British Railways unions think they are any different?

My angle is mainly on the quality of the staff used as they tend to be trained to the bare minimum, paid close to minimum wage and I don't think would be a quality improvement. As I said they could be used, but there may be some friction.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

My angle is mainly on the quality of the staff used as they tend to be trained to the bare minimum, paid close to minimum wage and I don't think would be a quality improvement. As I said they could be used, but there may be some friction.

Fair point.

 

[Yorkshireguy]

Whilst level boarding should be the future standard, the present situation is that the system of communication (whether through an app, in-person or otherwise, between both staff and the passenger), which should have worked, failed, and not for the first time.

There will be an “investigation” taking place, but what form does this take and how will improvement be ensured? Aviation notably has a constructive approach to investigating critical safety issues which avoids unnecessary blame and instead seeks root causes and solutions. It’s notable that some in the industry earlier in this thread felt attacked at the notion that something could go wrong, seemingly since they felt blamed despite trying their best. Improvement should be the focus, not going on the defense or attack. What is the railway’s culture and approach to this?

 

[Horizon22]

There will be an “investigation” taking place, but what form does this take and how will improvement be ensured? Aviation notably has a constructive approach to investigating critical safety issues which avoids unnecessary blame and instead seeks root causes and solutions. It’s notable that some in the industry earlier in this thread felt attacked at the notion that something could go wrong, seemingly since they felt blamed despite trying their best. Improvement should be the focus, not going on the defense or attack. What is the railway’s culture and approach to this?

Exactly the same thing happens in railway investigation. This is just an enthusiast forum where a select few are taking it personally for reasons that are...personal to them.

 

[Megafuss]

What happens when a DOO train stops at an unstaffed station? Or is this where the operator washes their hands and says "you didn't plan your urgent appointment 24hrs in advance, so tough"


Have you ever been to Earlestown?


Some of us did make that point earlier.

Reading the Southern website regarding accessibility, they reckon 75% of disabled passengers don't book in advance.

You have to go looking for it, but if a wheelchair users boards at an unstaffed station, it is still incumbent on the customer to contact control via the emergency help point..... At which point either a member of staff from another station will help with a ramp, or an accessible taxi will be booked.

I assume that means in reality a taxi will be booked unless you arrive at least an hour before your train!

 

[TUC]

Reading the Southern website regarding accessibility, they reckon 75% of disabled passengers don't book in advance.

You have to go looking for it, but if a wheelchair users boards at an unstaffed station, it is still incumbent on the customer to contact control via the emergency help point..... At which point either a member of staff from another station will help with a ramp, or an accessible taxi will be booked.

I assume that means in reality a taxi will be booked unless you arrive at least an hour before your train!

I don't think most disabled people would assume unbooked assistance would be available at an unstaffed station.

How do you communicate the delay though because if you were communicating the delay face-to-face, you'd be assisting them off the train!

It would have to be through the app/digital means, which means someone being actively aware there's a passenger requiring assistance at the station but for a certain reason can't be met immediately. That doesn't protect against miscommunications/forgotten assistance.

Though the staff member meant to be providing assistance radioing to ask any staff near the train to let the passenger know there has been a delay.

 

[Krokodil]

Why? Virtually ALL wheelchair assistance and others at airports and especially US airports use 3rd party contractors. Why should Great British Railways unions think they are any different?

I don't think that airports represent a gold standard here. Plenty of stories of failed assists.

I don't think most disabled people would assume unbooked assistance would be available at an unstaffed station.

It's expected where I am. But of course all trains have guards so the passengers are used to it.

 

[father_jack]

Something for another thread that I will start- the person (we are all equal) who was unfortunate enough to have what happened happen- do they go down the X/Twitter wormhole and fight their "level boarding" corner when the "driverless trains" possee start up ? Level boarding versus driverless trains. Both never happening but I'd be way more in favour of the former rather than the latter......

Level boarding versus driverless trains

Both a pipe dream- but one is way more deserving/realistic/achievable/moral than the other. But the other will always get more newspaper column or Internet bandwidth wastage....... Sad really. Any opinions ?

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Towers]

Why? Virtually ALL wheelchair assistance and others at airports and especially US airports use 3rd party contractors. Why should Great British Railways unions think they are any different?

I really don’t think we want to be basing any British employment setup, unions or otherwise, on the appalling US system!

 

[HSTEd]

Why would they need to be railway staff? Could third-party contractors not be used instead? I've certainly seen security guards deploying wheelchair ramps in the past, employed by an agency, not directly by the railway.

If you attempted that on a large scale you would risk trouble if the Unions concluded you were attempting to use these new staff to replace unionised railway staff.

And agency staff may get paid less but you will expect to pay more management costs to allow the agency to make its cut!

 

[norbitonflyer]

. It's a turn up and go railway, so she should be allowed to turn up and go as well.

Increasingly not, if LNER get their way. Indeed, the baroness was fortunate to be allowed to use the next train after missing the one she was booked on.

 

[Failed Unit]

Increasingly not, if LNER get their way. Indeed, the baroness was fortunate to be allowed to use the next train after missing the one she was booked on.

To be fair LNER don't discriminate here, they don't want anyone turning up without booking....

 

[danbarjon]

Not always the case. My wife has turned up without booking at Halifax on several occasions and the staff have been unfailingly helpful.

I did say some staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Reading the Southern website regarding accessibility, they reckon 75% of disabled passengers don't book in advance.

You have to go looking for it, but if a wheelchair users boards at an unstaffed station, it is still incumbent on the customer to contact control via the emergency help point..... At which point either a member of staff from another station will help with a ramp, or an accessible taxi will be booked.

I assume that means in reality a taxi will be booked unless you arrive at least an hour before your train!

Can the OBS not do ramps? If not, what's the point of them apart from avoiding strikes?

 

[Horizon22]

Can the OBS not do ramps? If not, what's the point of them apart from avoiding strikes?

Yes they can. A lot of Southern is of course still pure DOO though and there are certain circumstances (e.g. severe disruption) where services booked to have an OBS can run without.

 

[800001]

Why would they need to be railway staff? Could third-party contractors not be used instead? I've certainly seen security guards deploying wheelchair ramps in the past, employed by an agency, not directly by the railway.



Not much use on the many routes that are DOO...

Then it becomes the driver! Simple really?

 

[12LDA28C]

Then it becomes the driver! Simple really?

And are drivers trained in using wheelchair ramps at all or even any TOCs?

 

[Failed Unit]

And are drivers trained in using wheelchair ramps at all or even any TOCs?

I don’t know if they are trained, but I have certainly seen them come out to help on EMR.

 

[Towers]

Drivers do not, and almost certainly will not at any point, be routinely required to deploy wheelchair ramps!

 

[800001]

And are drivers trained in using wheelchair ramps at all or even any TOCs?

Well they bloody should be if no guard around!

Drivers do not, and almost certainly will not at any point, be routinely required to deploy wheelchair ramps!

They should be if there is no guard around, for god sake nearly all of London have no guard and loads of stations have no staff, how on earth are people who require assistance meant to travel!??

 

[Towers]

Well they bloody should be if no guard around!


They should be if there is no guard around, for god sake nearly all of London have no guard and loads of stations have no staff, how on earth are people who require assistance meant to travel!??

TOCs use mobile assistance teams to cover pre-booked assistance requests on DOO routes. Sadly, if it isn’t pre-booked there’s no guarantee of travelling. This is perhaps one reason that ‘pure DOO’ might have had its day in the modern age, but that’s for another discussion!

As for drivers, various reasons why they aren’t expected to deal with ramps, not least delays and the potential for task overload leading to incidents. It won’t happen!

 

[Wolfie]

Increasingly not, if LNER get their way. Indeed, the baroness was fortunate to be allowed to use the next train after missing the one she was booked on.

Hmm.... I am sure that the LNER CE would enjoy his subsequent appearance in front of a Lords Committee.....

Drivers do not, and almost certainly will not at any point, be routinely required to deploy wheelchair ramps!

If a train is DOO and runs through unstaffed stations then they either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act.

 

[800001]

Increasingly not, if LNER get their way. Indeed, the baroness was fortunate to be allowed to use the next train after missing the one she was booked on.

How do you know she was fortunate?
How do you know she didn’t miss it due to the state of the railway with all the delays and cancellations?

Loads of people on here seem to think it is her fault all this happened!

She could have been delayed on previous train?
She could of had an open ticket allowing travel on any train!

 

[8J]

Hmm.... I am sure that the LNER CE would enjoy his subsequent appearance in front of a Lords Committee.....


If a train is DOO and runs through unstaffed stations then they either should be or their employer should be prosecuted for breach of the Equality Act.

Nonsense about prosecuting the driver individually. Drivers are not trained or insured to use wheelchair ramps and any driver that uses the ramp should be disciplined for doing so.

This is a falling of the company's that run DOO services without staff at stations to assist.

How do you know she was fortunate?
How do you know she didn’t miss it due to the state of the railway with all the delays and cancellations?

Loads of people on here seem to think it is her fault all this happened!

She could have been delayed on previous train?
She could of had an open ticket allowing travel on any train!

Absolutely. This is a failing that LNER really need to address. The attitudes that a sadly decent sized number of railway staff have to wheelchair users is unacceptable. This is coming from an experienced member of staff that sees this on a daily basis and does challenge it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nonsense about prosecuting the driver individually. Drivers are not trained or insured to use wheelchair ramps and any driver that uses the ramp should be disciplined for doing so.

This is a falling of the company's that run DOO services without staff at stations to assist.

While it might not be sensible for them to do so on an ongoing basis due to the delays it would cause, drivers *absolutely should* be trained in ramp use, because it's possible that on a DOO train for there to be a need (without any other staff present) to evacuate onto a platform in the event of e.g. a fire, and if they're not so trained then the disabled person's safety would be seriously and unnecessarily compromised.

It shows a serious lack of respect to disabled people to be going on about "that's not my job, that's 'is job" type protectionist nonsense like this, to be honest. It should be every single member of railway staff's responsibility to deal with a disabled person's needs if they are in a position to do so.

Thus my view that there needs to be more legal action against the railway, even for minor failures, until the pressure forces them to change.

 

[Wolfie]

Nonsense about prosecuting the driver individually. Drivers are not trained or insured to use wheelchair ramps and any driver that uses the ramp should be disciplined for doing so.

This is a falling of the company's that run DOO services without staff at stations to assist.


Absolutely. This is a failing that LNER really need to address. The attitudes that a sadly decent sized number of railway staff have to wheelchair users is unacceptable. This is coming from an experienced member of staff that sees this on a daily basis and does challenge it.

At no point did l say that individual drivers, as opposed to their employers, should be prosecuted if they aren't trained. I'm saying that in the circumstances that l specified they should be trained.