Baroness Thatcher has died

[bb21]

In addition, bus deregulation outside London took place in 1986 which led to massive patronage loss in the big cities.

Patronage levels were declining long before privitisation so that is not the primary reason for it. Patronage levels were falling mainly due to increases in car ownership.

 

[DarloRich]

Couldnt agree more, as I actually can remember her being voted in (unlike quite a few of the commenter's on here no doubt) she did some fantastic things as PM (before being sh%t on by her own cabinet) and dragged this Country kicking and screaming into the (then) modern age.

At the end of her tenure she was ill-advised and made a few mistakes but overall she did a lot more good than bad.

For you perhaps. For much of society, particularly that in the north, north east, and Scotland those polices lead to an economic wilderness.

 

[Butts]

:roll:I am not even going to respond to this immature naivety in detail other than to suggest you take a look at what actually happened to the millions of people thrown on the scrap heap and the communities, still suffering today, that were destroyed by her policies. Perhaps you came from the “I’m all right jack” section of society created by these policies? I don’t. I know what she and her acolytes did. It won’t be forgotten.

Did things need to change? Yes. Did that change have to leave behind millions of people? No.

While the above is a viewpoint that may be shared by many it is still no excuse to celebrate her death.

 

[radamfi]

Patronage levels were declining long before privitisation so that is not the primary reason for it. Patronage levels were falling mainly due to increases in car ownership.

Until the early 80s yes. And outside the PTE areas deregulation had little effect as services had already been run down. However, the PTE areas did slow down the patronage loss in the early 80s with service improvements, low fares policies and improved integration. The speed of patronage loss in these areas accelerated dramatically after 1986. The bus might be a better tool in cutting congestion today if deregulation didn't happen.

 

[4SRKT]

This has been coming for a while, but when it did finally happen it would be a very sad day. She was (in my opinion anyway, which I know differs to a substantial number of others on here) the best Prime Minister we ever had, with the possible exception of Churchill, and gave millions of young people the incentive to do as they wished - after all, she was a female in the biggest job of them all!

Rest in peace, Lady T. The thoughts of people all over the world are with your family at this time.

It should be noted that there will be no State Funeral as per her own wishes, although I would expect *something* to happen to celebrate her life and work.

Oh, and just this once, maybe you Labourites should give the Lady a break.

You're too young to have lived through it I'm afraid. And not from a part of the country ripped apart by her cruel, vile and divisive politics. As such your sycophancy is especially tasteless. Relief at the death of such an appalling, callous person is no worse than your indifference to the fates of millions of miners, steelworkers and others, many of whose lives will have been cut short by the poverty she knowingly inflicted on them. Are their deaths unimportant to you? It certainly looks that way. Next time you're doing a DayRover get out of the train at Fitzwilliam, South Elmsall, Castleford etc etc. I promise you you'll be wanting to leave pretty quickly but at least you have that option. The politics you endorse did this to these places.

The witch is dead. Ding dong.

 

[bb21]

For you perhaps. For much of society, particularly that in the north, north east, and Scotland those polices lead to an economic wilderness.

Many of the industries those communities relied on were already in permanent decline and without reform they would die a painful death amid competition in an increasingly globalised economy. She had to make decisions that bring this country's economy into the modern era and that is what she did.

Whenever there is reform, some sections of the population will lose out while others flourish. I am yet to find one prime minister under whose rein all sections of the society flourished. Those that are unable to move on with the times are naturally left behind and this is a principle which applies across board all over the world. No different under Tony Blair, or Brown, or Cameron.

What I admire most about her is her courage and the fact that she did what she genuinely thought was the best for this country. Hardly something that can be said for her successors.

She will be equally loved and villified by sections of the society, as with all the other prime ministers this country has had. She is no different to anyone else in this respect.

 

[Smethwickian]

I too vehemently disagreed with every single one of her policies and could never, in a million years, envisage any reason to vote for her.

But even so, I have a grudging respect for her conviction, strength of character and leadership skills.

If only more politicians had those qualities, regardless of whether they are in the left, right or centre ground, people might have more respect for the political system and more engagement with the democratic process, instead of bemoaning a bunch of spin-led, careerist, image-conscious non-entities who don't have a single strong opinion between them until they're fed the appropriate party line.

 

[TheEdge]

It sad to see the passing of such a great stateswoman.

Now I don't expect everyone to be in a state of mourning now but I'd like to hope that most people are mature enough to not celebrate a death. I wont be upset when Mr Blair passes but I wont be dancing on is grave either.

 

[4SRKT]

I too vehemently disagreed with every single one of her policies and could never, in a million years, envisage any reason to vote for her.

But even so, I have a grudging respect for her conviction, strength of character and leadership skills.

If only more politicians had those qualities, regardless of whether they are in the left, right or centre ground, people might have more respect for the political system and more engagement with the democratic process, instead of bemoaning a bunch of spin-led, careerist, image-conscious non-entities who don't have a single strong opinion between them until they're fed the appropriate party line.

Hitler was a politician with conviction, strength of character and leadership skills. As were Mao, Stalin and sundry other unpleasant individuals.

Not in any way comparing Thatcher to these people, but merely pointing out that conviction, strength of character and leadership skills are not in themselves a good thing. Thatcher had them and used them to crush the working classes, which was a bad thing. Now her successors vilify the people put in this mess by the spiritual leader. Nice.

 

[Butts]

You're too young to have lived through it I'm afraid. And not from a part of the country ripped apart by her cruel, vile and divisive politics. As such your sycophancy is especially tasteless. Relief at the death of such an appalling, callous person is no worse than your indifference to the fates of millions of miners, steelworkers and others, many of whose lives will have been cut short by the poverty she knowingly inflicted on them. Are their deaths unimportant to you? It certainly looks that way. Next time you're doing a DayRover get out of the train at Fitzwilliam, South Elmsall, Castleford etc etc. I promise you you'll be wanting to leave pretty quickly but at least you have that option. The politics you endorse did this to these places.

The witch is dead. Ding dong.

No doubt these views are endorsed by the millions of people who purchased their Council Houses thus delivering to them at a "hefty discount" a start on the property ladder ?

Were they able to overlook the other activities of "the witch" in order to follow this course of action ?

 

[4SRKT]

No doubt these views are endorsed by the millions of people who purchased their Council Houses thus delivering to them at a "hefty discount" a start on the property ladder ?

Were they able to overlook the other activities of "the witch" in order to follow this course of action ?

And where has this policy led? Massive underprovision of housing. True, she encouraged selfishness, not a good thing. Once you sell someone a house at a 'hefty discount' that house can never be sold at a 'hefty discount' again. Thus the price of housing spirals up and up.

If the best you can do is quote the views of people who got a one-off benefit without knowing or caring about the wider socio-economic impact (i.e. they were bribed at the expense of both poorer people at the time and the next generation, and overlooked the witch's other activities for personal gain), then that's pretty poor.

 

[table38]

And where has this policy led? Massive underprovision of housing.

Why? Unless all these people bought their council houses and knocked them down?

 

[bb21]

Hitler was a politician with conviction, strength of character and leadership skills. As were Mao, Stalin and sundry other unpleasant individuals.

You are comparing Mao with Stalin? Not in the same league whatsoever.

 

[4SRKT]

Why? Unless all these people bought their council houses and knocked them down?

You didn't read the rest of the post, did you? Perhaps if I'd said 'affordable housing' it would have been clearer, but I shouldn't really have had to.

You are comparing Mao with Stalin? Not in the same league whatsoever.

<sigh> As I said I'm not comparing anyone with anyone. Just giving examples of people who had the three supposedly admirable traits who didn't use them well.

 

[table38]

You didn't read the rest of the post, did you? Easier that way I guess.

Sure I did, but it didn't make sense either :roll:

 

[soil]

I don't think anyones death is a cause for celebration unless they were suffering and wished to pass away.

You may disagree with someones politics but that is no reason to rejoice in their death.

A lot of people making the derogatory comments are probably to young to remember the "fag end" of the seventies and what life was actually like.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...her-was-ecstatic-that-shes-dead-2013040865066

 

[4SRKT]

Sure I did, but it didn't make sense either :roll:

In what way? Sell off houses at a 'discount'. Houses enter the main housing market. Get sold at huge profit. Poorer people can't afford houses and don't have the option to rent from the Council any more. Pretty basic economics really.

 

[bb21]

You didn't read the rest of the post, did you? Easier that way I guess, but not advisable if you want to keep up.



<sigh> As I said I'm not comparing anyone with anyone. Just giving examples of people who had the three supposedly admirable traits who didn't use them well.

While these qualities alone are not sufficient, her intentions were good as she wanted to make the British economy more competitive on the world stage and demonstrated that this falling world giant can still be powerful when needed. She used them to ultimately good causes which differentiates her from the likes of Hitler.

Whether she went about things in the right way is open to opinions and the British population will never reach consensus on this.

 

[4SRKT]

I would never seek to anything as facile as conpare any British politician to Hitler. I don't however think she did anything good fir the country as a whole, just her tribe. Trickle down economics is a nonsense as the last few years have shown.

 

[DarloRich]

No doubt these views are endorsed by the millions of people who purchased their Council Houses thus delivering to them at a "hefty discount" a start on the property ladder ?

Were they able to overlook the other activities of "the witch" in order to follow this course of action ?

Not at all the right to buy was a fantastic idea. It remains a fantastic idea.

The problem was that the proceeds could not be reinvested into the creation of further housing stock that the councils could rent and then sell on ( and so on and so on) The system should have allowed for a whole generation of people to own their own homes via an affordable means. Instead the councils were forbidden to reinvesting in the housing sector. Instead of being a force for social good it was used as a way of getting the councils out of the housing market.

 

[table38]

In what way? Sell off houses at a 'discount'. Houses enter the main housing market. Get sold at huge profit. Poorer people can't afford houses and don't have the option to rent from the Council any more.

But the number of houses was still the same, so if anything it would reduce demand in the rental sector and bring prices down. Pretty basic economics really.

 

[4SRKT]

The number of affordable houses is reduced. <sigh> And whatever your (very) basic economics tells you SHOULD have happened, it hasn't.

 

[ainsworth74]

Not at all the right to buy was a fantastic idea. It remains a fantastic idea.

The problem was that the proceeds could not be reinvested into the creation of further housing stock that the councils could rent and then sell on ( and so on and so on) The system should have allowed for a whole generation of people to own their own homes via an affordable means. Instead the councils were forbidden to reinvesting in the housing sector. Instead of being a force for social good it was used as a way of getting the councils out of the housing market.

This, I completely agree. The policy of 'right to buy' was a brilliant idea, the mistake was then in not forcing the councils to replace the lost housing stock and instead forcing them to pay down their debts with the money instead.

 

[4SRKT]

This, I completely agree. The policy of 'right to buy' was a brilliant idea, the mistake was then in not forcing the councils to replace the lost housing stock and instead forcing them to pay down their debts with the money instead.

Exactly. Except this was no 'mistake' but quite deliberate.

 

[Requeststop]

The best thing the Tory party did was to stab her in the back. It showed what viscious swine they can be even to their own.

 

[RPM]

This, I completely agree. The policy of 'right to buy' was a brilliant idea, the mistake was then in not forcing the councils to replace the lost housing stock and instead forcing them to pay down their debts with the money instead.

Ain't that the truth. Well said.

 

[soil]

The number of affordable houses is reduced. <sigh> And whatever your (very) basic economics tells you SHOULD have happened, it hasn't.

Isn't this because the last Labour government presided over the highest levels of immigration in history (over three million, net - three cities the size of Birmingham), and failed to build sufficient housing, especially in the South East, to house them.

On top of this they ran up house prices way beyond the means of ordinary people while lining their pockets with the profits and second home allowances. This left us in a terrible mess that we apparently cannot afford to deflate these.

There would be plenty of 'affordable homes' if market prices weren't so high.

 

[SS4]

I don't think anyones death is a cause for celebration unless they were suffering and wished to pass away.

You may disagree with someones politics but that is no reason to rejoice in their death.

It's arguable she laughed all the way to the bank on the misery and suffering of millions and ironically she likely has Argentina to thank for getting a second term.

A lot of people making the derogatory comments are probably to young to remember the "fag end" of the seventies and what life was actually like.

That's why we have the history books and the entire argument reeks of you're too young so your opinion is invalid unless it agrees with my correct one

I'm sure many New Labour supporters will also be in mourning since she's a role model to them.

 

[Ivo]

You're too young to have lived through it I'm afraid. And not from a part of the country ripped apart by her cruel, vile and divisive politics. As such your sycophancy is especially tasteless. Relief at the death of such an appalling, callous person is no worse than your indifference to the fates of millions of miners, steelworkers and others, many of whose lives will have been cut short by the poverty she knowingly inflicted on them. Are their deaths unimportant to you? It certainly looks that way. Next time you're doing a DayRover get out of the train at Fitzwilliam, South Elmsall, Castleford etc etc. I promise you you'll be wanting to leave pretty quickly but at least you have that option. The politics you endorse did this to these places.

This may be true, as you of all people would know - I was about 1.65 years old when she left office, and only just passed my third birthday when she left Parliament completely (21st anniversary tomorrow) - but I have to stand by what others such as bb21 have said in that many of these areas were already declining. If I was PM in her time I too would have felt that the best way to deal with this situation would be to bring it about quickly instead of allowing a slow and painful death, because at least that way the areas affected can have a new platform to build on much more easily.

I come from a *very* poor background myself, and have officially been in poverty since I was 8. But on the flip side, I am very much a supporter of her, because what she did was for the country's benefit - and sometimes in life, we have to sacrifice the few to support the many. Now, I realise this is a rather large and seirous example of this, but the point still stands; in her time, London was *the* place for economics and the like and the great northern cities such as Leeds and Manchester were mere shadows of both their former selves and what they have become in the last 20 years.

Of course, where I live now isn't exactly Conservative heartlands - but even (most) Bathonians know what she did was for the best. They may not agree with, and they may not like it, but personal opinion is less important than delivering the goods - and that was something Lady T excelled at.

I'm sure many New Labour supporters will also be in mourning since she's a role model to them.

Without question. I am sure that many other supporters of Thatcher across the country (this site may be another matter) would agree that he did a good job of emulating her, even those among us whom are naturally Right-Wing such as myself.

 

[4SRKT]

Isn't this because the last Labour government presided over the highest levels of immigration in history (over three million, net - three cities the size of Birmingham), and failed to build sufficient housing, especially in the South East, to house them.

On top of this they ran up house prices way beyond the means of ordinary people while lining their pockets with the profits and second home allowances. This left us in a terrible mess that we apparently cannot afford to deflate these.

There would be plenty of 'affordable homes' if market prices weren't so high.

It's partly that, yes, but on the back of years of no Council House building it was disastrous. Like most things there is no single cause, and NuLab really continued to drop us in the Scheisse long term. I've no affection for them either.