Baroness Thatcher has died

[jb]

I still maintain that those who are criticising these actions have no understanding of the pain, humiliation and destruction that her policies brought on communities in this country. many of these once vibrant communities are still suffering today.

The (fairly important) bit that's inevitably left out of this line of argument is what would have happened other than for Thatcher. The answer is that a lot of the pain, humiliation and destruction was probably inevitable.

Such may have been avoided, or at least reduced, with a deeply social-democratic (I hesitate to use the word socialist) model comprising heavy taxation with massive propping-up (or regeneration if you prefer) of communities previously sustained by failing industries. It *might* have worked to some degree.

The problem is that such a model had been tried, immediately before, and failed spectacularly.

 

[Aldaniti]

Those most informed on the Thatcher era are able to identify her strengths and achievements whilst recognising that some of her decisions and policies have led to problems that remain with us today. Neil Kinnock was on TV last night saying that Arthur Scargill was equally responsible for the decimation of the mining industry in this country. In her quest to bring the unions under control (which was much needed) miners and communities suffered terribly and I believe that the way this was managed was her biggest mistake. Equally, her great success in my opinion was to put the dark days of the seventies behind us. What her successors have singularly failed to do is identify some of the more negative consequences of her policies on the country as a whole. Thus, a lack of regulation of the capitalist economy has led to the financial crisis we have today. Major and Blair could have done something to help avoid it. The gap between rich and poor actually increased under Blair, Mrs Thatcher believed that privatisation of the utilities would drive down prices, the opposite has been the case. What did Major, Blair and Brown do about it?

I can understand why some people remain bitter and I respect your views but I think the burden of your bitterness needs to be shared more widely with other politicians and union leaders of those times.

 

[DarloRich]

The (fairly important) bit that's inevitably left out of this line of argument is what would have happened other than for Thatcher. The answer is that a lot of the pain, humiliation and destruction was probably inevitable.

Such may have been avoided, or at least reduced, with a deeply social-democratic (I hesitate to use the word socialist) model comprising heavy taxation with massive propping-up (or regeneration if you prefer) of communities previously sustained by failing industries. It *might* have worked to some degree.

The problem is that such a model had been tried, immediately before, and failed spectacularly.

I think the main problem following the change was that there was nothing. No support, no transition, no retraining, no help to find a new job. People were cut adrift and then demonised for being cut adrift.

Even if one of her cronies could come out and admit that they caused pain and suffering to millions it might be a start towards some kind of reconciliation. The fact they wont simply adds further insult to the injury.

Those most informed on the Thatcher era are able to identify her strengths and achievements whilst recognising that some of her decisions and policies have led to problems that remain with us today. Neil Kinnock was on TV last night saying that Arthur Scargill was equally responsible for the decimation of the mining industry in this country. In her quest to bring the unions under control (which was much needed) miners and communities suffered terribly and I believe that the way this was managed was her biggest mistake.

Indeed. Scargill was a nutter. He was, however, right that she wanted to destroy an entire industry and an entire way of life. His biggest mistake was in aiming only for THE win rather than A win. In holding out for everything he ensured the miners got nothing.

I can understand why some people remain bitter and I respect your views but I think the burden of your bitterness needs to be shared more widely with other politicians and union leaders of those times.

Perhaps - However, just as rabid right wingers will not hear of any criticism of Thatcher, many people won’t blame their own.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

The update from the North is their is a large number of people in ex pit villages that have large hangovers this morning

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have heard it said that she was to the country at large what Beeching was to the British railway system. Anyone with any thoughts on that point ?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

You won't see any mention of the Labour government that first took free milk from all secondary school kids in 1968 or the fact free milk has been continually phased out for higher age groups by just about every subsequent government, Conservative and Labour. Inconvenient truths have no place it seems.

Well, this is a thread about Margaret Thatcher - if you wish to start one about the iniquities of Labour Governments I'd do my best to contribute.
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Was funny seeing them partying at Brixton by the Ritzy this evening. For socialists, they certainly were wearing very expensive clothing and drinking fancy beer which costs a few bob. Im guessing it was just Prosecco bottles popping too, saving the champagne for indoors out of sight

I wasn't aware that there is a dress code for Socialists! Please enlighten!
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[jon0844]

The update from the North is their is a large number of people in ex pit villages that have large hangovers this morning

They were probably drunk before they heard the news of her death.

 

[Buttsy]

After the winter of discontent in 1978/79, the economy had a small upswing under Callaghan & Healey as they had started using some monetartist ideas. When the election came through the vote of no confidence, twice as many people thought that Farmer Jim would be a much better leader than Mrs T, though were not happy with Labour policies. People voted for a change and that change lead to an immediate recession and a trebling of the unemployed over the next 2-3 years.
The fact she was re-elected in 1983 had, in my view, more to do with the rather unfair electorial system we have and a feel good factor from the Falklands, than the policies that were in the Conservative manefesto.

Her funeral should be on a par with that of MacMillan, Wilson, Heath and Callaghan rather than a level down from Churchill.

I'm glad she's dead,she destroyed the hope of a large proportion of my generation and those before me. Let us learn from her legacy and ensure the same mistakes are not made again as all parties have been following them ever since as they appear not to believe they will get re-elected otherwise.

 

[HST Power]

I didn't live under the Thatcher Government. Therefore, I can appreciate that I am somewhat ignorant of those times as I did not experience them myself.

Nonetheless, I still think that the celebration of a death is distasteful. If those who were affected by her policies want to express themselves, it should not be done so through street parties and champagne bottles. When such actions are viewed by the public, are they going to feel sympathetic to the struggles of the miners and the like, or shocked by the callous nature of such a practise?

A Unionist openly admitted on BBC News late yesterday evening that he'd saved himself champagne for the occasion. What a wonderful representation of the communities who were destroyed under Thatcher. Whilst I can appreciate that the actions of one don't speak for the actions of many, people all over the country have been celebrating her death in full view of the media. Instead of using it as a platform to actually convey an understanding of the Thatcher era, parties and celebrations have ensued. I for one will feel no sympathy for them if this is the way they behave.

I'm not supporting or rejecting Thatcher's policies, but to those of you branding her a witch and revelling in her demise, you are hardly any better if you are rejoicing in the death of a person.

Hate right wing politics/Thatcherism if you like but what happened to respect for the dead?

 

[Chapeltom]

I was born after Thatcher's term in office and whilst I do understand a lot of the anger as I have studied it in History and have learnt a lot about her in Politics at A-Level and now University level, what I cannot understand why people would celebrate her death. Elements of the left wing (who are in a minority in the UK) sicken me, celebrating a death is low, making it so vocal really is not right at all. Thatcher had been out of office over 20 years and no politician after has done anything to reverse her policies, and yet she her death is still celebrated as if she'd died in office. The left wing cause will draw no sympathy if they continue to act like children. The left want to appear as the respectable side of the political spectrum, the democratic side of it, the free speech side of it but we see nothing like this in Britain. Its all hate this, can't say that, don't do this, conform to our views or be demonised.

I'm split on a lot of issues (I'm Libertarian) but I'm simply put off even wanting to listen to left wing ideals when a decent proportion of lefties act like children.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

The left wing cause will draw no sympathy if they continue to act like children. The left want to appear as the respectable side of the political spectrum, the democratic side of it, the free speech side of it but we see nothing like this in Britain. Its all hate this, can't say that, don't do this, conform to our views or be demonised.

I'm split on a lot of issues (I'm Libertarian) but I'm simply put off even wanting to listen to left wing ideals when a decent proportion of lefties act like children.

[/QUOTE]

I'd be interested to know who and what you mean by 'the left', can't say that I recognise your perception of the left is any different to that of 'the right'...people who hold strong beliefs will often be loud and outspoken. If you are at University then you may of course be referring to small vocal groups that have always been around amongst students..makes life interesting! Not sure either what children have got to do with it.
Thatcher herself thought that she was divisive (as many have been stating on this thread)...and that is why she didn't want a state funeral. Surely a great politician would not polarise opinion in such a way (Nelson Mandela as an positive example?)

 

[Ivo]

I have heard it said that she was to the country at large what Beeching was to the British railway system. Anyone with any thoughts on that point ?

A good way of describing things. Restructuring that is for the best of the country, not blatantly for and against specific groups.

 

[soil]

Indeed. Scargill was a nutter. He was, however, right that she wanted to destroy an entire industry and an entire way of life. His biggest mistake was in aiming only for THE win rather than A win. In holding out for everything he ensured the miners got nothing.

This is rubbish.

Industrial output grew under the 1970-1974 Conservative government. It also grew under the 1979 - 1997 Conservative government.

It shrunk under the 1974-1979 and 1997-2010 Labour governments.

In addition, coal mines just keep on closing. Britain's largest shut last month: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/07/650-jobs-daw-mill-coal-mine.

Even a coal industry subject to massive levels of closures was still unsustainable.

No more sustainable was the likes of British Leyland, subject to 523 walkouts by Red Robbo. Thatcher didn't destroy it, Labour did.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No more sustainable was the likes of British Leyland, subject to 523 walkouts by Red Robbo.

Good to see someone else like me who was around at the time of "Red Robbo"...he was the greatest British gift ever made to the Japanese car production industry.

 

[jb]

I have heard it said that she was to the country at large what Beeching was to the British railway system. Anyone with any thoughts on that point ?

Hm... parallels...

• Tough love (some say extremely / overly tough) administered to an ailing system
• Likely inevitability of eventual outcome; hard to construct a counterfactual with a radically different ending
• Bitterly divisive at the time and since; liable to cause strong antipathetic reaction in some
• Charges of malevolent intent laid at the instigator
• Acceptance, sometimes grudging, of necessity / inevitability in more rational recent analysis

Analogy sounds good.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

Good to see someone else like me who was around at the time of "Red Robbo"...he was the greatest British gift ever made to the Japanese car production industry.

I do recall that some of the cars produced weren't actually outstanding! Austin Allegro, Morris Marina and the later rustbucket that was the Metro spring to mind, don't think that their design could be the fault of those people who built them!

 

[455driver]

The update from the North is their is a large number of people in ex pit villages that have large hangovers this morning

They are not short of a few bob if they can afford to go out and get that p1ssed then are they?

 

[Butts]

Good to see someone else like me who was around at the time of "Red Robbo"...he was the greatest British gift ever made to the Japanese car production industry.

I can remember the night shifts when they used to take their beds in - great stories for the media of the day!!

Parliament is lacking Politicians of the stature of Thatcher today, people who lived and often fought through WW2.

Many great orators as well like Michael Foot, Tony Benn and Enoch Powell.

Heath, Callaghan , Healey, Whitelaw, Macmillan all went to War as did many of the great Union Leaders of those days.

By comparison todays Politicians are shallow and largely devoid of any charisma.

 

[Johnuk123]

By comparison todays Politicians are shallow and largely devoid of any charisma.

Can you imagine Milliband or Clegg going to Europe and demanding a budget rebate !

When it comes to handing the rebate back for nothing whatsoever then that's a different story.

 

[wensley]

This is rubbish.

Industrial output grew under the 1970-1974 Conservative government. It also grew under the 1979 - 1997 Conservative government.

It shrunk under the 1974-1979 and 1997-2010 Labour governments.

In addition, coal mines just keep on closing. Britain's largest shut last month: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/07/650-jobs-daw-mill-coal-mine.

Even a coal industry subject to massive levels of closures was still unsustainable.

No more sustainable was the likes of British Leyland, subject to 523 walkouts by Red Robbo. Thatcher didn't destroy it, Labour did.

Coal mines keep closing now thanks to a lack of investment in previous decades, Thatcher seemingly took the decision that it would be easier and cheaper (in the short term) to close the pits and destroy communities, instead of invest in new technology to improve efficiency and make the industry profitable once more. There's plenty of coal out there that cannot feasibly be excavated now that collieries have closed - it would simply be too costly and difficult.

Thousands of jobs were lost and whole families thrown into turmoil. Most miners did not like the job itself, but it was a way of life and all that many families had known for generations. You only have to visit former coalfields and see the depravation that still remains.

She was a very powerful and commanding woman, which is all that I am willing to say for her. But she used her power to divide the working classes to acheive her own ends, and I, personally, cannot see how anyone can defend her policies, or the way she enacted them. As mentioned, Scargill has a lot to answer for - but he wasn't the one ordering the Police to act like a private army, or trying everything possible to get scabs back underground.

I'm not old enough to remember Thatcher's time in power, but I'm from a mining family and have a deep interest in her era, which has led to be doing a lot of reading and research for my own interest. I for one have no sadness to see her dead. However, her death does nothing to heal the deep wounds she inflicted on parts of this country that seemingly remain to this day.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

:roll:I am not even going to respond to this immature naivety in detail other than to suggest you take a look at what actually happened to the millions of people thrown on the scrap heap and the communities, still suffering today, that were destroyed by her policies. Perhaps you came from the “I’m all right jack” section of society created by these policies? I don’t. I know what she and her acolytes did. It won’t be forgotten.

Did things need to change? Yes. Did that change have to leave behind millions of people? No.

+1 I will never forget the images of the 80s due to that person.

 

[jon0844]

I'm not old enough to remember Thatcher's time in power, but I'm from a mining family and have a deep interest in her era, which has led to be doing a lot of reading and research for my own interest. I for one have no sadness to see her dead. However, her death does nothing to heal the deep wounds she inflicted on parts of this country that seemingly remain to this day.

Being from a mining family, I'd have to expect that your family may well have painted a rather biased picture that you've now built everything else around to support that view.

Even Ken Livingstone said just earlier on Sky that mining was finished. Just as today we're seeing the death of the high-street and the loss of many retail jobs as people shop online; some things just have to come to an end whether we like it or not (sad as it).

My grandfather also worked down the mines in Wales, if it makes any difference.

 

[DarloRich]

I didn't live under the Thatcher Government. Therefore, I can appreciate that I am somewhat ignorant of those times as I did not experience them myself.

Nonetheless, I still think that the celebration of a death is distasteful. If those who were affected by her policies want to express themselves, it should not be done so through street parties and champagne bottles. When such actions are viewed by the public, are they going to feel sympathetic to the struggles of the miners and the like, or shocked by the callous nature of such a practise?

A Unionist openly admitted on BBC News late yesterday evening that he'd saved himself champagne for the occasion. What a wonderful representation of the communities who were destroyed under Thatcher. Whilst I can appreciate that the actions of one don't speak for the actions of many, people all over the country have been celebrating her death in full view of the media. Instead of using it as a platform to actually convey an understanding of the Thatcher era, parties and celebrations have ensued. I for one will feel no sympathy for them if this is the way they behave.

I'm not supporting or rejecting Thatcher's policies, but to those of you branding her a witch and revelling in her demise, you are hardly any better if you are rejoicing in the death of a person.

Hate right wing politics/Thatcherism if you like but what happened to respect for the dead?

As I have said - posts like this show a distinct lack of understanding of WHY people feel the need to celebrate the demise of this woman.

Perhaps if she had showed some compassion and respect for the people she destroyed her death might elicit the same response in wide sections of the public.
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Being from a mining family, I'd have to expect that your family may well have painted a rather biased picture that you've now built everything else around to support that view.

Even Ken Livingstone said just earlier on Sky that mining was finished. Just as today we're seeing the death of the high-street and the loss of many retail jobs as people shop online; some things just have to come to an end whether we like it or not (sad as it).

My grandfather also worked down the mines in Wales, if it makes any difference.

A good patronising right wing response there. Of course the victims view point couldn’t possible have any merit could it? To acknowledge that would mean you have to acknowledge what her policies did to those on the receiving end.

EDIT - that is not designed as an attack on your peronal politics of which i have no knowledge.

 

[soil]

Coal mines keep closing now thanks to a lack of investment in previous decades, Thatcher seemingly took the decision that it would be easier and cheaper (in the short term) to close the pits and destroy communities, instead of invest in new technology to improve efficiency and make the industry profitable once more. There's plenty of coal out there that cannot feasibly be excavated now that collieries have closed - it would simply be too costly and difficult.

Really?

The Socialists over in France didn't think to preserve any coal mines.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...th-tears-but-not-a-single-protest-561039.html

Many of the same stories there as here FWIW.

Lots of jobs and industries no longer exist. The issue is more to do with new industry, new jobs, than preserving old and uncompetitive ones.

 

[DarloRich]

Lots of jobs and industries no longer exist. The issue is more to do with new industry, new jobs, than preserving old and uncompetitive ones.

Indeed - The point is very little was done to find new industries to move into the areas concerned or to aid people to find new employment.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed - The point is very little was done to find new industries to move into the areas concerned or to aid people to find new employment.

A point worth considering is that both Labour and Conservatives had each had a long term as the ruling Government in the post-Thatcher time period. Which of these two political parties has made any strenuous moves to aid a return to NEW large-scale industries in apposition to those remaining industries ?

 

[jon0844]

A good patronising right wing response there.

EDIT - that is not designed as an attack on your peronal politics of which i have no knowledge.

You say it's patronising but forgot to say whether you agreed or disagreed with it!

Would you not agree that if you admit you never knew anything about her time in power (too young - a pretty valid excuse!) and only had the views from a family that worked in mining there's just a teeny weeny chance that it might have been a bit biased??

My father would have the same view, given his father worked in a mine that closed, and so I've heard plenty of bad things myself - but in my job, it's important to look at both sides.

For the record, when she came to power I was just 5 years old.

 

[Oswyntail]

... Thatcher seemingly took the decision that it would be easier and cheaper (in the short term) to close the pits and destroy communities, instead of invest in new technology to improve efficiency and make the industry profitable once more. .....

Again, this is often put forward. But it does omit the third factor in the debate - Scargill and his union. They were refusing the new technology without being paid massively to use it, and they were refusing even to discuss changes in working practices to increase efficiency. Both sides, in effect, were gambling, and the stakes were the communities. The difference was that, whereas the Government had an excuse (just) for not realising the total dependency of the communities on mining, Scargill knew full well what he was playing with. It takes two sides to negotiate, and the NUM refused point blank from the start.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For the record, when she came to power I was just 5 years old.

...whereas I was 34 years of age when she came to power and can well remember other matters that occurred in the country in the 20 years prior to her arrival.

 

[HST Power]

As I have said - posts like this show a distinct lack of understanding of WHY people feel the need to celebrate the demise of this woman.

I bet half the people celebrating weren't even born when Thatcher was in power. Judging by the scenes yesterday evening, it was just another good excuse to go out and run riot.