Battery electric trains or Hydrogen Trains?

[D365]

You’re not going to get EMU performance using a battery train off the wires, that much is certain. There is arguably a use case for BEMUs on electrified lines, which may be investigated further in the future.

 

[gallafent]

That might still prove true in the long term. The only place I see ever see battery powered Teslas is on display at a Tesla showroom.

They're getting more common gradually in these parts. Mostly model S but the occasional X too. There are loads in London, a rare visit when I don't see one. At this point they're only at the luxury end of the market of course, … but provided they actually manage finally to ramp production, the model 3 will change that. There are plenty of i3s, Outlander PHEVs, Prius plug-ins, Leaves, Zoes, etc., around these days too (some of which are pure battery, others petrol hybrid, of course, … but the direction of travel is clear).

http://europe.autonews.com/article/...-s-outsells-german-luxury-flagships-in-europe — article from February this year observing changes at the top end of the car market. Changes that happen there seem to come to the mid market pretty quickly, and then eventually trickle down to cheap models.

“Germany's premium brands are under pressure to accelerate their plans for electric cars after Tesla's Model S outsold the luxury flagships of Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi in Europe for the first time.
“European sales of the Model S outstripped German premium brands' range-topping sedans including the Mercedes S class and BMW 7 series.
“The Model S has outsold German rivals in the upper-sedan category in the U.S in previous years, but never in Europe.”
etc.

I have never seen a hydrogen car on the road. I recall seeing a few buses (London? Reading? Can't remember) but they're certainly outnumbered by the BYD electric single deckers that I see every time I'm in London thesd days (and of course there are many many diesel-electric hybrids in London and elsewhere these days!)

 

[TwistedMentat]

For long distance high speed mainline use the obvious solution would be centenary. I can't think of even any diesel high speed trains beyond the 200kph mark.

Battery for the short branchlines where you have the option of deploying some sort of shoe or pantograph to 'plug in' and do a quick top up would make sense. It could even be worth exploring for stopping services. Quick charge at each stop with a longer charge at each terminus.

 

[Domh245]

There is arguably a use case for BEMUs on electrified lines, which may be investigated further in the future.

I don't suppose you could expand on that? Presumably the idea is to reduce the current draw on busy trunk sections, and then recharging them (whilst operating normally) on quieter parts of the electrified network, but I can't see how that'd work properly.

I have never seen a hydrogen car on the road. I recall seeing a few buses (London? Reading? Can't remember) but they're certainly outnumbered by the BYD electric single deckers that I see every time I'm in London thesd days (and of course there are many many diesel-electric hybrids in London and elsewhere these days!)

The problem with hydrogen cars is that there isn't the infrastructure for them. Electric cars are difficult enough in terms of differing chargers and the distance between charging points, but there certainly isn't any widespread hydrogen filling point infrastructure that I'm aware of.

 

[TwistedMentat]

I don't suppose you could expand on that? Presumably the idea is to reduce the current draw on busy trunk sections, and then recharging them (whilst operating normally) on quieter parts of the electrified network, but I can't see how that'd work properly.

Oooooo, hadn't thought of that. Could be useful for more suburban lines. Lots of stop-start movement with lots of users on the same circuit.

 

[D365]

I don't suppose you could expand on that? Presumably the idea is to reduce the current draw on busy trunk sections, and then recharging them (whilst operating normally) on quieter parts of the electrified network, but I can't see how that'd work properly.

Yeah essentially that. The idea is to run longer trains during the day, without using more current. I imagine the benefit will be seen primarily at peak hours on DC routes; whether this is an economic use case will depend on the cost comparison to substation upgrades.

 

[Domh245]

Funnily enough, DC suburban routes (specifically SWR) were what I had in mind when I said it, but I'd think that the chances of it being economically advantageous* are somewhat slim. Additionally, I would think that on sections were there are plenty of stop/start services, running those as BEMUs might be worse than running them as actual EMUs in terms of regenerative braking, unless the efficiency of charging/depleting the battery is better than that of just putting it into the third rail and taking it back out again.


*potentially if you just look at the cost of upgrading substations vs fitting batteries, but I'd very much doubt it if you do it properly and look at things like the increased axle weights and track access charges that'd come as a result and assessing those over a sensible life time.

 

[43096]

Roger Ford's monthly heads up (received today) is suggesting that the next Modern Railways will once again attempt to explain why neither batteries or hydrogen are the answers some organisations are hoping for.

I expect he means that batteries will remain a minor contribution suitable for short branches off the wires, and that hydrogen has no economic case on a large scale. Not really news.

It isn't really news, but hopefully those who think that they are the solution might read it and see the limitations of whatever their chosen magical new fuel source is (be it battery, hydrogen or bionic duckweed). The answer to removing diesel trains from the network on a large scale is simple: a rolling electrification programme. NR need to get costs under control to enable this to be re-started.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Although I share the scepticism expressed by others about the likelihood of hydrogen powered trains becoming a significant part of future train fleets nevertheless I was most interested to read about plans being progressed in Frankfurt:
https://www.railjournal.com/index.p...-german-hydrogen-train-order.html?channel=000

FRANKFURT Rhine-Main Vehicle Management (Fahma), a subsidiary of Rhine-Main Transport Authority (RMV), published a tender notice in the Official Journal of the European Union on April 20 for a contract to supply a fleet of hydrogen fuel cell multiple units for regional services on non-electrified lines in the Taunus area of Hessen.
[snip]
Fahma envisages around 26 trains will be required for the Taunus network, although the bidders are expected to specify the exact number of trains needed to maintain the proposed timetable for the four routes.

The Taunus network is, as you would expect, quite hilly requiring decent traction performance so there is obviously confidence that hydrogen power will be suitable for rail traction despite the so far very limited experience of it.

 

[whhistle]

That may be true, but the roller coaster of phasing out diesel has started, resistance is futile etc etc!

They'll be around for 10+ years yet though.

I'd happily trade in my diesel for an electric but the offer of "get £3000 off when you spend £15,000" isn't really enticing.
I have other things I'd rather spend my money on right now... like diesel.

 

[reddragon]

They'll be around for 10+ years yet though.

I'd happily trade in my diesel for an electric but the offer of "get £3000 off when you spend £15,000" isn't really enticing.
I have other things I'd rather spend my money on right now... like diesel.

Have you seen the list of manufacturers that are phasing our diesel cars this year? Pretty much all Japanese, Asian, US & Italian manufacturers have abandoned diesel cars already, so buy one why you can! The rest will have to follow as diesel bans spread.

Batteries & Capacitors can replace diesels, but this will start small as technology leaps ahead from easy branch lines today, the IEPs will change within 10 years but heavy freight will take a lot longer & need recharging wires.

5% of new cars today are electric, and all new models being announced have electric versions. Why? because electric cars are cheaper to run & own than ICE cars, better to drive and are not going to get banned from towns & cities!

 

[Mordac]

Off-topic discussion, but I was never that persuaded that diesel cars measured up to petrol engined ones in terms of responsiveness and driveability. I hope us petrol-heads don't have to suffer too for a problem that's largely diesel's fault! I'd happily buy a hybrid if I could get one with a manual transmission, but that seems to be beyond the ken of the car industry.

Oh well, at least no one's peddling electric motorbikes yet...

 

[reddragon]

Off-topic discussion, but I was never that persuaded that diesel cars measured up to petrol engined ones in terms of responsiveness and driveability. I hope us petrol-heads don't have to suffer too for a problem that's largely diesel's fault! I'd happily buy a hybrid if I could get one with a manual transmission, but that seems to be beyond the ken of the car industry.

Oh well, at least no one's peddling electric motorbikes yet...

Electric motorbikes outsell electric cars on a basis on 70 to 1 worldwide!

 

[D365]

Off-topic discussion, but I was never that persuaded that diesel cars measured up to petrol engined ones in terms of responsiveness and driveability.

My diesel Fiesta is far nicer to drive than the petrol I used before that; more low-end torque and the engine is quieter at motorway speed. Not sure if that relates to all vehicles but this seems to be the case with small cars.

 

[Mordac]

My diesel Fiesta is far nicer to drive than the petrol I used before that; more low-end torque and the engine is quieter at motorway speed. Not sure if that relates to all vehicles but this seems to be the case with small cars.

What was the difference in the cars' ages? If you're comparing a diesel from today with a petrol engine from 10 years ago...

 

[HSTEd]

As to resilience issues, over land pole lines are actually really cheap, on order of £100k/km for ~33kV.

So you could just run a 25kV-0-25kV pole line between the detached island and some other convenient electrified section.

What was the difference in the cars' ages? If you're comparing a diesel from today with a petrol engine from 10 years ago...

My driving instructors car taught to me to love diesel, you can pull away on hills easily and without the panicky mashing of controls required to stop a petrol from stalling.

 

[Domh245]

My diesel Fiesta is far nicer to drive than the petrol I used before that; more low-end torque and the engine is quieter at motorway speed. Not sure if that relates to all vehicles but this seems to be the case with small cars.

On the flip side, my friend who'd learnt to drive on a Diesel was rather enjoying the opportunity to drive 'my' Petrol Meriva on the French autoroutes. He really rather enjoyed the responsiveness of it compared to Diesel, but I'll grant you that Diesel easily beats petrol in terms of low end torque and high speed engine noise.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Funnily enough, DC suburban routes (specifically SWR) were what I had in mind when I said it, but I'd think that the chances of it being economically advantageous* are somewhat slim. Additionally, I would think that on sections were there are plenty of stop/start services, running those as BEMUs might be worse than running them as actual EMUs in terms of regenerative braking, unless the efficiency of charging/depleting the battery is better than that of just putting it into the third rail and taking it back out again.


*potentially if you just look at the cost of upgrading substations vs fitting batteries, but I'd very much doubt it if you do it properly and look at things like the increased axle weights and track access charges that'd come as a result and assessing those over a sensible life time.

Wouldn't it be easier to put the batteries at the substations? Then you wouldn't need to lug the battery around in a train, and the battery could be directly connected to the substation transformer, which would probably protect the transformer more effectively.

 

[TwistedMentat]

Wouldn't it be easier to put the batteries at the substations? Then you wouldn't need to lug the battery around in a train, and the battery could be directly connected to the substation transformer, which would probably protect the transformer more effectively.

That could work. But you'd then have all that extra current going through the rails. If they can keep up with the draw then sure, putting the battery packs at the substation probably makes more sense. Like the battery storage that Tesla and South Australia put together.

Actually, now that I think about it that would make a hell of a lot of sense. Battery for those peak draws and charging in the quieter moments. All without putting extra weight in the carriages. And with the DC lines you can even avoid the inverters.

 

[mpthomson]

That might still prove true in the long term. The only place I see ever see battery powered Teslas is on display at a Tesla showroom.

At one point DEMUs didn't look to have a future, given the 210s only lasted a few years but then the Voyagers came along.

There are a fair few Teslas of all flavours around Yorkshire, I see them fairly routinely.

 

[hooverboy]

I don't suppose you could expand on that? Presumably the idea is to reduce the current draw on busy trunk sections, and then recharging them (whilst operating normally) on quieter parts of the electrified network, but I can't see how that'd work properly.



The problem with hydrogen cars is that there isn't the infrastructure for them. Electric cars are difficult enough in terms of differing chargers and the distance between charging points, but there certainly isn't any widespread hydrogen filling point infrastructure that I'm aware of.

problem with hydrogen cars is the extreme high pressure required to store it,and the low calorific value of the fuel compared to LPG/LNG

 

[hooverboy]

Off-topic discussion, but I was never that persuaded that diesel cars measured up to petrol engined ones in terms of responsiveness and driveability. I hope us petrol-heads don't have to suffer too for a problem that's largely diesel's fault! I'd happily buy a hybrid if I could get one with a manual transmission, but that seems to be beyond the ken of the car industry.

Up until about 15 years ago they weren't! only really got sorted after they made a few fuel mods and cracked high compression and turbo's.

Diesel years ago used to have a really nasty reputation for turning the consistency of hawked up phlegm in cold weather

 

[edwin_m]

Off-topic discussion, but I was never that persuaded that diesel cars measured up to petrol engined ones in terms of responsiveness and driveability. I hope us petrol-heads don't have to suffer too for a problem that's largely diesel's fault! I'd happily buy a hybrid if I could get one with a manual transmission, but that seems to be beyond the ken of the car industry.

Oh well, at least no one's peddling electric motorbikes yet...

I've replied to this on a new thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/electric-cars.163587/

 

[Bald Rick]

Wouldn't it be easier to put the batteries at the substations? Then you wouldn't need to lug the battery around in a train, and the battery could be directly connected to the substation transformer, which would probably protect the transformer more effectively.

Becomes a bit of a problem when there isn’t electrification for whatever reason.

Battery trams are here (in service in Birmingham as of yesterday). Battery trains are coming, be under no illusions. They won’t replace electrification, but will enable short branch lines or those that have shortish sections non-electrified to run with electric trains off the wires. E.g. Ashford - Hastings, Uckfield, North Downs, some Thames Valley branches, Windermere, et al. The main current issue is that the cost of a battery pack is more expensive than a diesel powertrain, on a like for like basis. However the cost of the former is falling, as is the acceptability and reputation of the latter.

 

[whhistle]

My driving instructors car taught to me to love diesel, you can pull away on hills easily and without the panicky mashing of controls required to stop a petrol from stalling.

If you learnt to drive properly, pulling off on a steep hill shouldn't be an issue.
Handbrake on (yes, remember that device people rarely use these days). Foot on clutch. In 1st gear. Foot on accelerator, slowly off the clutch until the car feels like it wants to move (people call this "the bite"). Handbrake off.
Most people stall as they don't rev the engine enough, nor do they use the clutch to control the pulling off speed.

I agree, diesel cars may be being phased out now, but there's a huge amount of 2nd/3rd/4th hand diesel cars around, that will be around for many years yet.
The other thing that (currently) encourages diesel use is road tax. My petrol = £190. The diesel? £30.

 

[HSTEd]

If you learnt to drive properly, pulling off on a steep hill shouldn't be an issue.
Handbrake on (yes, remember that device people rarely use these days). Foot on clutch. In 1st gear. Foot on accelerator, slowly off the clutch until the car feels like it wants to move (people call this "the bite"). Handbrake off.
Most people stall as they don't rev the engine enough, nor do they use the clutch to control the pulling off speed

Setting the accelerator is a pain that is unnecessary in a diesel. On essentially all reasonable slopes a turbo diesel can pull away under clutch control alone.
Its much simpler and avoids a control ballet that distracts from surroundings at a critical moment

 

[InTheEastMids]

problem with hydrogen cars is the extreme high pressure required to store it,and the low calorific value of the fuel compared to LPG/LNG

Plus the high cost of hydrogen. The hydrogen economy advocates tell us that we should strip it from natural gas and then bury the resulting CO2 using CCS - which nobody seems to have much appetite for (yet). The main advocates of hydrogen are actually the gas network companies such as National Grid and Cadent (i.e. those who are left with a massive stranded asset problem if UK will not need so much gas infrastructure).

From renewable electricity, the round-trip losses of converting power to hydrogen, compressing it, transporting it and then converting it back to electricity inside a train will make it (at a rough estimate) 2-3 times more expensive to move a train.

Becomes a bit of a problem when there isn’t electrification for whatever reason.

Battery trams are here (in service in Birmingham as of yesterday). Battery trains are coming, be under no illusions.

The context of my comment was batteries on already electrified railways (particularly 3rd rail) where they could remove constraints on substations. Although to clarify, the expensive bit is not usually the substation itself, but potentially many km of (buried) high voltage cables.

However, yes I agree with your point and await Roger Ford's promised analysis with interest. The tipping point where they transform what the industry means by "electrification" is fast approaching.

 

[reddragon]

Setting the accelerator is a pain that is unnecessary in a diesel. On essentially all reasonable slopes a turbo diesel can pull away under clutch control alone.
Its much simpler and avoids a control ballet that distracts from surroundings at a critical moment

On an electric car, you put your foot down & it goes, you lift off and it slows & stops. No gears, brake pedals, clutch etc.

Trains will adopt the same technology, and with battery costs down to £140/kW in 2017 (they were £1200/kw in 2010) and heading for under £100/kW by next year cost issue will vanish. Power density is also increasing, with 60kW batteries fitting where 20kW batteries went a few years ago.

V2G technology (vehicle to grid) and micro grids enables power to flow both ways between the grid; batteries and vehicles, eliminating the need for continuous o/h cable or 3rd rail, power upgrades (thus eliminating the Southern DC issue) by spreading batteries on trains, power supply points and at grid generation points wherever it works best. If trains & / or substations on the Poole - Weymouth line had this, then full length trains could run at full speed without a power upgrade on the route.

 

[NSEFAN]

On an electric car, you put your foot down & it goes, you lift off and it slows & stops. No gears, brake pedals, clutch etc.

Trains will adopt the same technology, and with battery costs down to £140/kW in 2017 (they were £1200/kw in 2010) and heading for under £100/kW by next year cost issue will vanish. Power density is also increasing, with 60kW batteries fitting where 20kW batteries went a few years ago.

V2G technology (vehicle to grid) and micro grids enables power to flow both ways between the grid; batteries and vehicles, eliminating the need for continuous o/h cable or 3rd rail, power upgrades (thus eliminating the Southern DC issue) by spreading batteries on trains, power supply points and at grid generation points wherever it works best. If trains & / or substations on the Poole - Weymouth line had this, then full length trains could run at full speed without a power upgrade on the route.

I can see batteries being used to allow a higher peak power draw, allowing longer trains this way. I would not however expect to see trains powering each other via 3rd rail, as the substation sections are short and so trains would need to be in the right places at the right times (I.E. Useless in disruption!)

 

[The Ham]

Setting the accelerator is a pain that is unnecessary in a diesel. On essentially all reasonable slopes a turbo diesel can pull away under clutch control alone.
Its much simpler and avoids a control ballet that distracts from surroundings at a critical moment

It's also simpler and avoids a control ballet that distracts from surroundings at a critical moment to drive an automatic.

I've learnt, with practice, to make such activities almost automatic and so doesn't overly distract me when driving. However if also suggest that a hill start is a relatively safe activity to undertake whilst distracted in that (unless you roll backwards) you are at low speed and so can stop over a short distance even if you take a second or two longer to react. Whilst changing gear can be at much higher speeds, making a smaller distraction much more problematic given the distances that could be traveled whilst at (say) 40mph.

It also should be noted that you undertake a LOT less hill starts than great changes, meaning the likelihood of making a mistake whilst changing gears over any time period could be higher.

I would suggest that it is therefore likely to be safer to drive a petrol automatic than a diesel manual. (Not that I drive an automatic, nor am I likely to).