BBC article regarding the use of Welsh language by TfW

[Chris M]

The BBC has an article that TfW have broken Welsh language rules in at least six ways.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51011565
The Welsh Language Commissioner's draft report apparently highlights the following:

The draft report said the company was found to be in breach of standards by:

• Failing to provide announcements bilingually
• The Transport for Wales app was only available in English
• Its website was automatically set to English, and not fully functioning in Welsh
• Self service machines were automatically set to English and not fully functioning in Welsh
• Train tickets were only printed in English
• Correspondence was not all bilingual

Most of them seem to me to be completely (or reasonably completely) within the control of TfW, but what about tickets? Is printing bilingual tickets something they (or any other TOC for that matter) could do on their own or would that be something needing coordination (at least) with others - and if so who - RDG? DfT?

 

[O L Leigh]

I think that bilingual tickets would only be required for TfW, as surely they are the only operator subject to Welsh Assembly rules. But I do take a small issue with some of the other points raised.

Where a train has PIS then bilingual announcements should be doable, but if a train does not (or it’s faulty) are we expecting the traincrew to be bilingual? What about announcements for out-of-course situations or dealing with enquiries from passengers on train?

Again the correspondence is open to question. All standard non-solicited correspondence should perhaps be bilingual, but if they’re replying to someone who contacted them in either English or Welsh it seems sensible to reply in the same language and not both.

The website and TVMs should be fully functioning in both languages, but it is standard practice to default to one language and have others as options. I may be judging, but I would say that English is more widely spoken and understood than Welsh, so perhaps it makes sense to have them default to English. The alternative of having both languages appearing simultaneously strikes me as very cumbersome and potentially unusable.

 

[yorkie]

It does seem to be taking things to extremes.

@O L Leigh - good post.

The alternative of having both languages appearing simultaneously strikes me as very cumbersome and potentially unusable.

I get the impression there are actually some individuals who would be more interested in the principle of Welsh appearing than any usability concerns

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

I think that bilingual tickets would only be required for TfW, as surely they are the only operator subject to Welsh Assembly rules. But I do take a small issue with some of the other points raised.

Where a train has PIS then bilingual announcements should be doable, but if a train does not (or it’s faulty) are we expecting the traincrew to be bilingual? What about announcements for out-of-course situations or dealing with enquiries from passengers on train?

Again the correspondence is open to question. All standard non-solicited correspondence should perhaps be bilingual, but if they’re replying to someone who contacted them in either English or Welsh it seems sensible to reply in the same language and not both.

The website and TVMs should be fully functioning in both languages, but it is standard practice to default to one language and have others as options. I may be judging, but I would say that English is more widely spoken and understood than Welsh, so perhaps it makes sense to have them default to English. The alternative of having both languages appearing simultaneously strikes me as very cumbersome and potentially unusable.

There is no need for them to default to anything, as all cash machines etc do in Wales all that is need is a option for Welsh or English before you start anything and go from there. I think that would be the simplest otherwise it may not be clear how to get the Welsh option or indeed if it was in Welsh to get the English.

 

[PeterC]

I think that bilingual tickets would only be required for TfW, as surely they are the only operator subject to Welsh Assembly rules. But I do take a small issue with some of the other points raised.

Where a train has PIS then bilingual announcements should be doable, but if a train does not (or it’s faulty) are we expecting the traincrew to be bilingual? What about announcements for out-of-course situations or dealing with enquiries from passengers on train?

Again the correspondence is open to question. All standard non-solicited correspondence should perhaps be bilingual, but if they’re replying to someone who contacted them in either English or Welsh it seems sensible to reply in the same language and not both.

The website and TVMs should be fully functioning in both languages, but it is standard practice to default to one language and have others as options. I may be judging, but I would say that English is more widely spoken and understood than Welsh, so perhaps it makes sense to have them default to English. The alternative of having both languages appearing simultaneously strikes me as very cumbersome and potentially unusable.

Website language should default based on the visitor's location.

I would expect customer facing staff to be bilingual in Welsh speaking areas but not automatically in places like Newport.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Just to clarify in case anyone isn't up to date. In Wales it is enshrined in law that all public bodies must treat English and Welsh as an equal. No greater no less than each other.

So before this turns into a " I'm not sure this or that is needed " thread , it is not a choice that can be made, the law makes it very clear what is required and rightly so.

 

[O L Leigh]

Just to clarify in case anyone isn't up to date. In Wales it is enshrined in law that all public bodies must treat English and Welsh as an equal. No greater no less than each other.

Yes absolutely. I wasn't suggesting that the Welsh language wasn't needed but rather questioning the way in which the language laws are interpreted and applied.

There is no need for them to default to anything, as all cash machines etc do in Wales all that is need is a option for Welsh or English before you start anything and go from there. I think that would be the simplest otherwise it may not be clear how to get the Welsh option or indeed if it was in Welsh to get the English.

That seems eminently sensible then, especially if it's replicated elsewhere such as on ATMs.

 

[Envoy]

Why should the website & ticket machines automatically set Welsh as the priority over English - the main language of the people of Wales & the international language of the World? The parking machines on the streets of Cardiff are set to Welsh and this is causing no end of confusion - with locals and visitors alike as they have to find a button to switch them to English. (They then go back to Welsh ready for the next client). If the rail ticket machines get set to Welsh, it will cause no end of problems for the majority as well as foreign visitors.

I think it is appalling the way in which the English language has been treated on new signage that appeared recently at Cardiff Central & no doubt other stations in Wales - see photo below. Not only is it placed second, but it is also considerably fainter than the Welsh version. Who are the Welsh Language Society to dictate to the majority that their language should have such priority and that everybody in Wales should learn Welsh? This surely is not going to favour inward investment into Wales.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Why should the website & ticket machines automatically set Welsh as the priority over English - the main language of the people of Wales & the international language of the World? The parking machines on the streets of Cardiff are set to Welsh and this is causing no end of confusion - with locals and visitors alike as they have to find a button to switch them to English. (They then go back to Welsh ready for the next client). If the rail ticket machines get set to Welsh, it will cause no end of problems for the majority as well as foreign visitors.

I think it is appalling the way in which the English language has been treated on new signage that appeared recently at Cardiff Central & no doubt other stations in Wales - see photo below. Not only is it placed second, but it is also considerably fainter than the Welsh version. Who are the Welsh Language Society to dictate to the majority that their language should have such priority and that everybody in Wales should learn Welsh? This surely is not going to favour inward investment into Wales.

View attachment 72441

It is the same size , saying the same thing , in a different colour for ease of distinction between the two. Basically, as the law requires. Both languages are equal. Well done TfW

 

[Leo1961]

It is the same size , saying the same thing , in a different colour for ease of distinction between the two. Basically, as the law requires. Both languages are equal. Well done TfW

Would you be as happy if the "colours" were swapped in the future?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Would you be as happy if the "colours" were swapped in the future?

The colour really isn't an issue I don't think is it? Certainly not for me at least.

 

[Ianno87]

It is the same size , saying the same thing , in a different colour for ease of distinction between the two. Basically, as the law requires. Both languages are equal. Well done TfW

How visible is the light grey to partially sighted people....?

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

How visible is the light grey to partially sighted people....?

Partially sighted mean partially sighted not colour blind. They will be able to see exactly the same of both.

 

[urbophile]

Isn't it the law that public servants in Wales should be bilingual? In what sense are TfW employees not public servants?

 

[tomwills98]

Nice to see the "why is the Welsh language being used in Wales when I can't understand it thread" people are out

The TVM's have the different language options as flags on the home screen and it's just press to change. If there was only a Cymraeg/English option then What @Y Ddraig Coch has said would work, but there's also Spanish, Polish and a couple others to choose from.
Bilingual announcements have been brought out for testing and are not fully in service. Turns out it's quite difficult (but doable) to make a Welsh auto announcer.
I'm yet to find a page on the Welsh website that isn't Welsh, and there's an easy toggle switch to change between the two.
All correspondence should be going out as Welsh if requested no questions asked.
Bilingual ticket stock exists and is there to order.

How many teeth does the Welsh Language Commissioner have? To my knowledge Trago Mills in Merthyr still has English only signage.

 

[Dave W]

Isn't it the law that public servants in Wales should be bilingual? In what sense are TfW employees not public servants?

That's not the case, although all correspondence - digital or otherwise - from government organisations (not just Welsh Gov) must be available in Welsh - this would normally only be sent on request although during my time at HMRC there was a flag on taxpayer accounts for "Welsh Speaker", which a few systems (by no means all) would check to decide whether to generate a document in Welsh.

 

[Cardiff123]

Just to clarify in case anyone isn't up to date. In Wales it is enshrined in law that all public bodies must treat English and Welsh as an equal. No greater no less than each other.

So before this turns into a " I'm not sure this or that is needed " thread , it is not a choice that can be made, the law makes it very clear what is required and rightly so.

Isn't it the law that public servants in Wales should be bilingual? In what sense are TfW employees not public servants?

Transport for Wales, is an arms length government body, owned and run by the Welsh Govt, so the Welsh language equality law applies to it. https://tfw.wales/
Transport for Wales Rail Services, is a private organisation operated by private French/Spanish owned firm Keolis Amey. So whilst TfW Rail Services is providing a public service, it's grey area whether the bi-lingual rules apply to them, even though TfW RS are obviously making every effort to adhere to the rules. https://tfwrail.wales/

 

[PaulHarding150]

View attachment 72441

Bilingual signs should IMO either contain two colours or two type faces (regular and italic etc) as a monolingual life long resident of Wales there are some truly appalling bilingual documents/signs out there that are difficult to read. Many of which come from government sponsored bodies.

The shade of gray has been discussed on another thhread (see Metro branding).

As for things like CIS displays on trains yes easy to make them bilingual, but ATW never did it.

I get the impression there are actually some individuals who would be more interested in the principle of Welsh appearing than any usability concerns

Desperately resists the urge to rise to the bate. No I can't do it. Yorkie, you're completely right.

 

[yorkie]

How visible is the light grey to partially sighted people....?

Depends on the person and how affected they are. We do have some partially sighted people on the forum who may be able to assist in answering this question ( @james-martin ?)

My natural eyesight is very poor and I would have to get even closer to the light grey text to be able to read that, compared to the darker bolder text.

 

[175001]

The use of Welsh is law. End of story.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Bilingual signs should IMO either contain two colours or two type faces (regular and italic) as a monolingual life long resident of Wales there are some truly appalling bilingual documents/signs out there that are difficult to read. Many of which come from government sponsored bodies.

The shade of gray has been discussed on another thhread (see Metro branding).

As for things like CIS displays on trains yes easy to make them bilingual, but ATW never did it.



Desperately resists the urge to rise to the bate. No I can't do it. Yorkie, you're completely right.

I need to correct you there all the ATW and the now TfW 175's always have CIS onboard in bilingual.

 

[PaulHarding150]

I need to correct you there all the ATW and the now TfW 175's always have CIS onboard in bilingual.

Was the full message was bilingual on the 175s?

I distinctly remember station names being translated but nothing else - i.e. "The next station stop is Swansea/Abertawe" etc

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Was the full message was bilingual on the 175s?

I distinctly remember station names being translated but nothing else - i.e. "The next station stop is Swansea/Abertawe" etc

Maybe the verbal announcement wasn't. I cant actually recall now, but the screens onboard have always been bilingual. The announcements on the platforms have been both also for a number of years now since the introduction of the chap that does them in Welsh and the lady still does the English.

***Edit*** I am pretty certain the chap does the announcements in Welsh on the train as well. So I think there is bilingual announcements on board.

 

[clagmonster]

Bilingual ticket stock exists and is there to order.

Is bilinguak ticket stock routinely used in Wales or only on request? Presumably stocked by guards, TVMs and booking offices?

 

[PaulHarding150]

Maybe the verbal announcement wasn't. I cant actually recall now, but the screens onboard have always been bilingual. The announcements on the platforms have been both also for a number of years now since the introduction of the chap that does them in Welsh and the lady still does the English.

***Edit*** I am pretty certain the chap does the announcements in Welsh on the train as well. So I think there is bilingual announcements on board.

YouTube video of the inside of a 175 audio and visual announcements in English only, with the exception of place names.

Is bilinguak ticket stock routinely used in Wales or only on request? Presumably stocked by guards, TVMs and booking offices?

Realistically orange paper tickets will not be bilingual but E/M tickets bought on the app should be.

 

[lachlan]

Partially sighted mean partially sighted not colour blind. They will be able to see exactly the same of both.

Thanks for your input. Are you partially sighted?

As an actual partially sighted person myself a font in a lighter colour with less contrast would be harder for me to read. However these signs in Cardiff Central are big and it's easy to get up close. That doesn't excuse making the English fainter.

Please just use the same font and size for both English and Welsh. Making text fainter makes it harder to read.

 

[tomwills98]

Is bilinguak ticket stock routinely used in Wales or only on request? Presumably stocked by guards, TVMs and booking offices?

Realistically orange paper tickets will not be bilingual but E/M tickets bought on the app should be.

I imagine the ticket office or staff depot order it as they usually would. Edit- I imagine it should be the standard going forward, and any English only stock is used up.

Perfectly realistic for it to be bilingual, and they are available to staff to order. Welsh at the top of the ticket, mag stripe, endorsement box, English at the bottom. Everything is possible, it just depends on how much time and money you're willing to invest. Edit 2- There's also bilingual seat reservation labels.

 

[PHILIPE]

I've noticed bi-lingual signs in some stores who try to use these and the Welsh Grammar and spelling often leave a lot to be desired. Also at the end of a short bit of road leading into a main ONE WAY street I encountered markings on the road saying "TURN RIGHT" and "TROWCH I'R CHWITH".
I'm sure that non-Welsh speakers will gather what I'm getting at. The Council soon rectified it after it had been reported

 

[PaulHarding150]

I imagine the ticket office or staff depot order it as they usually would. Edit- I imagine it should be the standard going forward, and any English only stock is used up.

Perfectly realistic for it to be bilingual, and they are available to staff to order. Welsh at the top of the ticket, mag stripe, endorsement box, English at the bottom. Everything is possible, it just depends on how much time and money you're willing to invest. Edit 2- There's also bilingual seat reservation labels.

What's printed on the back of the ticket yes, but the front of the ticket - that's unlikely. It would be ridiculously crowded and I'd imagine make the situation far worse for those with and without sight problems.

 

[Dr Day]

ATW and I presume TfW RS certainly had orange blank ticket stock with things like references to conditions of carriage on the back in both Welsh and English. What the ticketing system doesn't do is print say the origin and destination stations with the Welsh names rather than the English.