A career as a train driver

[Scott]

Thanks But I think I'd probably need the honest opinion of a person who works in railway rather than a website, because websites don't know what really goes on in most cases. :-P

 

[westcoaster]

normally you work your way up in railways, but you can sometimes get in at the top straight away, it all depends, some companies are very hard to get into at the drivers grade nxec is one of these, not sure about t&w metro. could always give it ago. just remember the age restrictions 21 is the minimum for driving trains in the uk.

 

[332 > 444]

Unless its The London Underground as i am told its 18.

 

[Scott]

Do you think Tyne and Weare metro would be 21+, or 18+ like the L Underground?

 

[Darandio]

Do you think Tyne and Weare metro would be 21+, or 18+ like the L Underground?

Pretty sure it is 21 Scott, heard it somewhere but it was a while back so don't quote me on that.

Elsewhere, First Scotrail are recruiting Trainee Drivers for various locations

http://www.firstscotrailrecruitment.com/fsr/viewjob.asp?Job_ID=334676

 

[O L Leigh]

Do you think that, if I left education with A level English Language and A level maths, along with a GCSE in engineering I'd automatically get past the application process of becoming a train driver?

No. You would still have to go through the same selection and assessment process as everyone else.

Also, is it possible to become a train driver as soon as you've left education, or do you have to have had previous jobs?

Theoretically, yes (after Uni at 21). In practice, I doubt it.

The railway will need to be satisfied that you can work alone, follow rules, are responsible and can remain calm and in control in an emergency situation. Unless you've already had an eventful life and are incredibly mature for your years, you probably won't be able to satisfy them of that.

Furthermore to you have to be something like a tickets salesman before becoming a train driver? I know that sometimes TOCs openly advertise trainee driver positions, but does that mean that they're basically advertising to the other TOCs' employees in positions such as a tickets salesman?

No. I applied straight in off the street for a trainee driver position, but not every TOC does this.

Finally, do you think it would be worth me becoming a driver of something like the Tyne & Wear Metro (which I convieniently literally have right on my doorstep) before proceeding to mainline trains? E.g. do you start out as a Metro Driver, then work your way up the train driver ladder to mainline trains, or are all trains as difficult (or easy :-P) as eachover to drive?

If you want to be a Metro driver then go for it, but I wouldn't consider it as a career stepping stone to mainline driver. We've got ex-Tube drivers on our lines and they've had to apply, be assessed and trained for mainline the same as everyone else.

There are two main paths into driving. The first is to get another job with a TOC (e.g. RPI, ticket office or traincrew) and then wait for the vacancies to be advertised internally. The second is to apply directly for a driver's position when they are advertised externally. However, in both cases you will still be required to sit the same assessments, interviews, aptitude tests and medicals to make sure that you're up to the job. You will also have exactly the same training. The only shortcut that already working for the TOC provides is that you're not having to compete with hundreds of other applicants just to get a place on an assessment.

If you're up in Geordieland, your best bet is probably getting some other job with a TOC. Down here where there is a lot of DOO working there is not a huge pool of talent to draw from, so trainee driver positions are often advertised externally. Not having any DOO up in the North-East would probably mean that all driver vacancies are filled from internal applicants, so you would need to get a foot in the door by doing something else first.

O L Leigh

 

[ungreat]

As O L Leigh says,neither Tube or Metro experience will count in mainline railways...although it CAN be a small leverage point at an interview,in the respect that you have been in charge of passenger carrying vehicles.

You would been ok under the old drivers assistant way into driving...join up as a traction trainee,do your course,hopefully pass out and then just wait until you were 21 and get automatic promotion if any driver vacancies came up at your depot.If they didn't,then move and get one elsewhere!

 

[Scott]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
Do you think that, if I left education with A level English Language and A level maths, along with a GCSE in engineering I'd automatically get past the application process of becoming a train driver?

No. You would still have to go through the same selection and assessment process as everyone else.

I meant it as in, do you think that I'd most likely automatically make it past the application process to the assessment process? Seeing as I would have some of the best qualification you can get.

And I don't like the idea of getting a job in a TOC and waiting for a trainee driver position to be advertised internally. I know loads of people are suggesting this, but it seems to me like more of a risk than a good career move, because there mightn't be a trainee driver position advertised for years, then when it does I mightn't even get the position and it might be advertised externally anyway. :-?

 

[Guinness]

21 on Tyne and Weir as it operates on NR Mainline Metals IIRC.

 

[ungreat]

I meant it as in, do you think that I'd most likely automatically make it past the application process to the assessment process? Seeing as I would have some of the best qualification you can get.

And I don't like the idea of getting a job in a TOC and waiting for a trainee driver position to be advertised internally. I know loads of people are suggesting this, but it seems to me like more of a risk than a good career move, because there mightn't be a trainee driver position advertised for years, then when it does I mightn't even get the position and it might be advertised externally anyway. :-?

Nope to your first question...I know people who have qualifications of that calibre and failed at the first hurdle.The initial approach either kills it or clinches it for the individual.You may well get this that and the other qualification wise but if you can't demonstrate how these would help you in day to day train driving then they are not worth a jot.You have to convince the person who reads your letter of application that you have more to offer than just bits of paper.

And the second...you are far more likely to bypass any external applicants if you already are in the rail industry..it depends how determined you are to get into the driving grade.
There are lots of drivers up for retirement in the next few years,and lots of TOCs are/will be recruiting to cover this.They will probably take internal applicants first,then external ones.If you are already in the industry you stand a far better chance of being selected.It also depends how old you are now..if you are under 21 still,then dont even worry about driving yet as you will not be considered for main line duties.

 

[Scott]

Nope to your first question...I know people who have qualifications of that calibre and failed at the first hurdle.The initial approach either kills it or clinches it for the individual.You may well get this that and the other qualification wise but if you can't demonstrate how these would help you in day to day train driving then they are not worth a jot.You have to convince the person who reads your letter of application that you have more to offer than just bits of paper.

It couldn't be like that. All other jobs mianly look at the qualifications. If they didn't, what would be the point in them? I know it's hard to get a job as a train driver, but TOCs aren't allowed to push it as far as not even recognizing the qualifications the government requires all companies to as worthwhile things.

 

[jopsuk]

It couldn't be like that. All other jobs mianly look at the qualifications. If they didn't, what would be the point in them? I know it's hard to get a job as a train driver, but TOCs aren't allowed to push it as far as not even recognizing the qualifications the government requires all companies to as worthwhile things.

Don't take this the wrong way, but you've got a lot to learn about the way the world really works!

There's no requirement upon any companies to look upon academic qualifications of being of any value whatsoever. Yes, for many jobs, especially at school-leaver or graduate level, the qualifications will be used at the initial sift, or possibly to decide between two otherwise identical candidates, but for any job, what is more important is your experience; who you are as a person; how you come over in interview. Qualifications say how good you are at exams and essays. It's possible to be qualified to doctorate level and be virtually unemployable in the "real" world- luckily for people like that there's always jobs in academia...

Properly, the point of education should not be to get qualifications (though this is sadly where it is focused) but to learn things and develop skills. Qualifications should just be a marker to show the level of education you have. They're in no way the ultimate indicator of how suitable you'd be for a job. After all, one of the engineering technicians where I work has a degree in History of Art...

 

[Pumbaa]

It couldn't be like that. All other jobs mianly look at the qualifications. If they didn't, what would be the point in them? I know it's hard to get a job as a train driver, but TOCs aren't allowed to push it as far as not even recognizing the qualifications the government requires all companies to as worthwhile things.

Urm, do they? I'm a Managing Director of a company, admittedly nothing to do with Railways. First thing I look for is experience and ability to communicate etc. I don't want to know their qualifications, I just want to know that they are able to work. School pushes it a bit when it comes to the importance of qualifications and A-Levels etc. They are important for universities and alike, which are important to gaining a degree, which are important for getting somewhere for some people.

Experience speaks twice as loudly as qualifications, as the general saying goes.

 

[Scott]

We get told at school that when applying for jobs, they usually choose the people with the best qualifications.

 

[Pumbaa]

We get told at school that when applying for jobs, they usually choose the people with the best qualifications.

It depends what job. And for train driving, there are no "must have" qualifications.

 

[dan_atki]

Properly, the point of education should not be to get qualifications (though this is sadly where it is focused) but to learn things and develop skills. Qualifications should just be a marker to show the level of education you have. They're in no way the ultimate indicator of how suitable you'd be for a job. After all, one of the engineering technicians where I work has a degree in History of Art...

Exactly - one of the fundamental flaws has been hit on the head here. Next year as part of my degree I have to do a 'Communicating and Researching' module which develops things such as teamwork and presentation skills. I also do quite a bit of work for the university on open days, developing organisational and interpersonal skills.

Of course, that's not to say that academic qualifications are completely disregarded - just that schools and colleges tend to focus on getting you to do all the work as best as possible for themselves to be further up the league tables (and that is what I honestly think it all boils down to at the end of the day). OK schools and colleges do some things to develop you but not as much as they can - I mean when was the last time you did a group presentation and actually took it seriously to the extent you met up every night to sort it out? I can have a good guess at the answer.

There are other things employers look for though. If someone has perfect punctuality and is never late (even for school) then that can speak volumes to some employers who don't want to lose manhours. There are other things too, such as how you are with time management and prioritising workload, what extra curricular activities you do outside of school, what skills you have taught yourself, and how you can work both alone and as part of a team.

Application forms for jobs will normally have a space for these, and they're general things that can be put on a CV too (for employers that still look at them, along with covering letters).

With 'unrelated' degrees popping up quite frequently now, it's a case of getting one shows determination and hard work regardless of the subject (of course, there are some completely ridiculous ones such as 'surfing studies' which are an exception) and that tends to be the sort of thing employers look for.

Trying to shift the focus of the topic slightly, on the railways it really does depend what you're applying for and how old you are as to what they want in you. A driver has to have the ability to work alone with initiative and have excellent concentration and attention to detail. They don't want to spend all that money training you (£70k if I recall) if you're going to turn up for work late, have station overruns, and generally being on the radio every five minutes wanting your hand held. OK maybe I exaggerated that slightly but I'm sure the point is evident. Alternatively you may become a platform assistant, and whilst a level of attention to detail is needed, there are different things too such as ability to work as part of a team, speak politely face-to-face with customers and other such work.

Most of the time, ability to work at a job can be ascertained through an initial assessment and/or interview where it is more than likely they will ask you several hypothetical questions: 'If this was to happen what would you do?' kind of thing. They also want things like 'Describe a time in the past where you had to work as part of a team and if you had any problems, how did you overcome them?'. First impressions really do count (and even the effort of turning up the interview dressed smartly, on time, enthusiastic, and generally having good interview skills) will speak volumes to the employer - the sort of things that can't be determined by the fact you have an A in GCSE English Literature.

 

[ungreat]

We get told at school that when applying for jobs, they usually choose the people with the best qualifications.

Thats true,to a point..depends on the job and the other applicants.For example,say we have a candidate who has 900 A levels and can build space shuttles from tin lids but no work experience,and one other who has no formal qualifications but works on the railway as say a station host,both applying for a driver's job.I know who the interviewing officer would choose to interview.

And it ain't Mr Tin lids.
Sorry to be on such a downer mate,but if you are still at school then consider some other railway career first.I had 8 straight A grade O levels when I left school,and not one depot wanted to know,until i got myself on a BR YTS scheme.I had experience then of platform work,signal boxes,etc.Ok,I was only making tea for them,but on paper I finally had experience!..Within 4 months of this,I got a full time job with BR as a traction trainee at Waterloo.As has been said,experience will give you a 1000% advantage when it comes to your turn.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
" A driver has to have the ability to work alone with initiative and have excellent concentration and attention to detail. They don't want to spend all that money training you (£70k if I recall) if you're going to turn up for work late, have station overruns, and generally being on the radio every five minutes wanting your hand held. OK maybe I exaggerated that slightly but I'm sure the point is evident."

Very evident and very true indeed

 

[jopsuk]

We get told at school that when applying for jobs, they usually choose the people with the best qualifications.

Then you need better careers advisors! This isn't to say don't work hard and do as well as you can in your exams, as like I say, qualifications can get used as the initial sift, and if you're not up to scratch, you might get dropped before they look at the other stuff. But after that, it's the other stuff that counts.

 

[me123]

We get told at school that when applying for jobs, they usually choose the people with the best qualifications.

Not usually, although it does depend on the job.

Look at Medicine. For my interviews, I needed to show a commitment to Medicine through both volunteer work and shadowing placements, demonstrate communication skills, speak coherently about some pretty complicated ethical issues and show a wide range of activities outside medicine. Easier said than done.

AAAAB at Scottish Higher are the minimum entry requirements. People say you need 5As, but I do know people who had 5As and didn't get the place because they didn't show enough of the above. Similarly, people with AAAAB have got in because they impressed the panel. Proof that qualifications aren't everything, even in arguably the most competitive undergraduate courses in the UK.

It's same everywhere. They don't just want grades, they want you to show a variety of other things that cannot be conveyed entirely through exam results. Communication skills, motivation, dedication and enthusiasm are key skills for almost all jobs to some degree, and a bunch of GCSEs/A-Levels/Highers/whatever cannot show all these skills.

 

[O L Leigh]

Well, for anyone still in education and considering a career on the railway I would like to draw attention again to what I said here.

O L Leigh

 

[Pumbaa]

^ And I'd second that for anyone genuinely gunning for a career in a particular sector (except having applicable experience obviously )

 

[TDK]

It couldn't be like that. All other jobs mianly look at the qualifications. If they didn't, what would be the point in them? I know it's hard to get a job as a train driver, but TOCs aren't allowed to push it as far as not even recognizing the qualifications the government requires all companies to as worthwhile things.

I have interviewed many applicants off the street for train drivers and to be honest the qualifications do not really make an impact as it would with other jobs. Firstly if the application form is not correctly filled in it is trashed immediately, for example, height and weight is sometimes left out, if so even with the highest of qualifications you would not even pass the sifting process as generally for every 5 vacancies 500 application forms are sifted. The main factors in considering an applicant is experience in the factors required for the role of a train driver, for instance if you have an engineering background, shift work experience, experience of being alone for long periods, have clear neat writing (you need to be able to read the form) and also some experience with working with the public. Attitude is also an important factor. Looking at your posts you have a lot to learn regarding how the railway works and need to look at the wider picture of what is involved in becoming a train driver. No matter how good an applicants qualifications are if they have an attitude on interview they have no chance of being considered for the position.

 

[Bill EWS]

Scott: Things will have changed a bit since I retired just over 2 years ago but there is still the age limit, which I believe is 21. I was 22 when I started on the railway I had to wait 11 years for my driving job, starting off as an engine cleaner then upgrade to Fireman and eventually to driver. Infact, if I hadn't moved depot once again it would have been 17 years before I would have got my driving job automatically via seniority.

Much depends on what type of train driver you wish to be. We didn't have that problem as we covered all types of train under B.R. but today you will either join a passenger or a freight company. Again, age comes into it therefore you are going to have to wait a while before you even get to the first stage.

In the meantime you could start work outside the railways until you come of age or you could possibly start on the freight side with the inital grade that allows you to move up to a trainman. Trainman, is a good place to strat as you not only learn about the running and shunting side of train work but wiil also work on trains and get to know drivers and how to work together and at the same time learn about what is required for driving.

No matter what your qualifications are you will have to pass the 'computer' test. I can't remember what you call it, but you will have to be tested for speed of thought and angility etc. If you can't get through that test qualifications do not mean much. However, being smarty pants on a computer doesn't mean you have the right stuff to make a driver as there is much more to it than that. Thank goodness computers as we know them weren't around in our days as we would probably never have passed and they would lost a lot of really great drivers, guards etc. The only thing resembling a computer that we knew about was an Abacus, which we were taught maths on at school. That's arithmatic to you. However, when I was 12-13 I was a dab hand at playing with Yo-Yo's winning at marbles and completing jig-saw puzzles so that probably was as close to shoot-em-ups on the computer as you could get back then. Unless you can count playing at Cowboys & Indians in the same way! Been a keen reader was also a great help.

I hope that this gives you some idea what to expect and how difficult it is to reach the goal of becoming a driver. But don't give up. It just takes a bit of patience and determination. I worked with a Bakery company, in the cinema, theatre and a sawmill factory long before I joined the railways, proving that there is another life outside the railways to learn and gain experience from. My generation left school at 15 and without any qualifications therefore you had to push yourself and find a suitable job and gain experience to rise above the everyday type of employment and earn reasonably wages. You don't get it all from a text book or a computer. My first wage was £1.0.6d (£1.2p). If you didn't push yourself you would be stuck on that type of low wage forever. My final wage was around £34k, so didn't do so bad in the long run.

Sorry I can't help you with passenger companies as I know little about how that department start train crew these days. But a trainman would certainly be a worthwhile job to start with.

 

[Darandio]

Like people have said many times on this thread, the best way is to get involved with a TOC in another capacity. And it just so happens that there is an excellent position going at Crosscountry.

http://www.crosscountrytrains.co.uk/AboutCrossCountry/Jobs/First_Class_Hosts_Newcastle/Default.aspx

I actually had an interview for the same position around four months ago so if anyone needs any help with the competencies etc, then just give me a PM.

 

[theblackwatch]

I think there's been some good advice here. I know several people who have become train drivers in recent years, some of who had previously worked in the industry and others who hadn't - so it is possible to come into the industry as a driver. Having said that, the people I know who have joined in this way had already had many years experience of 'work' - one had run his own business, and the other had been a bank manager.

I dont think you can expect to walk into a driving job at 18/21 with no experience of work (either within or outside the rail industry), no matter what paper qualifications you may have. One driver I know started his rail industry career soon after leaving school about 15 years ago when he (working at a station if my memory serves me right), and gradually progressed to where he is today, picking up an award at this year's National Rail Awards. As you are still at school Scott, joining the industry at a different level when you leave is probably the best way of achieveing your goal - that way, when a driver's job does come up, your experience would hopefully count in your favour and put you above other candidates.

 

[Mojo]

Even for some ticket office positions they ask for past experience of working in a retail or customer service environment, so I'd certaintly recommend getting experience outside of the railways - maybe starting a part time job in a shop when you finish your GCSEs/move onto A-Levels.

 

[Scott]

Thanks for all the replies. I think from what yous are saying it's possible to become a train driver without any previous experience in rail, but it's much harder to the point where you mightaswell just get a job in rail?

And qualifications do come in handy, but really just a pass at maths and english would be enough e.g. to a TOC an A* maths GCSE is the same as a C maths GCSE?

Or have I mis-understood. :-P

Also, would you reccomend what rail jobs to gain experience to be a driver would be good for a person living in newcastle? I don't know if this is really a job, but i'd quite like to be a speaker: it seemed fun when i was getting a train from newcastle - york with my parents to go on holiday, the speakers who announce the trains must've been a boy and a girl (i think they sit in a tower in the station?) and they were laughing and joking over the speakers when announcing a train. it sounded like "platform 4 for the *giggles* 12:47 crosscountry *bursts out laughing* service to ...*giggles*... london."

Either there was laughing gas in their workplace, or they were having a fun time and enjoyed their job.

 

[westcoaster]

you seem keen to learn and are taking in what is being said, which is always good, qualification grades do not matter, but saying that still work hard at them you never know when you will need them.

me personally i passed my gcse's, went to college where i did travel+ leisure and tourism, while working part time at tesc0, i then worked for easyjet where i learnt caa rules and regs plus handling money and selling tickets (college helped with doing travle and torism), i then got my first railway job as a conductor (selling points on the application for selling tickets, handling money, following rules and customer service), now im a driver. thats how i did it, so it can be done.

sorry if it shard to read follow im tired.

 

[Mintona]

Scott, like yourself I am trying to work myself up through the industry. I did my A Levels (although I didn't try too hard) and, similarly to westcoaster above, worked part time at Morrisons for 18 months, giving me valuable customer service experience. Then I applied to a few companies, got a few knockbacks, but now I work on the platforms for one of the TOCs. So I have experience, both in and out of the railway industry, and also in customer service, and I am still only 18!

And don't worry your pretty little self about no jobs coming up internally for driving. Trust me, they do. We get an Internal Vacancy List every week or so, and it is rare that there are no driving jobs at all. But very few are also advertised externally.

 

[Scott]

you seem keen to learn and are taking in what is being said, which is always good, qualification grades do not matter, but saying that still work hard at them you never know when you will need them.

me personally i passed my gcse's, went to college where i did travel+ leisure and tourism, while working part time at tesc0, i then worked for easyjet where i learnt caa rules and regs plus handling money and selling tickets (college helped with doing travle and torism), i then got my first railway job as a conductor (selling points on the application for selling tickets, handling money, following rules and customer service), now im a driver. thats how i did it, so it can be done.

sorry if it shard to read follow im tired.

Thanks. Could i just ask if you enjoy your job, or is it really horrible.

And don't worry your pretty little self about no jobs coming up internally for driving. Trust me, they do. We get an Internal Vacancy List every week or so, and it is rare that there are no driving jobs at all. But very few are also advertised externally.

Oh good. I thought a driver job coming up was rare even internally. :-P Thanks for telling me that, I feel happier now.